What about Maccabees?

[Rolltide]

Well, just another question.

How come the Catholic church needs a whole catechism? What is wrong with just using the Bible?

Another point regarding this. The Catechism DOES use the Bible! If you search through it, you’ll see that it cites every relevant passage relating to the topic that it’s talking about. Protestants believe in the individual interpretation of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit protects the Church’s view. Further, the Church’s view is in large part the combined interpretation of thousands of the most brilliant Biblical scholars that have lived over the last 2,000 years. Protestantism has thousands of different interpretations of the Bible. Who is to know which is right? The Catholic Church believes in holding a consensus view. In fact, that quite literally is what the word “catholic” means! The English word “catholic”, in the general sense, simply means “universal”. So, the Catholic Church is the “universal” church, with a “universal” belief providing unity instead of disunity.

I also wanted to expand on my point from above. We had gotten to St. Jerome in the 400s AD. Finally, all of scripture was combined into a single Bible in a single language (Latin). But then, what happens? The Roman Empire collapses, sending Europe into the Dark Ages! Do you have any idea what the literacy rate was in Western Europe during the Dark Ages? Well, from about 500 AD to about 800-900 AD, it averaged just over 1%! If you weren’t in the clergy or a lord, you almost certainly couldn’t read. Further, books had to be copied by hand, and paper didn’t exist yet. Parchment was used instead, and that comes from animal hide. A single sheepskin could only produce a mere four pages of parchment. This meant that due to the labor involved and the expensive materials, you probably couldn’t afford a Bible anyway. One historian estimated that if you converted the expense into today’s dollars, that each Bible ranged from $20,000 to $50,000 in cost! This is also where the Protestant rumor comes from that “Catholics chained down their Bibles so that ordinary people couldn’t read them.” Not quite… they chained them so they wouldn’t be STOLEN! In fact, pretty much ALL books were chained down during that era. And in any case, ordinary people couldn’t read anyway!

So… this creates another problem. If almost no one could read, how could Christianity survive? Obviously they couldn’t read the Bible themselves. So… the clergy learned to read, and preached to them from the pulpit. (Once again… oral tradition!) Further, it was still often difficult to learn all of the various stories from the Bible. So, churches began adding paintings, statues, and stained glass windows to VISUALLY tell the stories. We weren’t worshiping those images, but we WERE using them to help teach illiterates about the Bible! So, for 20% of Christianity, we have no unified Bible, and for about HALF of Christianity, there were virtually no Christians (apart from clergy) that could read it ANYWAY! If we’re supposed to be using the Bible alone, without any help from an organized Church to interpret it, then Christianity was in REAL trouble, wasn’t it?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Well, just another question.

How come the Catholic church needs a whole catechism? What is wrong with just using the Bible?

Well, the thing is that our understanding of Bible is a bit different when to how protestants understand it. Bible is great. I mean, it is a word of God, as we confess during every Holy Mass. But we don’t take out Bible and decide what the Bible says. I don’t think any human is able to fully understand the Book. St. Peter summarizes it in his letter:

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Now, this was written almost 2000 years ago. Imagine how it’s now when people live in a totally different society with totally different costumes and understanding of thing, when they no longer speak the ancient languages etc.

Jesus founded his Church on Earth with an authority to teach. This Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. It is thus only the Church that has the authority to interpret the text. After all, Bible is a Catholic book!

I hope this explains why we have a Catechism. We don’t read Bible and interpret it for ourselves. We go to the Church and She helps us. Up to that the Bible doesn’t answer all questions and it doesn’t contain all Truths passed to us by Christ and the Apostles. Thus we read the Catechism to learn what the Church teaches.

 

[Gamera]

The idea of purgatory bothers me. In my thinking, it means that the horrible death that Jesus endured for me, was just not enough!

“Enough” for what? Enough to pay the eternal punishment due for our sins, yes. That has nothing to do with purgatory. On the contrary, everybody in purgatory is going to heaven.

 

[Gamera]

But what of praying for the dead? Once you are dead, that is it! It’s too late, afterward.

Too late for what? Too late to be saved, yes, but everybody in purgatory has already been saved and is on their way to heaven.

Nobody prays for the salvation of souls in purgatory. There’d be no point — by definition, they already are saved. We pray only that their time in purgatory be shortened or eased.

 

[Gamera]

The Catholic church teaches that there is more than just venial and mortal sins. What about sacrilege? Simony?

Each sin is equally as bad as the other.

Scripture itself distinguishes between mortal and venial sins. “All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal,” 1 John 5:17.

 

[Starfish]

Had the eye surgery and all is well.

Now awaiting biopsy results for early cancer.

Thanks to everyone who has written. I’ll have to reread much of this. I’m still not understanding why those that died with the idols in their clothes are going to Heaven. It just seems wrong that they can die with the thought that their idols will protect them and that everything is just rosy and OK.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

historyb, thanks for your response.

But what of praying for the dead? Once you are dead, that is it! It’s too late, afterward.

What about the soldiers with the idols sewn into their clothes? What a nasty thing – why should they be given Heaven?

