What About Mormons?

[wademann]

I really want to know what “falsehoods”. I think I can prove any of my assertions. It is NOT bashing as compettive activity or for fun or out of anger or anything else. It is the quest for truth that motivates me.

I may not have a “problem” with religions that teach love thy neightbor, etc. but that doesn’t mean in my case (or yours if we are being truthful) that I think it’s great for folks to just stay in their current church. I want folks to become Catholic in the devout belief that it is the only way to provide them with the “fullness” of the gospel and thus maximize their opportunity for spiritual growth. I want everyone to have the best possible relationship with God. I beleive that at least on the surface this is the primary motivation for LDS missionary efforts, yes?

I think though that in the case of the LDS church it’s NOT just a church that teaches soome good things. The founding of it is problematic in my opinion and I believe that it’s doctrines and practices lead people AWAY from God.

I mean we could easily look at wiccans as basically good people who teach spiritual growth and while not following the example og Jesus specifically do teach love and respect for others. Does that mean that I think it’s okay to be pagan? certainly not. I also think there is a significant difference in using the same name for a conceptually different entity (Jesus) than actually worshipping the same God. I find this a major point of difference between Catholic and LDS beliefs that appears to be waved of by the LDS. We don’t define Jesus or God the same way at all. We say the same names but we mean something VERY different.

You can believe what you want. I don’t care to argue doctrine. It just goes round in circles. You have been here long enough to see that, but if you think it’s worthwhile go ahead and debate. I know for a fact that overall the church is not run the way Paul said it was. They don’t audit you, it is none of their business, and most bishops would agree with that. They don’t have time to audit anyone as they have full time jobs on top of the extra 40 hours a week they put in as bishop. My current bishop is ER doctor. My last bishop works for the Dept. of justice as a investigative accountant. trust me thay don’t do audits they don’t get paid a dime to be a bishop. Paul may have had a wacko bishop, but there are wacko’s in all religions. Like I said before it is easy to paint with a broad brush. Do you totally agree with pauls rant?

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m pretty sure they don’t do this anymore. I think if a member reported this to SLC the leader who did this would get in trouble. Heck, you can pay your tithing directly to SLC and SLC won’t even tell the local leader how much tithing you paid. All you have to do is declare yourself a full tithepayer. Rich people do this all the time because they don’t want local people talking about how much money they make. You could send $1 to SLC, call it a full tithe to your Bishop, and he’d never be the wiser. I know people who pay directly to SLC and their Bishop never knows what they pay.

I’m glad they do that now. It is a definite improvement.
Paul

 

[majick275]

You can believe what you want. I don’t care to argue doctrine. It just goes round in circles. You have been here long enough to see that, but if you think it’s worthwhile go ahead and debate. I know for a fact that overall the church is not run the way Paul said it was. They don’t audit you, it is none of their business, and most bishops would agree with that. They don’t have time to audit anyone as they have full time jobs on top of the extra 40 hours a week they put in as bishop. My current bishop is ER doctor. My last bishop works for the Dept. of justice as a investigative accountant. trust me thay don’t do audits they don’t get paid a dime to be a bishop. Paul may have had a wacko bishop, but there are wacko’s in all religions. Like I said before it is easy to paint with a broad brush. Do you totally agree with pauls rant?

I have served in bishoprics before and I have never personally experienced what Paul did. I never in any of my posts claimed to either though.

I believe that Paul did experience this though and think that the LDS structure lends itself to this type of thing. When you don’t have a catechism or trained clergy and your handbook of instructions is kept almost secret it can make it vewry difficult to have consistent leadership from bivocational lay ministry.

I agree with you that there are whackos in all churches and probaly in similar amounts. I think Pauls experience may have been a “utahish” phenomenom that was a product of the culture in that place and time. I have seen in Texas though some pretty thorough tithing settlements where bishops had been instructed to make sure that members knew just what their full tithe was so that they could make sure they were giving an accurate answer to the question of being a full tithe payer.

I have myself been instructed in some cases to make sure that certain individuals who had scheduled temple recomend interviews were specifically asked if they had “caught up” on their tithing before issuing a recomend to them.

The paying of tithing direct to Salt Lake was never an option anywhere I was and that wasn’t long ago. There was also pressure from higher church leadership to really strees the importance of being a full tithe payer in recomend interviews.

To answer your question directly I “qualify” Paul’s statements as his pewrsonal experience at one time and place. I filter that through my own experience and research to conclude that while Paul was truthful, that’s not the “official” church policy nor even a common practice.

