What about timbrels and cymbals?(All peoples, clap your hands)

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mercygate:
In response to the person who misses “singing in four parts” and who reads music well, I have yet to see a pew hymnal in a Catholic church that includes any other line than the melody. Even if one can read music, there is no music to read. Altos, tenors and basses need not apply.
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Amen to that! How I miss SATB hymns. Of course if we put more in our hymnals the Catholic laity would have to start learning them frm scratch. Also, it would leave as much room for Marty Haugen to have a hymn on every other page.
 
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DaveBj:
From Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary:

MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS OF THE BIBLE
Code: 
Tambourine (see Timbrel).
Timbrel. A percussion instrument which was carried and beaten by hand. Considered inappropriate for the Temple, it was probably played primarily by women <Ps. 68:25>. The timbrel may have been excluded from the Temple instruments because of its great popularity with the Canaanite fertility cults. Among the Hebrew people, it was associated with merrymaking and processions <Gen. 31:27>. Remnants of timbrels with pieces of bronze inserted in the rim have been uncovered by archaeologists. Thus, the instrument could be shaken as well as beaten.
For blueyedmule: They had organs in the first century???

DaveBj
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I find this definition very thought provoking, as related to what is said in Judith. What was the author trying to say, when taken within this historical context? Were the Jewish leaders of the day already becoming too elitist, exclusionary, and legalistic by defining some intruments as unworthy for worship? I’ll bet they had similar controversies bettween the old and new as we see today.

The passage seems to be encouraging innovation in hymns and inclusion of what were perhaps deemed to be “profane” instruments. It encourages new types of expressions of joy and music in praising the Lord.
 
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robertaf:
Greetings
How did I miss this thread!

I love these scriptures.

I have this beautiful tambourine . It has a lovely white dove painted on it. I can hardly wait to use it to help me Praise the Lord!
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And Roberta, just think…we could all be dancing in the ‘Spirit’ to the tune of “The Lord of The Dance” or “God Has Spoken To His People”
Remember those days? Annunciata;)
 
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mercygate:
I believe the earliest use of the organ was in the 4th century.
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😃

I was a music major in college. Also, I’m old enough that I think I remember when organs were introduced.

DaveBj
 
Of course, one really has to take things in context.
It would be wonderful if we could “praise the Lord” in our comings and our goings, whether it was to the store, to work, to the back yard, without risking being arrested by those who are trying to relegate religion to one hour, IN A CHURCH AND NOWHERE ELSE, on Sunday. Religious words, songs, music, symbols on PUBLIC PROPERTY??? Well, God forbid!!

Instruments like timbrels, cymbals, etc. were appropriate for dancing in procession (they’d be fine in the St. Anthony parade in NYC in June, or St. Patty’s Day in March, I’m thinking). Now, knowing that timbrels were mainly played by women (see article in previous poster’s post), and that men and women were segregated in temple, doesn’t look like timbrels were played regularly in the temple (where women were expected to keep silent).

But hey, when I was in folk group in the mad late 70s and 80s, I played the tambourine sometimes–I also (gasp) played the ORGAN at other times. Sometimes we did a cappella stuff, sometimes had organ, sometimes just guitars, once and a while the whole shebang with bass, guitar, flute, tambourine, piano and voices. There’s a time, a place, a season for just about everything.

I think what we ALL really object to, down deep, is the idea that what we love is somebody else’s nightmare, and vice versa.

I know myself, I know what I like, and all I personally ask is that my “love” be considered equal to somebody else’s “love.” Let’s have some variety. Must we have “ONLY” solemn organ? ONLY a capella? ONLY guitars and Marty Haugen?

Can’t all be equally cherished? I will cheerfully listen to guitars once a month–but every Sunday? World without end? I LOVE turkey, but if I ate it every day (even every Sunday), it would lose its flavor mightly quickly.

So, let’s join together, those who are 80s devotees of Haugen/ guitars/Sing a Church and those who are 50s devotees of Bach, Tantum ergo (hee-hee-hee), Latin and incense. We can co-exist. I guarantee it.
 
Dear tantum,
I totally like your approach. I, too, enjoy variety! For the record, I love the organ and ancient church music, probably the best. A llot of parishes do offer variety, with the more traditional on Sunday morning and the more contemporary on Sunday evenings. 🙂
 
Does anyone know where we can find in the GIRM information on liturgical music?

I seem to remember that the opening song and the closing song were both to be joyful and celebratory; offeratory and communion and meditation to be reverent and meditative.
 
Bring on the timbrels and cymbals, but please, not during the period after communion, save it for the recessional, I’d kill for 60 seconds of silence after communion. And if the timbrels are going to accompany songs that belong at a rock concert, not the holy sacrifice of the Mass, I will personally escort the liturgical musicians to the tumbrels.
 
… among the instruments used at Mass, the organ is to have pride of place …
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Does anyone know what is supposed to be so special about the organ? Here’s what I know about organs:

Although the pipe organ was invented in about 300 B.C. and known throughout the Roman Empire, it was not used in Christian worship until sometime in the tenth century.

Unlike most other instruments that can produce only one, or at most two, at a time, the organ can produce several melodies or harmonies simultaneously.

When first used in churches, the organ was able to produce musical tones that were louder and deeper than any other musical instrument. Today, however, the organ has electronic competition for both volume and pitch.