Wrong attitude. What if Christ had it?

I don’t know if you were specifically only looking for Latin explanations, I only offer my Orthodox one.

Not we, but Christ in us. We pray for the salvation of all, because Christ came to save, and if we live in Him, and He in us, then saving is part of that.

We pray in time, but God answers in eternity. His hand is not shortened that He cannot save.

 

[Eileen_T]

Wrong attitude. What if Christ had it?

I don’t know if you were specifically only looking for Latin explanations, I only offer my Orthodox one.

Not we, but Christ in us. We pray for the salvation of all, because Christ came to save, and if we live in Him, and He in us, then saving is part of that.

We pray in time, but God answers in eternity. His hand is not shortened that He cannot save.

I can pray today for my great-great-grandfather who supposedly committed suicide decades ago, and those prayers are taken into account by Almighty God at the moment of his death when he faces his particular judgment.

Because to God, ALL time is happening NOW!!!

 

[Keikiolu]

Had the eye surgery and all is well.

Hoorah…!

Now awaiting biopsy results for early cancer.

Yikes. Best hopes and prayers to 'ya…!

Thanks to everyone who has written. I’ll have to reread much of this. I’m still not understanding why those that died with the idols in their clothes are going to Heaven. It just seems wrong that they can die with the thought that their idols will protect them and that everything is just rosy and OK.

Since no one can know, perfectly, whether any person is utterly damned or in purgatory, or in heaven,… it’s only charitable that we hope for the best and try to help those who are gone.

Thus,… it’s just being nice and generously charitable, which we’re told to do as a matter of course.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I can pray today for my great-great-grandfather who supposedly committed suicide decades ago, and those prayers are taken into account by Almighty God at the moment of his death when he faces his particular judgment.

Because to God, ALL time is happening NOW!!!

Give rest to the soul of Thy servant who has fallen asleep
And establish him in paradise
Where the souls of the righteous and the just, O Lord
Shine like the stars of Heaven
Give rest to soul of Thy servant who has fallen asleep
Overlooking his every transgression.

 

[Starfish]

Hoorah…!

Yikes. Best hopes and prayers to 'ya…!

Since no one can know, perfectly, whether any person is utterly damned or in purgatory, or in heaven,… it’s only charitable that we hope for the best and try to help those who are gone.

Thus,… it’s just being nice and generously charitable, which we’re told to do as a matter of course.

Thanks for your help! You sure do make me smile.

 

[Stillkickin]

I was asked a question once, “would you rather have a just God or a merciful God?” Well the answer is we have both and purgatory is one place where we can see both the just and merciful God. God requires that we be responsible for our sins. If God were only just, probably none of us would be able to enter heaven, but in his mercy we are able to atone for those sins in purgatory and be purified so we may enter heaven.

The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a temporary place of purification where those who have died undergo a period of expiation before being allowed into heaven, those bound for hell will go to hell. Souls go to purgatory because “nothing unclean” can enter heaven (Rev. 21: 27). All souls that are sent to purgatory are destined to ultimately enter heaven once all stain of sin has been removed through purification.
Jesus died on the cross to redeem us. It is still up to us to do our part. probably a poor analogy but here goes, if you were to break a window playing ball, your dad would probably forgive you for doing it, but he would probably make you pay for the replacement window. The is purgatory. We are forgiven for our sins, but we must still atone for them before entering heaven.

Stillkickin

 

[Starfish]

I can pray today for my great-great-grandfather who supposedly committed suicide decades ago, and those prayers are taken into account by Almighty God at the moment of his death when he faces his particular judgment.

Because to God, ALL time is happening NOW!!!

Now I am confused. You can commit suicide and still go to Heaven?

So then, is it possible that Judas is in Heaven? Committing suicide, rather than asking God for help is just so wrong.

 

[st_lucy]

Now I am confused. You can commit suicide and still go to Heaven?

So then, is it possible that Judas is in Heaven? Committing suicide, rather than asking God for help is just so wrong.

Hello Starfish,

I am glad to hear that you are doing great.

Now you need to remember only God can judge weather someone goes to heaven or not. We can hope that before one dies that he would have the chance to repent. We can never know what one is thinking when they commit suicide. We know that one who does commit suicide they are probably not in fully mentally in control. This is were we ask that God may forgive this poor soul. But we also know that God is a very loving Father and will forgive us if we repent and turn to Him even at the very last second of ones life.

 

[captaincoog]

Hi Starfish, good to have you aboard!

Purgatory brings the saved soul the detatchment from sin, that is, their liking of sin that remained at the time they died.

The souls in Purgatory died in the love of God, but had not perfected their love for him in this life.

We say that they had imperfect love for God. So while this love still exists and is acceptable to God, who “remembers that we are but dust”, He still requires us to be perfectly free from the attachment to sins and to have a perfect love for Him before He can let us into Heaven. After all, you are still you, and I am still me, even after we die. We need to undergo a complete change of heart before entering Heaven.