It does come somewhat close though in that nowhere else have I seen such emphasis on numerous personal “interviews” where you are expected to basically prove your worthiness before you can participate in important church activities. I find the level of contol unwaranted and made worse by the lack of consistency due to poorly defined doctrine and lack of ecclesiastical training.

I ask you where did I spread falsehoods? or even paint with a broad brush from the example of an isolated crackpot. (unless you count Joseph Smith)

 

[wademann]

Maj,
I don’t know that I was ever talking to you, but let me ask you this, if the mormon church is a cult and we are all being brain washed, and your mind was so weak, that you fell for it for enough time to be in the bishopric, then how can you have any credibility now? Maybe you are being duped again. Maybe in ten years you will be a new religion, and then you will calling the catholic church names.

 

[christianley]

I have served in bishoprics before and I have never personally experienced what Paul did. I never in any of my posts claimed to either though.

I believe that Paul did experience this though and think that the LDS structure lends itself to this type of thing. When you don’t have a catechism or trained clergy and your handbook of instructions is kept almost secret it can make it vewry difficult to have consistent leadership from bivocational lay ministry.

I agree with you that there are whackos in all churches and probaly in similar amounts. I think Pauls experience may have been a “utahish” phenomenom that was a product of the culture in that place and time. I have seen in Texas though some pretty thorough tithing settlements where bishops had been instructed to make sure that members knew just what their full tithe was so that they could make sure they were giving an accurate answer to the question of being a full tithe payer.

I have myself been instructed in some cases to make sure that certain individuals who had scheduled temple recomend interviews were specifically asked if they had “caught up” on their tithing before issuing a recomend to them.

The paying of tithing direct to Salt Lake was never an option anywhere I was and that wasn’t long ago. There was also pressure from higher church leadership to really strees the importance of being a full tithe payer in recomend interviews.

To answer your question directly I “qualify” Paul’s statements as his pewrsonal experience at one time and place. I filter that through my own experience and research to conclude that while Paul was truthful, that’s not the “official” church policy nor even a common practice.

It does come somewhat close though in that nowhere else have I seen such emphasis on numerous personal “interviews” where you are expected to basically prove your worthiness before you can participate in important church activities. I find the level of contol unwaranted and made worse by the lack of consistency due to poorly defined doctrine and lack of ecclesiastical training.

I ask you where did I spread falsehoods? or even paint with a broad brush from the example of an isolated crackpot. (unless you count Joseph Smith)

They never advertised that you could pay tithing to SLC, but it is in the handbook of instructions. The fact you can do so is now out on the Mormon underground so some of the less wealthy are now taking advantage of that. And some people who don’t want to or can’t pay a full tithe are taking advantage of the SLC loophole to keep their temple recommends so they can attend their children’s weddings. I know some of this stuff because I was a ward clerk and ward executive secretary and knew of people who did this. It’s terrible that people have to be dishonest to attend their children’s weddings, but that is what the practices of the Mormon Church encourage.

Here’s a link to the Mormon underground where this was discussed:

aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=319220&CategoryID=11365&ThreadID=1093878

 

[majick275]

Maj,
I don’t know that I was ever talking to you, but let me ask you this, if the mormon church is a cult and we are all being brain washed, and your mind was so weak, that you fell for it for enough time to be in the bishopric, then how can you have any credibility now? Maybe you are being duped again. Maybe in ten years you will be a new religion, and then you will calling the catholic church names.

you quoted my post in your post here where it appears that you were specifically questioning me:

wademann:

You can believe what you want. I don’t care to argue doctrine. It just goes round in circles. You have been here long enough to see that, but if you think it’s worthwhile go ahead and debate. I know for a fact that overall the church is not run the way Paul said it was. They don’t audit you, it is none of their business, and most bishops would agree with that. They don’t have time to audit anyone as they have full time jobs on top of the extra 40 hours a week they put in as bishop. My current bishop is ER doctor. My last bishop works for the Dept. of justice as a investigative accountant. trust me thay don’t do audits they don’t get paid a dime to be a bishop. Paul may have had a wacko bishop, but there are wacko’s in all religions. Like I said before it is easy to paint with a broad brush. Do you totally agree with pauls rant?

