What About Mormons?

[MarySon]

You speak the truth. True prophecy did end with the death of the Apostles as was foretold by the Apostles themselves as well as by earlier Prophets and even by The Lord, Jesus Christ (See Matthew Chapter 24 for example). Just because revelation ended does not mean it is no longer important. Anyone who is aware of the world around them knows that we need guidance from God now more than ever. Is it really so obsurd to accept that God can still speak through living Prophets? Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.(Amos 3:7). That God would again speak through prophets and restore His Kingdom was also foretold as recorded in the Old and New Tesaments.(see Dan. 2:44, Joel 2:28, Rom. 11:25, Rev. 14:6 as just a few examples).

There is something that just occurred to me. According to your agrument, the true prophecy ended with the death of Apostles. Then you use quotes form the Bible (including the New Testament) to prove your point. Now, we historically know that the canon of the New Testament was put together over 300 years after the last of the Apostles died. Since the church fell apart as you claim, who then put the New Testament together? If the apostasy already happened, how then can you rely on the New Testament, since it may not be guaranteed free of errors?

 

[cdim]

Jesus never has forsaken us and the restoration of the gospel is evidence that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail

If the restoration was necessary, then that means the entire church fell away and Jesus had forsaken us.

Honestly, the Great Apostasy is what truly deters me from Mormonism. Jesus “the Good Sheperd” who promised he’d be with us until the end of age…left us? He let the truth fall away, and left his flock without a leader, thus making it necessary for Joseph Smith to restore it? In the end, it isn’t a matter of the Bible vs. the Book of Mormon…it’s whether or not you truly believe that Jesus, even with His divine power, let his entire church into apostasy. I cannot believe this.

I hope you make an informed decision.

And also, I don’t think Majick was accusing you to be a racist…but it is true that the Mormon church used to have racist teachings. Blacks were not allowed to have the priesthood until 1978. (Yet another reason why I decided not to convert…)

 

[PaulDupre]

MarySon:

There is something that just occurred to me. According to your agrument, the true prophecy ended with the death of Apostles. Then you use quotes form the Bible (including the New Testament) to prove your point. Now, we historically know that the canon of the New Testament was put together over 300 years after the last of the Apostles died. Since the church fell apart as you claim, who then put the New Testament together? If the apostasy already happened, how then can you rely on the New Testament, since it may not be guaranteed free of errors?

Mormons, in fact, do not trust the bible. They teach that it is hopelessly corrupted and not trustworthy. They only use it to appear Christian to outsiders so they can suck unsuspecting people into their non-Christian cult.

Paul (a former Mormon, now Catholic)

 

[tundramom]

Now, as to everyone trying to steer me away from Mormonism:

I notice that a lot of the argument against it seems to be that Mormonism doesn’t jive with the Bible. That might be a good argument if you had any reason to believe that it was the Bible that I thought was true. I am no longer convinced of that.
At this point in my life, the Bible and the Book of Mormon are just two books. If they disagree, it could just as easily be the Bible that’s wrong, in my opinion, as the Book of Mormon.

Simply based on archaelogical evidence, the BOM has none!! I’ve been to Israel. There’s PLENTY there to support just physical evidence of everything written in the Bible.

As for claims made by Mormonism that I think hold some weight, or are at least worthy of discussion:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Who IS God the Father to a Mormon? He is a being who was once a man who progressed to godhood. Who is Jesus to a Mormon? He is an older brother who’s sacrifice of himself on the Cross (although they believe it happened in the Garden of Gethsemane) didn’t completely wash away the sins of the world, but only “after all we can do”. Who is the Holy Ghost to a Mormon? He is another member of the godhead, but his role is unclear, as he never obtained a body, so therefore how he became a “god” is unclear… other than a “good feeling and a burning in the bosom”.

1. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

What WAS Adam’s transgression to a Mormon? It was a “step up”. It was necessary to them that he ate of the fruit so that mankind could be brought into the world. There was a theory and a sermon given by Brigham Young, the second president of the church, that expounded on the idea that Adam was actually god the father in the flesh.

1. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

WHERE did the “atonement” of Christ occur? To a Christian, it was by His shed blood on the Cross to take upon Himself the sins of the world. Again, to a Mormon, this happened for the salvation of the world (all men). A sort of blanket sacrifice only “after all we can do”. And it happened in Gethsemane as far as they are concerned. What ARE the "laws and ordinances of the gospel to a Mormon? read on…

1. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ok, this gets sketchy here because in theory they are the same as most Christians… although we as Catholics don’t immerse at Baptism although that is practiced as well. The “laying on of hands” to a Mormon isn’t done by a Catholic Bishop after going through confirmation classes… but rather by a group of men after baptism at the age of eight without much instruction to the child.

1. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

To a Mormon, that means that the calling of god is made by a prophetic word from another priesthood holder and administer the ordinances… but only they have the authority to do so. Who are these men? Where did they get their authority? Again, if you believe that the true gospel was lost and had to be given again to Joseph Smith because Jesus just couldn’t hold His own church together, then that’s where they get the authority.

1. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

But is their organization the same as the early church? I would say not. Their heirchy structure may have some of the same names, but their functions are not the same. Read some of the Early Church Fathers and see if you can tell the difference between what the Mormon heirchy is and what the real structure was/is in the Catholic church. (don’t know if I spelled heirchy right. )

More to follow…

 

[tundramom]

1. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

Perhaps in the early days of Mormonism this occured, there are records of it, such as in a Pentecostal church of today or in a Charismatic circle… but I was a Mormon my whole life and saw none of these. A Mormon today would tell you that the gift of tongues is what happens to a Mormon missionary when he is able to pick up on a language in the mission field.

1. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

WHO translated it correctly? Did Joseph Smith? He tried to re-write the Bible to fit his own church theology, but he never finished it. A Mormon of today is encouraged to read the KJV and only by taking it in context with the footnotes provided by their church leaders can you interpret it correctly. That seems logical… but that is what the Magesterium of the Catholic church is for. They’ve been interpreting it for ages and they’ve been teaching on it for 2,000 years. I think I’ll take that over a charismatic Mason turned religious leader.

More to follow in my next post. My answers were too long.

 

[tundramom]

1. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

OK… what has been revealed since Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? The only thing that I can think of that is definitive is the Spencer W. Kimball recall of the “blacks can’t hold the Priesthood” ban.

1. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Ok… where are the ten tribes? Where is this Zion? To a Mormon, it would be located in Jackson County Missouri where they believe the original Garden of Eden was. The book of Revelation, the last book in the Bible, given prophecy to the Apostle John tells us that the New Jerusalem will not be on the current Earth as we know it.

1. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Ok. That’s fine… Then why is the first vision account currently used by the LDS church have a quote from God the Father himself telling JS that “all these creeds (of Christianity) are an abomination in my sight”. And if this were truly the case, that they believed we should all be able to enjoy the privilege of worshipping other than how they do… why do they send so many young men and women out in the world to try and convert us all?

12.We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

The Mormons fled Illinois and make the trek to Utah not so that they could escape “religious persecution”, although there was that… they fled because they believed in practicing polygamy and couldn’t do it under current US laws. Only when Utah applied for statehood did polygamy stop… although if you ask a Mormon today, their D & C section 132 obviously is still a part of their Canon of scripture and they believe that they will be polygamous in the future, if not on this earth then once they get to heaven.

1. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Ok. You got me there. They do many good deeds. The Mormon church spends millions of dollars helping those in need. They are truly service oriented people. Their own welfare program is solid and a very good model for people world-wide. This is the only one that I can say they truly do follow and in this we could all learn from them.

Most of that sounds very agreeable to me, and I think it must sound fairly good to you, too. A lot of it is the same as Catholicism. I can’t say I know for sure about the whole Zion on the American continent thing, but I am not yet willing to rule it out, either. This is a process of discernment to me.

Discernment is a very good thing to have. Pray for it! As you can see, I do not believe these things sound good…although they do tickle the ears. But the point is not sounding good. The point is WHAT IS TRUTH? When Pontius Pilate asked Jesus what IS Truth what was it that Jesus replied? Search the scriptures for yourself and find out. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life… no man comes to the Father but through Him. Is that what the Mormons are truly teaching? Early Mormons believed that Joseph Smith would also judge them in the end. Many today still believe that although it hasn’t been focused on in the last few years.
Please, Bill. Don’t throw away Catholicism for something that mirrors the truth.

in Christ
Steph

 

[SPH1]

I don’t know, Catholics. It just seems to me that the Mormons have it going on. I mean, doesn’t it make sense to you that Christ would have wanted to make his Gospel available to the people on the American continent too?

Then why not also leave the Gospel in Asia & Africa, parts of which are now only being evanglized?

It just seems that Catholicism is so corrupt, and that the Church pretty much fell apart without Jesus around.

You would have to deny that Christ is head of the Church and the “Good Shepherd” to accept this. Like Protestantism in general, Mormonism is a Christ-denying mockery. A symbolic God to go with a symbolic Church and symbolic sacraments.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You would have to deny that Christ is head of the Church and the “Good Shepherd” to accept this. Like Protestantism in general, Mormonism is a Christ-denying mockery. A symbolic God to go with a symbolic Church and symbolic sacraments.

