What About Mormons?

[BigBill]

I don’t know, Catholics. It just seems to me that the Mormons have it going on. I mean, doesn’t it make sense to you that Christ would have wanted to make his Gospel available to the people on the American continent too? And seriously, isn’t divinity the only worthy goal to which we should aspire? Wasn’t it Jesus who said that we must be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? How esle can we do that than to become divine like the Father?

It just seems that Catholicism is so corrupt, and that the Church pretty much fell apart without Jesus around. I find it hard to believe that you’ll honestly deny the good points made by Mormonism.

I’m not a Mormon myself. I’m kinda “between religions” right now, after a bad experience with the Catholic Church, and then a brief stint in a local church called the “Reformed Norse Christian Assembly,” I am considering the Mormons. What do you guys all think?

 

[TimOliv]

I don’t know, Catholics. It just seems to me that the Mormons have it going on. I mean, doesn’t it make sense to you that Christ would have wanted to make his Gospel available to the people on the American continent too? And seriously, isn’t divinity the only worthy goal to which we should aspire? Wasn’t it Jesus who said that we must be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? How esle can we do that than to become divine like the Father?

It just seems that Catholicism is so corrupt, and that the Church pretty much fell apart without Jesus around. I find it hard to believe that you’ll honestly deny the good points made by Mormonism.

I’m not a Mormon myself. I’m kinda “between religions” right now, after a bad experience with the Catholic Church, and then a brief stint in a local church called the “Reformed Norse Christian Assembly,” I am considering the Mormons. What do you guys all think?

Wow, I never before saw a heresy sandwich. Today I am complete.

 

[BigBill]

Sir, I’m afraid you’re going to have to explain. If I said anything wrong correct me, but don’t just accuse me of heresy without explaining yourself. That is exactly the kind of doctrinal bigotry that drove me from the Church in the first place. Catholics, I think, have the tendency to make claims, and then not support them. It has been my experience so far that the reason they don’t support their claims is because they can’t. Is that the case with you? Maybe.

Either way, I’d appreciate a little grounding for accusations of that sort. I’m trying to arrive at what’s true for me. If that’s not the same as what’s true for you, you’re going to have to tell me why. I’m all for civil discussion and disagreement, but I take great offense at wanton accusations.

 

[TimOliv]

Sir, I’m afraid you’re going to have to explain. If I said anything wrong correct me, but don’t just accuse me of heresy without explaining yourself. That is exactly the kind of doctrinal bigotry that drove me from the Church in the first place. Catholics, I think, have the tendency to make claims, and then not support them. It has been my experience so far that the reason they don’t support their claims is because they can’t. Is that the case with you? Maybe.

Either way, I’d appreciate a little grounding for accusations of that sort. I’m trying to arrive at what’s true for me. If that’s not the same as what’s true for you, you’re going to have to tell me why. I’m all for civil discussion and disagreement, but I take great offense at wanton accusations.

Well let’s play a little game. Its going to be called “So How Gullible People Are”

Let’s begin.

An angel came to me and told me to interpret a new testament to the bible. I’d love to show you where the original texts were, but only I can see them.

As for the langugage I translated them from? I’m afraid I can only speak it when I am translating them, so I can’t tell you anything about that either.

Now I’m going to condone polygamy.

Not only will people buy into it, but eventually we’ll even get our own state.

 

[BigBill]

Look, man. I don’t think the history of Mormon is quite as Saturday-morning-cartoon-ish as you sarcastically imply. And even if Mormonism, which is not my chosen religion at the time (as I have none, really), doesn’t turn out to be trustworthy, isn’t there some worth to its claims? You have yet to address those issues.

Also, if you’re going to start giving history lessons, unless you have a doctorate in history education (as if there were such a thing), you’re going to need to show me a little thing I call facts. If you don’t do that, I’ll assume you can’t.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

DONT DO IT. I checked out the Mormon church(I use church lightly) and they are nice and all,but once they have you sucked in–watch out. They believe that they become God’s themselves. That should be enough to turn you away. Dare I say they have cultish qualities.

I have cousins who are Mormons and they are great people, but there beliefs are way off base.

When you are saved you have a positional place in heaven and get to share the KINGDOM with Jesus but you can never become a God.