The book of Revelation says that “no unclean or impure thing will ever enter Heaven”. No one in heaven will have the liking of sin, the attachment to sin, or the habit of sin, for all eternity. If this were not the case, heaven could become polluted and it would be like the fall in Genesis all over again.

We are encouraged in this life to persevere in goods works and penance through the acceptance of suffering with the aim of being free from the personal attachment to sin. St Paul says that God will complete the good work He began in you. If that is not completed in this life, it must be finished off in the next. This is not to say that we earn Heaven. Only the Cross of Christ and His resurection can do that.But the damaging effects of sin must be purged out of us in order to get to heaven.

A few people in this life attain this. These people the CC calls Saints. They had no need of purgation after death because they lived their lives in sacrifice and self denial to the point that they had absolutely no attachment to sin and the world when they died.

I hope this helps you understand the teaching of the Catholic Church more clearly. This is what the Church has taught for 2000 years, not 100, 200 or 400, but the entire 2000 years of Church History.

Keep the good questions coming. I think some people took your questions as fighting words, as there are many non catholics that come onto these forums picking fights by asking questions, not to learn, but to try to show a flaw in Catholic theology. Considering that the teaching of the Church has been protected and guided by the Holy spirit for 2000 years, they do not succeed.

 

[desert_cath]

i dunno if this is out of topic but when you say “once you die that’s it. It’s either Hell, or Heaven, or Heaven via purification” is this what the dogma of Particular Judgment means? that immediately after death souls leaving their bodies in a state of grace, but in need of purification are cleansed in Purgatory whereas souls that are perfectly pure are at once admitted to the beatific vision of the God; and those who depart in actual mortal sin, or merely with original sin, are at once consigned to eternal punishment, the quality of which corresponds to their sin? does that mean that the souls of the departed will have to wait for the second coming in the particular place they are in? i’m a little confused and appreciate any help.

 

[Starfish]

I was asked a question once, “would you rather have a just God or a merciful God?” Well the answer is we have both and purgatory is one place where we can see both the just and merciful God. God requires that we be responsible for our sins. If God were only just, probably none of us would be able to enter heaven, but in his mercy we are able to atone for those sins in purgatory and be purified so we may enter heaven.

The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a temporary place of purification where those who have died undergo a period of expiation before being allowed into heaven, those bound for hell will go to hell. Souls go to purgatory because “nothing unclean” can enter heaven (Rev. 21: 27). All souls that are sent to purgatory are destined to ultimately enter heaven once all stain of sin has been removed through purification.
Jesus died on the cross to redeem us. It is still up to us to do our part. probably a poor analogy but here goes, if you were to break a window playing ball, your dad would probably forgive you for doing it, but he would probably make you pay for the replacement window. The is purgatory. We are forgiven for our sins, but we must still atone for them before entering heaven.

Stillkickin

I still do not believe in Purgatory. Jesus paid the price for us. When we die, if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior and we ARE born again, Heaven awaits us.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

You are correct that Maccabees causes problems. For instance, the sin committed was clearly idolatry. The soldiers died with what has been always taught was a mortal sin, and they died with it unconfessed, unrepented indeed they were right in the middle of committing their mortal sin.

There is just no way either in Catholic Tradition or Scripture for those soldiers to be in any state other than eternally condemned. If such a sin can be purged, then the Universalists are correct, everyone will be saved, you can even worship false gods and will be saved. Something that is contrary to scripture and Tradition.

JJ

 

[AliciaCL]

Thank you ROLLTIDE (posts #35 and #41) for the great summary on how the Bible was complied and early church history. This is so very important. It is so hard to break through the Protestant die hard adherence to “sola scriptura.” Protestants just don’t think about it and their clergy evade discussion of these points. A great irony is that Protestants ever adopted the Bible at all. Ironically— and I’m sure inadvertently, they grant the RCC great credence because it was the RCC that complied the Bible, decided what would be included and what would not with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. None of the Reformers ever set up their own councils to reconsider what should and should not be included in the Bible. They never questioned it at all. By accepting the Bible as it was, they necessarily accepted the RCC’s selection and its power and authority to make the decisions. Also, Protestants generally disregard oral tradition. Not sure why. It seems easy to understand that the Apostles taught orally for years based on Christ’s direct teaching to them, long before the gospels were ever even written. Then for hundreds of years the oral tradition was the primary method of teaching the faith. From the oral tradition, the real presence and other concepts were clearly established yet somehow after the Reformers so much if not all was simply set aside in the Protestant denominations. This recognition of history is so often sited by Catholic converts as one of the key turning points. Sola scriptura is so incredibly illogical with the knowledge of church history. I’m not dissing Protestants. They haven’t been informed of these things. It’s just amazing how strong the blind adherence to this sola scriptura concept there is when it was simply taught to them as an absolute truth. This is an excellent example of Pope Benedict XVI’s assertion that reason and faith must go hand in hand.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I still do not believe in Purgatory. Jesus paid the price for us. When we die, if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior and we ARE born again, Heaven awaits us.

Are we the same in Heaven as we are now, or are we changed somehow?

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 - 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality.

54And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.

That change from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortality, is purgatory.