Hi,

WOA WOA WOA, them there are fightin words!!

I think you better be careful what you say. Protestantism IS NOT A CHRIST_DENYING MOCKERY!!!

I am sorry but you must know absolutely nothing about what we believe.

How would you feel if I called the CC the Whore of Babylon(I dont even know what it means, but it sounds horrible)

BTW I dont believe that way. That might get me kicked off here.
I prayerfully hope you investigate our beliefs:thumbsup:

I will no longer hijack the thread. I just had to make a comment
ALLFORHIM

 

[jmcrae]

It just seems that Catholicism is so corrupt, and that the Church pretty much fell apart without Jesus around.

Heck, it started “going down hill” as soon as Jesus put mouthy Simon Peter in charge of the men, and traitor/thief Judas in charge of the money.The Borgias were nothing compared to him. The other disciples had their own problems - if they weren’t illiterate, then they were unpatriotic, and if they were patriotic, they were in trouble with the Romans, and probably clanking around in leg irons half the time. Jesus couldn’t win for losing, with that bunch.

We are a church of sinners - we always have been. This didn’t just start recently. Apparently, Jesus likes it that way, because look at who He picked to run this thing.

 

[Ahimsa]

Then why not also leave the Gospel in Asia & Africa, parts of which are now only being evanglized?

Well, St. Thomas went to India, so that has “Asia” covered. And remember that Ethiopian eunuch in Acts? Africa? Check.

 

[TimOliv]

Ok, thats not funny. Certain stuff might seem weird or absurd to us but responding like this is meaningless and causes needless strife. We are not going to get people to take Catholicism seriously when we put out this kind of low level stuff.

Some things MIGHT seem absurd to us? A guy gets up one day and decides to play messiah. I apologize for not referencing it for the theological jewel that it truly is. Do you bust people’s chops about how they talk about Koresh too?

 

[BigBill]

Please, Bill. Don’t throw away Catholicism for something that mirrors the truth.

Actually, the only thing I even remotely have to throw away right now is Norse Christianity. You guys are making some compelling arguments against doing that, however.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, the only thing I even remotely have to throw away right now is Norse Christianity. You guys are making some compelling arguments against doing that, however.

And what’s their history? How do they stand up, in comparison to reality?

 

[alexaustralia]

The way I see it JW and mormons are two sides of the same coin

I am not good* enough for heaven & heaven isn’t good enough for me…respectively

*good - by the death of Christ and grace of God being made righteous unto salvation…my little disclaimer

 

[tundramom]

Very good analogy Alex.

 

[kellie]

Now, as to everyone trying to steer me away from Mormonism:

I notice that a lot of the argument against it seems to be that Mormonism doesn’t jive with the Bible. That might be a good argument if you had any reason to believe that it was the Bible that I thought was true. I am no longer convinced of that. At this point in my life, the Bible and the Book of Mormon are just two books. If they disagree, it could just as easily be the Bible that’s wrong, in my opinion, as the Book of Mormon.

As for claims made by Mormonism that I think hold some weight, or are at least worthy of discussion:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12.We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

1. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Most of that sounds very agreeable to me, and I think it must sound fairly good to you, too. A lot of it is the same as Catholicism. I can’t say I know for sure about the whole Zion on the American continent thing, but I am not yet willing to rule it out, either. This is a process of discernment to me.

The Bible is just a book?? So how do you and the Mormons know about God, Adam, Jesus, the teachings of Jesus, Paul … ??

Also, you state you believe, or the Mormons believe, that the Bible is the Word of God, and so too is the Book of Mormons, but only the Bible that is translated correctly.

Who do you turn to, or who in history do u turn to, to verify the correct translation of the Bible? If you are in doubt as to a translation, who do you believe has authority, or had authority in the past to make official a translation?

 

[franksta]

Just some brief thoughts, BigBill.

In college I was a Baptist, and briefly dated a Mormon woman (which is odd considering their take on dating outside the LDS church). She dumped me when she realized I wasn’t interested in converting.

At one point, she gave me a book about the LDS church which spoke very favorably about Catholicism. It said that there were really only two serious options when it came to religion, Mormonism and Catholicism, because those were the only two churches with a priesthood. But I couldn’t see anything to validate the Mormon priesthood over the Catholic; I have trouble believing that God would leave His Church without a priesthood for 1800 years, only to be supposedly restored by a then-15-year-old boy who later died with a smoking gun in his hand.