I am sure right now they are using the bible to show you that they use the bible(they did that with me as well). Then they will start using the Book of Mormon and in all honesty–that is THEIR BIBLE

Im not catholic so I do not say this to convince you of the catholic faith. I say this to convince you to run away and fast to a bible believing faith. Mormons are truly a man-made faith. What is the guys name again they follow? I forgot his name. Is it James something?They actually gave me the Book of Mormons and I threw it away. I should have kept it!

Anyway, PLEASE PLEASE DONT JOIN!! I SAY THIS WITH LOVE!!!

AFH

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Look, man. I don’t think the history of Mormon is quite as Saturday-morning-cartoon-ish as you sarcastically imply. And even if Mormonism, which is not my chosen religion at the time (as I have none, really), doesn’t turn out to be trustworthy, isn’t there some worth to its claims? You have yet to address those issues.

Also, if you’re going to start giving history lessons, unless you have a doctorate in history education (as if there were such a thing), you’re going to need to show me a little thing I call facts. If you don’t do that, I’ll assume you can’t.

Hi,
When they use biblical principle, yes they are correct, but mormonism goes way deeper then that. They really truly put all their beliefs into the guy who wrote the book of mormons. They felt he was a prophet. At the end of the Apostolic age or Jesus’s ressurection(not sure which)either way was the end of true prophecy.

AFH

 

[tundramom]

I’m an ex-Mormon. What is it that appeals to you about it?

I left Mormonism and was born again in an AoG church. Then I became Catholic. I truly believe that Mormonism is a cult. They have distorted the nature of God Himself.

What questions do you have about the Mormon church that appeals to you? I may be able to help.

Don’t do it… please don’t join them until you know all the facts about what and who they are.

Mormons are wonderful people, but their doctrines ARE heresy.

in Christ
Steph

 

[BigBill]

Well, folks:

I know the Mormons believe humans can attain divinity. I don’t have much of a problem with it. In fact, it seems reasonable to me. Once again: “You must become perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Those are the words of Jesus. How can one become perfect as the Father is perfect without becoming divine? I’m not sure I can see any other way of fulfilling that command.

I’m intrigued by the fact that you all have such strong opinions against the Latter-Day Saints, but I would like to know why. Explain to me in detail, especially those of you who have been in the Mormon Church, or have family who are.

It seems to me, also, that for God’s creation to become divine in itself only exalts and glorifies God all the more. No?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Well, folks:

I know the Mormons believe humans can attain divinity. I don’t have much of a problem with it. In fact, it seems reasonable to me. Once again: “You must become perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Those are the words of Jesus. How can one become perfect as the Father is perfect without becoming divine? I’m not sure I can see any other way of fulfilling that command.

I’m intrigued by the fact that you all have such strong opinions against the Latter-Day Saints, but I would like to know why. Explain to me in detail, especially those of you who have been in the Mormon Church, or have family who are.

It seems to me, also, that for God’s creation to become divine in itself only exalts and glorifies God all the more. No?

Hi Bill,
Ill have to let the ex-mormons help you more then I can.
Being made perfect and being divine are two different things. We are made perfect when we enter heaven, but we are not divine. Only God is divine. I am not a theologian-just an average sinner who has accepted Jesus as my savior and committed my life to follow him. I could be wrong here–but we as humans do not know how we are made perfect(our tiny minds couldnt comprehend it anyway)There is so much in the bible about people claiming to have the Lord in their presence and they are deceiving themselves.
Start with Ezekial 21:29, 22:28, and Micah 3:11. I would simply suggest that when they tell you something from the book of mormons --see if the bible backs it up. If it doesnt–it is a lie!

Gods speed to you. I will pray for you.

AFH

 

[tundramom]

Well, folks:

I know the Mormons believe humans can attain divinity. I don’t have much of a problem with it. In fact, it seems reasonable to me. Once again: “You must become perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Those are the words of Jesus. How can one become perfect as the Father is perfect without becoming divine? I’m not sure I can see any other way of fulfilling that command.

I’m intrigued by the fact that you all have such strong opinions against the Latter-Day Saints, but I would like to know why. Explain to me in detail, especially those of you who have been in the Mormon Church, or have family who are.

It seems to me, also, that for God’s creation to become divine in itself only exalts and glorifies God all the more. No?