By simultaneously playing groups of pipes (that differ in size, shape, and compostion) in varying combinations, the pipe organ can create sound waves that imitate the sound of almost any other instrument – from flutes to violins to chimes, and even the human voice. Thus, the pipe organ was a pre-electronics-age music synthesizer.

A pipe organ takes up a considerable amount of space – about the same amount of room as a choir – although, unlike choristers, the pipes don’t mind being stuck in inaccessible places with no view of the altar.

Real pipe organs are prohibitively expensive, ranging in price from $400,000 to $1,500,000 and up, and requiring expensive maintenance as well. In terms of my parish, we could either install an organ or rebuild the whole church – take your pick.

Real organists are also expensive (and increasingly difficult to find). Full-time organists employed by religious institutions average $55,000 a year, according to American Guild of Organists guidelines, or $150-$250 per service (rehearsals cost extra).

Many people would be surprised to learn that the “organ” music in their church is actually produced by an electronic synthesizer, albeit one attached to an organ keyboard. (No matter what it looks like, if there are no pipes then the sound is all electronically produced.)

Deborah
(from the choir loft)
 
… among the instruments used at Mass, the organ is to have pride of place …
Click to expand...
Does anyone know what is supposed to be so special about the organ? Here’s what I know about organs:

Although the pipe organ was invented in about 300 B.C. and known throughout the Roman Empire, it was not used in Christian worship until sometime in the tenth century.

Unlike most other instruments that can produce only one, or at most two, at a time, the organ can produce several melodies or harmonies simultaneously.

When first used in churches, the organ was able to produce musical tones that were louder and deeper than any other musical instrument. Today, however, the organ has electronic competition for both volume and pitch.

By simultaneously playing groups of pipes (that differ in size, shape, and compostion) in varying combinations, the pipe organ can create sound waves that imitate the sound of almost any other instrument – from flutes to violins to chimes, and even the human voice. Thus, the pipe organ was a pre-electronics-age music synthesizer.

A pipe organ takes up a considerable amount of space – about the same amount of room as a choir – although, unlike choristers, the pipes don’t mind being stuck in inaccessible places with no view of the altar.

Real pipe organs are prohibitively expensive, ranging in price from $400,000 to $1,500,000 and up, and requiring expensive maintenance as well. In terms of my parish, we could either install an organ or rebuild the whole church – take your pick.

Real organists are also expensive (and increasingly difficult to find). Full-time organists employed by religious institutions average $55,000 a year, according to American Guild of Organists guidelines, or $150-$250 per service (rehearsals cost extra).

Many people would be surprised to learn that the “organ” music in their church is actually produced by an electronic synthesizer, albeit one attached to an organ keyboard. (No matter what it looks like, if there are no pipes then the sound is all electronically produced.)

Deborah
(from the choir loft)
 
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debeater:
Many people would be surprised to learn that the “organ” music in their church is actually produced by an electronic synthesizer, albeit one attached to an organ keyboard. (No matter what it looks like, if there are no pipes then the sound is all electronically produced.)

Deborah
(from the choir loft)
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It’s sad that my parish has a beautiful pipe organ that they hardly use. I really enjoy music from the pipe organ. The pipe organ and the violin are my favorite instruments used in mass. For some reason I feel like my whole heart and soul are poured out in the prayers of the music when those instruments are played. It’s similar to the adrenaline of an athlete. You always give 100%, but when that adrenaline kicks in you seem to be able to give 150%. I feel an extra bit of me that comes out when those instruments are played. This probably sounds pretty weird, but that’s how I feel.
 
What instruments were played at the Last Supper ?

The only “band” Jesus had was the 12.
 
ND Mike:
It’s sad that my parish has a beautiful pipe organ that they hardly use.
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While we don’t have a pipe organ in my current church I’ve heard them all my life in the beautiful churches I went to in Pennsylvania.

My current church has an organ and a piano sitting side by side up front on the Joseph side. Some weeks we get no organ, sometimes just the Processional hymn. Never any soft reflective music of any type before mass. I guess that would be overtime. Grrr how it riles me to see her slide from the organ over to the piano.

All things being equal the organ should have pride of place…

So if you have a perfectly good organ and a perfectly good piano (all things being equal) the organ should be used. In my opinion the piano should only be used if the organ is broken and being repaired, or the organist is sick.

There is a new church being built not far from us that even though it is Mass in the round. They are puttting in a massive pipe organ. I can hardly wait to hear it.

If you miss that great organ sound check oout a show called Pipe Dreams on American Public Radio. A web search can give you your local affiliate.

Mike
  • obviously no longer an advocate of the hippie guitar Mass.
 
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debeater:
…Real pipe organs are prohibitively expensive, ranging in price from $400,000 to $1,500,000 and up, and requiring expensive maintenance as well. In terms of my parish, we could either install an organ or rebuild the whole church – take your pick.

Real organists are also expensive (and increasingly difficult to find). Full-time organists employed by religious institutions average $55,000 a year, according to American Guild of Organists guidelines, or $150-$250 per service (rehearsals cost extra)…

Deborah
(from the choir loft)
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Both new and used pipe organs can be purchased for far less than $400K. A used pipe organ can be purchased and placed for certainly under $50K – and less than half that in many cases.

organclearinghouse.com/

Smart parishes certainly don’t pay organists $55K/year. Instead, they form a guild where the expertise is handed down, generation by generation. If the guild is good, you would be surprised how many people come out of the woodworks to learn/play.
 
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