I think you are exagerating a bit here. “brainwashing” can mean many things to many people. in it’s worst iteration though it’s vicitms are NOT “weakminded”. Sure there are some weakminded folks who get caught up in whatever is in fron of them but there are also folks like me who grew up in the LDS church and for years didn’t really have a chance to know much else. the influence of family is certainly worth considering there as well. I tried my best for many years to be LDS and realize the purported benefits of that. I spent much time studying and researching and praying and seeking to know that the LDS church was true. Somewhere in that process I proved to myself and my wife and my children that the Catholic church is true. I had to be absolutely certain before I made that change because I knew the consequences. There was no way to “hedge my bet” with God. He expects faith based action and comitment. I knew my family would be ugly about it and many friends would shun me as well. I know I made the right decision when I formally removed my name from the LDS church. I know I also made the right decision after that to be baptized adn confirmed in the Catholic church. I am not weak minded nor do I think I was “duped” into Mormonism. (although I think some folks are) I was RAISED Mormon and that is different. That’s why I felt so compelled to do all I could to prove it right by living it to the best of my ability for so long. My credibility should rest on my ability and willingness to back up my assertions with documented facts.(and I accept that even facts are subject to individual interpretation) I am not being “duped” now as no one ever “proselyted” me into the Catholic church. Actually it was a long process where I was frequently challenged to be absolutely sure that’s what I wanted and that Ireally believed it. Quite the opposite of the “get the 'gators in the water” approach that I have often times seen in the LDS church.

I will not have a new religion again ever. I call very few churches names. Those that do are ones that I feel have acted as a church in such a way as to necessitate such warnings.

Now can we get past the dramatic emotional appeals and get back to truth seeking?

 

[wademann]

you quoted my post in your post here where it appears that you were specifically questioning me:

I think you are exagerating a bit here. “brainwashing” can mean many things to many people. in it’s worst iteration though it’s vicitms are NOT “weakminded”. Sure there are some weakminded folks who get caught up in whatever is in fron of them but there are also folks like me who grew up in the LDS church and for years didn’t really have a chance to know much else. the influence of family is certainly worth considering there as well. I tried my best for many years to be LDS and realize the purported benefits of that. I spent much time studying and researching and praying and seeking to know that the LDS church was true. Somewhere in that process I proved to myself and my wife and my children that the Catholic church is true. I had to be absolutely certain before I made that change because I knew the consequences. There was no way to “hedge my bet” with God. He expects faith based action and comitment. I knew my family would be ugly about it and many friends would shun me as well. I know I made the right decision when I formally removed my name from the LDS church. I know I also made the right decision after that to be baptized adn confirmed in the Catholic church. I am not weak minded nor do I think I was “duped” into Mormonism. (although I think some folks are) I was RAISED Mormon and that is different. That’s why I felt so compelled to do all I could to prove it right by living it to the best of my ability for so long. My credibility should rest on my ability and willingness to back up my assertions with documented facts.(and I accept that even facts are subject to individual interpretation) I am not being “duped” now as no one ever “proselyted” me into the Catholic church. Actually it was a long process where I was frequently challenged to be absolutely sure that’s what I wanted and that Ireally believed it. Quite the opposite of the “get the 'gators in the water” approach that I have often times seen in the LDS church.

I will not have a new religion again ever. I call very few churches names. Those that do are ones that I feel have acted as a church in such a way as to necessitate such warnings.

Now can we get past the dramatic emotional appeals and get back to truth seeking?

I wasn’t talking to you, about falsehoods. I was talking to Paul. You can continue searching. I have already found the truth. http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

 

[perez639]

Are Mormons really brainwashed? I dont know… all I know is after attending services for over a year and in particular the Sunday’s where members would give their testimonies…they are so similar… They would repeatedly say things like, “I know that this church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a true,” etc… It was just really unusual to hear each member hold Joseph Smith in such high regard. It sounds like a song set on repeat. No objectivity or critical dissecting ever used. From my experience and what I witnessed, it was as though Joseph Smith is talked about as highly as Jesus. I found this greatly offensive. The whole Restoration of the church because of the “great apostasy” would make a lot more sense to me if the followers were virtuous…but they were polygamous!! This just does not sit right…

Y is it that Mormons never question?

Understanding and investigating one’s faith is what brings us closer to it, every lds member I came into contact with would refuse to investigate what they believe…The response I would always get is there is no need bc the mormon faith is true.
They are completely content with ignoring history and throwing out a huge base of Christianity. The trinity. Yet, they call themselves Christian…

I dunno, I am just beyond perplexed w/ the lds religion.