Hi Bill,
Why do I have such strong opinions about Mormonism. I must clarify that I am not opposed to Mormons themselves. It is only the doctrines that are offensive.
I come from a family of Mormons. I grew up in Utah and am the only member of my family in 5 generations to escape. Because of this (in part) I have had no contact with my family in about 7 years. I’ve sent cards, I’ve tried visiting them in Utah once, but to no avail.
The beginning of Mormonism is vague. There are several versions of Joseph Smith’s “first vision” account other than the one they finally settled on.
Mormons believe that we were created as “intelligences” in a pre-existance born of the union of a heavenly father and mother. Here’s the story as I was taught it.
In heaven, in this pre-existant state, there was a sort of “council of the gods” which met to determine who would become the savior of earth. Lucifer made his case, as did Jesus. Lucifer wanted to become the savior and wanted to force all of the souls to adhere to the principles of mormonism in order to return to heaven. Jesus wanted to give us free agency and the ability to choose to do ‘right’. Jesus was chosen by this council and Lucifer rebelled against the council’s decision and took 1/3 of the population to his side. Because of this rebellion, he was cast out of heaven and the souls that went with him became his demons.
Adam and Eve were born into the garden, but they could not procreate while in the garden. So in order that the rest of the human race could be born, they had to eat of the fruit of the tree. To a Mormon, this is a good thing. They were driven out of the garden and then and only then could they have sex and create the human race.

Ok, that’s only the beginning of it… what do you see in this account that doesn’t gel with the rest of Christianity? What in this story do you see that differs from the Biblical account of creation?

I am going to go do a few chores and will check back in a little bit to see if you have had a chance to respond and then we’ll go from there, sound good?

in Christ
Steph

 

[majick275]

BigBill:

I don’t know, Catholics. It just seems to me that the Mormons have it going on. I mean, doesn’t it make sense to you that Christ would have wanted to make his Gospel available to the people on the American continent too? And seriously, isn’t divinity the only worthy goal to which we should aspire? Wasn’t it Jesus who said that we must be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? How esle can we do that than to become divine like the Father?

It just seems that Catholicism is so corrupt, and that the Church pretty much fell apart without Jesus around. I find it hard to believe that you’ll honestly deny the good points made by Mormonism.

I’m not a Mormon myself. I’m kinda “between religions” right now, after a bad experience with the Catholic Church, and then a brief stint in a local church called the “Reformed Norse Christian Assembly,” I am considering the Mormons. What do you guys all think?

well I’ll tell you what I think,
First of all, Yes I DO think Christ wanted his gospel preached on the American continent. That’s why Catholic missionaries came hundreds of years before Joseph Smith was ever born and taught the true gospel of Christ straight form the Bible.

No I don’t believe divinity is a goal for us to aspire to. Jesus himself told us to pay attention to the writings of the prophet Isaiah. Isaiah made it very clear that there is only one God…ever! past, present or future.

Jesus told us to become perfect but we know for a factg that we cannot do it ourselves. We are only made perfect by Christ. We are Gods creations and can only share in his divinity. We do that by being brought into his presence and sharing in the beatific vision. This is a gift that is freely given but only received by acting on beliefs in true faith and following Christ. His grace is made manifest in the sacraments and works to bring us closer to him until eventually we are brought into God’s presence to SHARE in his divinity; NOT to become divine ourselves.

Individual Catholics have been corrupt, sometimes in large numbers and with disastrous results. BUT, the church itself has always been protected by Christ just like he said in the Bible. How on earth can one assert that the church “fell apart” after Christ? The explosive growth has continued unabated. The teachings today are the same as the original teachings. Any study of the ECFs and original scriptures verifies this.Catholic doctrine is Christian doctrine, same as he originally presented it to us.

What “good points” do you perceive as being made by mormons? I see a religion that has “flip-flopped” it’s doctrines and practices multiple times. I see it’s original teachings as racist, sexist and blasphemous. I see a serious misunderstanding of the role of the Temple. I was a Mormon for many years, served in a bishopric and worked in the Temple. Only in the Catholic church have I found the “fullness” of the Gospel.

I think the (mostly form the “norse christian” thing) that you are confused and haven’t studied Christianity very thoroughly. I think the racist teachings of Mormonism probably appeal to you. I’m sorry you had a bad experience with the Catholkic church but please remember it is full of people. People mess up and are imperfect. I know do/am. Look to God through prayer and the Bible. Study history to understand the context of the Bible.

Jesus didn’t fail when he established his church. He has remained with us always just as he said. There is no “covenant race” that is entitled to special benefits anymore. Christ made it so that everyone can come to God and receive all he has to offer.

That’s what I think.