Mormonism is not Trinitarian, and thus departs from the great tradition of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and even most Reformation Protestantism.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Hey Bill,

I looked for Churches for a while and Mormonism appealed to me too. But after reading the Book of Mormon I honestly knew I was reading something made up. The accuracy of the prophecies are not repeated for events after Joseph lived. I mean Jesus, the crucifixion, everything is prophesied in detail like the writer already knew about it. However when speaking of future events the BofM of very very vague. I wanted the religion to be true, but in good conscience I couldn’t believe it. The way they flip flopped on polygamy which Joseph Smith called the new and everlasting covenant. In Joseph Smith’s day you could NOT attain the Celestial Kingdom without polygamy, now it gets you excommunicated and damnation.

The Temple ceremonies were lifted from the Masons. Take a look at the historical record, Joseph started the Temple ceremonies AFTER he and his brother became a mason. Perhaps scariest of all is the satan in the Temple ceremony has an apron with symbols of his power and priesthoods. In the temple you can find these symbols on your own clothes that you wear.

The contradiction between prophets is astounding. Look at the ban on blacks from the priesthood. Brigham Young said death would come to anyone who laid with a black person. That blacks who have the curse of Cain would never attain the priesthood until Jesus came back. Then in 1978 it was lifted.

In studying everything fairly, I came to the conclusion Mormonism had no leg to stand on. I mean the Book of Mormon doesn’t even teach Mormonism…

These are just a few things, but you get the idea. In the end I came back to the Catholic Church for better or worse. I’m a bit of a lost soul.

 

[christianley]

I don’t know, Catholics. It just seems to me that the Mormons have it going on. I mean, doesn’t it make sense to you that Christ would have wanted to make his Gospel available to the people on the American continent too? And seriously, isn’t divinity the only worthy goal to which we should aspire? Wasn’t it Jesus who said that we must be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? How esle can we do that than to become divine like the Father?

It just seems that Catholicism is so corrupt, and that the Church pretty much fell apart without Jesus around. I find it hard to believe that you’ll honestly deny the good points made by Mormonism.

I’m not a Mormon myself. I’m kinda “between religions” right now, after a bad experience with the Catholic Church, and then a brief stint in a local church called the “Reformed Norse Christian Assembly,” I am considering the Mormons. What do you guys all think?

I don’t know of anything more corrupt than claiming to have received an ancient text on the history of the Americas which is ultimately a complete fraud. This has been proven, and the information is all over the internet. Take some time to look into it. The Book of Mormon is simply not credible, and DNA research on ancient Americans confirm it.

As for the Mormons they don’t “have it going on.” 90% of their converts are inactive within a year. They claim all kinds of members of their church, but self-identification surveys in a number of countries show that Mormons claim far more adherents than they have.

Why come here fishing?

 

[majick275]

Just out of curiousity, why is it that of all the things I’ve said, you infer racism? This appears to be yet another unsupported accusation made in haste and with nervousness. Please, be a little more reasonable. Just because I think I can see a little truth in Mormonism doesn’t make me a racist, as far as I’m concerned.

I make this observation because of your admission that you were involved in the reformed norse christian assembly. You decided that was relevant to this topic. I find that supportive of my assertion.

Now, as to everyone trying to steer me away from Mormonism:

I notice that a lot of the argument against it seems to be that Mormonism doesn’t jive with the Bible. That might be a good argument if you had any reason to believe that it was the Bible that I thought was true. I am no longer convinced of that. At this point in my life, the Bible and the Book of Mormon are just two books. If they disagree, it could just as easily be the Bible that’s wrong, in my opinion, as the Book of Mormon.

Okay, that defines your “start point”. I find that the evidence to support the Bible is sufficient myself. I find no eveidence at all for the BoM. In fact I find strong eveidence (anthropological mostly)
against it. I find the Bible to more than just a book.

As for claims made by Mormonism that I think hold some weight, or are at least worthy of discussion:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Okay… but what/who do we believe he/they are? The Nicene creed pretty well defines the Catholic view. I find the LDs position that they are just men who “achieved” exaltation blasphemous.

1. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

sounds good but even in LDS teachings original sin has definite consequences. I never got the chance to live in the garden of eden…because of Adam.

1. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

sounds good again but the Bible makes it very clear that our works ar emerely manifestations of our faith and it is the GIFT Christ that saves us. We can’t “earn” our salvation. We CAN be sincere in our gratitude by following Christ with our works.

1. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

the sacraments of the Cathoic church are sufficinetly similar that I don’t see a signicant issue here.

1. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

and who tells us who has authority? How do we know that all of the callings were by prophecy? Please… The Catholic church has an unbroken line of authority from Christ. LDS have to rely on Joseph Smith’s word that he was called outside of any before seen process.

(continued)