 

[majick275]

I wasn’t talking to you, about falsehoods. I was talking to Paul. You can continue searching. I have already found the truth. http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

yet you chose to aim your posts at me as well. What Paul spoke of wasn’t false either, it was just limited to a specific situation.

Funny your remark about having found the truth. I’m sure you believe tthat but consider this, As you are I once was. As I am now you may become.

 

[Wendy-Kay]

What sort of “family-centered” church would forbid the highest kingdoms from members for drinking tea but allow abortion?
Christ’s church is built on a rock. The truth never changes. Just take gander at the LDS teachings on abortion the last 25 years. Spencer Kimball, president and thus prophet outright condemed it, but in the LDS handbook of the early 1990s the practise of killing innocent babies needed a more pc-friendly update.
This is from the LDS’s own website:
Question:
What is the Church’s position on abortion?

Answer:

In 1973, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the following statement regarding abortion, which is still applicable today:
“The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”

mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-2168-1,00.html

So God Himself might give you permission to patronize an abortion clinic! But don’t you dare ask him to have a glass of wine!

 

[wademann]

Maj,

I know you think of yourself as a intellectual, and you argue your points very well, and I am sure that you win most of the debates that you have with people on the net, and in your life, which I can tell, makes you feel very superior and confident, but I know that there are people in both of our churches, that are more intelligent than both of us put together, and they could run circles around both of us, and some of them believe that the mormon church is true and their arguments make more sense to me than the other side, but by reading the comments of some of the catholic apoligists, I can see why someone could believe differently. Most of the true intellectuals can see that this forum is, for the most part a waste of time. I think you spend way to much time here and even though you say it is to save others from the mormon church, it seems as though you have to keep validating it to yourself. You should probably find something more worthwhile, in your life. I know you will have a really witty and superior response, but I will not be responding any further. Good luck in your search for truth, by the way, you had it right the first time when you were LDS.http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

 

[Vigis]

The Mormons believe that everyone becomes a god themselves. Like Hindus. They deny that thier is a Holy Trinity. They also hold the belief that God changes. What makes America so special? The pilgrims, the French, and the Spanish brought the word of God to America. Those before that are in Hell, or maybe Purgatory. Maybe even in Heaven. We do not know. Here please visit this website. It will explain Mormonism very well. It has been writen by a former Mormon.

leaderu.com/offices/michaeldavis/docs/mormonism/mormonism.html

God speed.

 

[Damo73]

Watch this clip from living hope ministries and i know you will no longer want to become a mormon lhvm.org/vid_bible_med.htm

There is no historical evidence for the book of mormon, they have never found a building, sword or anything that belongs to the Nephites or Lamenites or Jarodites even the animals mentioned in the book of mormon did not exist in America , during the time it is said to have happened.

 

[Wendy-Kay]

Catholic Answers has a great article by Isaiah Bennet on their main website. catholic.com/library/noncatholic_groups.asp
Check out the book Mormonism by same person. If a mormon is inclined to say that book is biased and slanderours, ask them to refute one thing in there!

Although, it was offensive enough they believe God came down in his flesh and bones body and had physical, literal intercourse with Mary to sire Jesus, who was only in his pre-spirit form at the time. It is utter blasphemy.
Only the devil would take our beautiful Lord and Savior and try to convince people He was just a guy like me and you that God favored. The devil was also the one who whispered The Great Lies to humanity, “You surely shall not die,” (their doctrine of hell is radically different) and “you will be like gods!”
Telling the truth is not bashing! If we love one another as commanded, we are to admonish and correct them.

 

[Chris-WA]

Are Mormons really brainwashed? I dont know… all I know is after attending services for over a year and in particular the Sunday’s where members would give their testimonies…they are so similar… They would repeatedly say things like, “I know that this church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a true,” etc… It was just really unusual to hear each member hold Joseph Smith in such high regard. It sounds like a song set on repeat. No objectivity or critical dissecting ever used.

Yeah, this always really creeps me out too. I guess if you already believe in it you wouldn’t even notice how weird it is. It’s like they have to convince themselves by constantly telling each other that they know the church is true and that Joseph was a true prophet. It’s just a really weird way to conduct a church service. It has nothing whatsover to do with the worship of God. The creepiest of all is when parents make their toddlers get up there and do the same thing, as they whisper in their ears what to say. If that’s not brainwashing I truly don’t know what is.