 

[BCPoulsen]

Hi,
When they use biblical principle, yes they are correct, but mormonism goes way deeper then that. They really truly put all their beliefs into the guy who wrote the book of mormons. They felt he was a prophet. At the end of the Apostolic age or Jesus’s ressurection(not sure which)either way was the end of true prophecy.

AFH

You speak the truth. True prophecy did end with the death of the Apostles as was foretold by the Apostles themselves as well as by earlier Prophets and even by The Lord, Jesus Christ (See Matthew Chapter 24 for example). Just because revelation ended does not mean it is no longer important. Anyone who is aware of the world around them knows that we need guidance from God now more than ever. Is it really so obsurd to accept that God can still speak through living Prophets? Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.(Amos 3:7). That God would again speak through prophets and restore His Kingdom was also foretold as recorded in the Old and New Tesaments.(see Dan. 2:44, Joel 2:28, Rom. 11:25, Rev. 14:6 as just a few examples).

It truely is a marvelous time in which we live as Gospel truths, Priesthood Authority, and the very Kingdom of God is restored on earth. That we can listen to living Prophets who share Gods will pertinent to our day, to our lives. That we can be part of this great work in preparation for the secound coming of our Savior.

How can we know if this is real? You don’t have to trust my words. Find out for youself:

Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Book of Mormon - Moroni 10:3-5)

 

[FCEGM]

Well, folks:

I know the Mormons believe humans can attain divinity. I don’t have much of a problem with it. In fact, it seems reasonable to me. Once again: “You must become perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Those are the words of Jesus. How can one become perfect as the Father is perfect without becoming divine? I’m not sure I can see any other way of fulfilling that command.

I’m intrigued by the fact that you all have such strong opinions against the Latter-Day Saints, but I would like to know why. Explain to me in detail, especially those of you who have been in the Mormon Church, or have family who are.

It seems to me, also, that for God’s creation to become divine in itself only exalts and glorifies God all the more. No?

Bill, something you need to ask yourself: “just what kind of God do I want to worship?”

Do you want to worship the One, True, Eternal, Unchanging, Omnipotent God, Creator of all that is? Or do you want to worship a god that is limited by a materiality that he, himself, did not create but only put into order - a god made more in your image rather than you in his?

I pray you are moved by grace to seek the Uncreated Creator Spirit Who brought all that is into existence, and Who has reached down to man to reveal to man something of His Personal Being, as One God in Three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and Who in His mercy raises man by the Incarnation of the Divine Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit to become “partakers of the divine nature”, as St. Peter wrote.

As Christ Jesus tells us, “God IS Love”, i.e., Love constitutes His very Being. He has nothing outside of Himself that He needs for satisfaction. We however, have been created out of His sheer magnanimity to enjoy eternally He Who Is Love; and for our Happiness He, by His grace through Christ Jesus, invites us to participate in His divine nature, which is Love. Again, there is nothing necessary in God’s love for man, but it IS necessary for man’s eternal happiness to love He Who Is Love.

God is the One and Only perfection - perfection that has never been otherwise in any degree. A Catholic would - or should -say that any striving is itself brought about by grace which always takes the lead. IOW, God has set the goal and He alone supplies what we need to achieve it. We cooperate with His grace, and even that cooperation has been stirred to action by grace. We participate in the One Perfection of the Son; it is not something we claim as our own except by our identity with Him Who presents to His Father as His own our feeble works.

Don’t seek for anything less than this.

 

[tundramom]

How can we know if this is real? You don’t have to trust my words. Find out for youself:

This is meaningless and an empty promise BC Poulsen. The Moroni “challenge” completely makes you have to choose between the words of Jesus Himself “I will never leave you nor forsake you… The Gates of Hell will not prevail”

Or Joseph Smith: “no man has ever held a church together… Peter… Paul… even Jesus Himself… His followers ran away from him… the Mormons have not left me yet!”.

Who do you choose to believe? Jesus or Joseph? That is the true crux of the matter.

I choose to believe that Jesus meant what He said.

in Christ
Steph

 

[BigBill]

I think the racist teachings of Mormonism probably appeal to you.

Just out of curiousity, why is it that of all the things I’ve said, you infer racism? This appears to be yet another unsupported accusation made in haste and with nervousness. Please, be a little more reasonable. Just because I think I can see a little truth in Mormonism doesn’t make me a racist, as far as I’m concerned.