 

[majick275]

Maj,

I know you think of yourself as a intellectual, and you argue your points very well, and I am sure that you win most of the debates that you have with people on the net, and in your life, which I can tell, makes you feel very superior and confident,

actually I feel a LOT more humble than when I thought I was on my way to becoming a God. I am now as a Catholic COMPLETELY dependent on the grace of God. I try to be like the guy on the Bible that when he would pray he looked down and begged for mercy. That’s me. admitted sinner incapable of “earning” salvation and worshipping God in gratitude for his GIFT of salvation. I try to make my thanks sincere by offering obedience to God.

but I know that there are people in both of our churches, that are more intelligent than both of us put together, and they could run circles around both of us, and some of them believe that the mormon church is true and their arguments make more sense to me than the other side, but by reading the comments of some of the catholic apoligists, I can see why someone could believe differently. Most of the true intellectuals can see that this forum is, for the most part a waste of time.

come on dude… you either can’t or won’t support ypur position withany type of facts, logic, analysis or anything other than yuor own opinion so you cop out with this? should we all then just hand our free agency over to the intellectual apologists since they seem so much better able to figure this stuff out? (we’ll just pick the smart folks that appeal to us the most…kind of like an election where you just vote straight party ticket)

I think you spend way to much time here and even though you say it is to save others from the mormon church, it seems as though you have to keep validating it to yourself.

because I actually respond to your posts? I spend more time in research to better understand how to live my faith. I feel quite validateed every sunday when I receive God in the eucharist.

you should probably find something more worthwhile, in your life. I know you will have a really witty and superior response, but I will not be responding any further. Good luck in your search for truth, by the way, you had it right the first time when you were LDS.http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

I have a very well rounded life. I work, I fish, I spend time with my children, we are active in our parish life. I have found the truth already. You are the one still seeking or you wouldn’t be here on these boards. You may still be telling yourself that it’s just a missionary activity but God is calling you here. He calls you to learn his true Gospel. I pray that you will listen and receive all he has to give you.That witty enough? respond or not as you chose. I really am praying for God to bless you.

 

[PaulDupre]

The Mormons believe that everyone becomes a god themselves. Like Hindus. They deny that thier is a Holy Trinity. They also hold the belief that God changes. What makes America so special? The pilgrims, the French, and the Spanish brought the word of God to America. Those before that are in Hell, or maybe Purgatory. Maybe even in Heaven. We do not know. Here please visit this website. It will explain Mormonism very well. It has been writen by a former Mormon.

leaderu.com/offices/michaeldavis/docs/mormonism/mormonism.html

God speed.

Hi Vigis,
That website has an error in its first paragraph. The Mormons do indeed believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. In fact, my LDS brother thinks that Mormons are the only ones who believe it.

The LDS have so many errors in their doctrines that we need not misrepresent them.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hi Vigis,
In fact, my LDS brother thinks that Mormons are the only ones who believe it.

If thats the case he has some major explaining to do!

The LDS have so many errors in their doctrines that we need not misrepresent them.

LOL, did you come up with this line yourself?

 

[zerinus]

If thats the case he has some major explaining to do!

I don’t blame him. That appears to be the belief of most of the “enlightened” folks in the Christian world nowadays. They no longer believe in His physical resurrection, or in His miraculous birth, or even in His divinity. They openly declare it, and they are among the clergy and the academic establishments. That at least is the case in the Protestant world. I don’t know to what extent it applies to the Catholic world.

zerinus

 

[christianley]

I don’t blame him. That appears to be the belief of most of the “enlightened” folks in the Christian world nowadays. They no longer believe in His physical resurrection, or in His miraculous birth, or even in His divinity. They openly declare it, and they are among the clergy and the academic establishments. That at least is the case in the Protestant world. I don’t know to what extent it applies to the Catholic world.

zerinus

I suspect it doesn’t apply very well in the Catholic world. At least in my RCIA class we were taught about a physical resurrection, the virgin birth, etc. And my priests declare these things strongly. Where did these beliefs come from – they were handed down and preserved by the Catholic Church! At least the Catholic Church believes in the divinity of Jesus unlike the Mormons who only claim that Jesus is an exalted man who progressed to become a God. In the Catholic world Jesus is God – the same yesterday, today and forever. The Mormon denial of Christ’s unique divinity is one of its greatest heresies, but the Catholic Church still teaches it and will teach it forever, just like it did yesterday and is doing today.