Now, as to everyone trying to steer me away from Mormonism:

I notice that a lot of the argument against it seems to be that Mormonism doesn’t jive with the Bible. That might be a good argument if you had any reason to believe that it was the Bible that I thought was true. I am no longer convinced of that. At this point in my life, the Bible and the Book of Mormon are just two books. If they disagree, it could just as easily be the Bible that’s wrong, in my opinion, as the Book of Mormon.

As for claims made by Mormonism that I think hold some weight, or are at least worthy of discussion:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12.We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

1. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Most of that sounds very agreeable to me, and I think it must sound fairly good to you, too. A lot of it is the same as Catholicism. I can’t say I know for sure about the whole Zion on the American continent thing, but I am not yet willing to rule it out, either. This is a process of discernment to me.

 

[BCPoulsen]

This is meaningless and an empty promise BC Poulsen. The Moroni “challenge” completely makes you have to choose between the words of Jesus Himself “I will never leave you nor forsake you… The Gates of Hell will not prevail”

Or Joseph Smith: “no man has ever held a church together… Peter… Paul… even Jesus Himself… His followers ran away from him… the Mormons have not left me yet!”.

Who do you choose to believe? Jesus or Joseph? That is the true crux of the matter.

I choose to believe that Jesus meant what He said.

in Christ
Steph

“Meaningless and an empty promise”, to seek an answer from God? I guess the words of James were empty and meaningless as well when he counselled “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”(James 1:5)

Is it a choice between Jesus or Joseph or is it between the interpretation of the scriptures by man vs an understanding of the word of God with the help of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus never has forsaken us and the restoration of the gospel is evidence that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

Most of that sounds very agreeable to me, and I think it must sound fairly good to you, too. A lot of it is the same as Catholicism.

That’s a major difficulty in discerning the truth of Mormonism: the words the LDS employ are often the same as those employed by Catholics (and Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox), but with vastly different meanings to be discovered once one searches deeper. For example, your #1:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

What kind of God do they believe in, i.e., what is the nature of the Mormon god? And, as I suggested you ask yourself in an earlier post, what kind of God do you want to believe in, or, better yet, what kind of God is worthy of belief?

These articles can help you answer that question:

carl-olson.com/articles/mormonism_envoy56.html

envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.3/story3.html

envoymagazine.com/backissues/3.2/story2.html

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Wow, I never before saw a heresy sandwich. Today I am complete.

Well let’s play a little game. Its going to be called “So How Gullible People Are”

Let’s begin.

An angel came to me and told me to interpret a new testament to the bible. I’d love to show you where the original texts were, but only I can see them.

As for the langugage I translated them from? I’m afraid I can only speak it when I am translating them, so I can’t tell you anything about that either.

Now I’m going to condone polygamy.

Not only will people buy into it, but eventually we’ll even get our own state.

Ok, thats not funny. Certain stuff might seem weird or absurd to us but responding like this is meaningless and causes needless strife. We are not going to get people to take Catholicism seriously when we put out this kind of low level stuff.

 

[jmcrae]

Once again, as with everything else, test the claims against history.

Does history actually show that what they claim is true? Or when you point out inconsistencies, does it turn into a “spiritual reality” that somehow had no historical impact?

For example, in the case of the Mormon claim that the lost tribes of Israel came to North America to spread the Gospel -

1. Did the Native North Americans actually know the Gospel before Catholic and Protestant missionaries arrived here? (Was there any form of Christian religion existing in North America anywhere at that time?)
2. Does the description of North America given by Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon bear any resemblance to actual pre-Columbian North America?

This is just a starting place, but when investigating any religion, test their claims against reality. If they say, “This happened on such and such a date,” double check and see whether there are other historians who would agree that yes, that happened on or near that date, or yes, that is one of several possible dates when that could have happened - and they will probably add that it was weird and a lot of religious fanatics interpreted it this way, and “we” wouldn’t because “we’re” rational, but yes, that event actually happened.

For example, secular historians all agree that Jesus’ body disappeared some time between being buried and being looked for by some women who knew him. They also all agree that his followers started the religion of Christianity based on his teachings very shortly after that; that their leader was generally thought to be Peter, and that Peter’s successor today resides at the Vatican in Rome. They also say that all that stuff about resurrection sounds pretty crazy, and of course no rational person believes in miracles, but yes, his body disappeared, and yes, they started a religion about him, and yes, that religion would be what we today generally call the Catholic Church.

Once you establish whether the events they record as historical are actually historical, then you can safely move on, I think.