What actually makes a marriage invalid? [CNA]

[Vico]

How on earth would you or I or the Church know that for sure and in each and every case Vico?

It is the Church that is limited by the Sacraments - not God.
He gives His Life to whomsoever he Wills and does not need the Church’s permission so long as he finds a responsive heart.

Whenever there is impaired consent or understanding sanctifying grace may abound even in the most objectively mortal or irregular of ongoing situations.

“Living in a state of sin” has never logically denied the possibility of sanctifying grace being present as far as I know.

If you have a clear Magisterial statement that says otherwise I am all ears.
As Pope Francis clearly affirms my long held understanding I would be surprised if you find one.

Then again your statement above could be viewed as a mere apriori tautology.
If an irregular union does have sanctifying grace then maybe we are mistaken in thinking it is irregular . i.e. a true statement but not actually having any helpful practical application.

Originally Posted by Vico
Grace received in natural marriage is actual grace not sanctifying grace.

Because the Church teaches that sacramental marriage is between the baptized, otherwise the marriage is non sacramental. Also note that an attempt to marry between a Catholic and an unbaptized person is invalid without a dispensation (CIC 1086.1).

Actual grace is given by God even before baptism. Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

 

[commenter]

The Pope makes a statement about people in rural Argentina, who may have had very little education or religious education; who lived in a town with no “parish”, where a priest came by several times a year; who have known relatively few people who were married. He is saying we have to understand the people in that generations-old culture, don’t judge them by middle class standards. (You should also point out it is not a sin for those people to miss Mass on Sunday, when they have no car or bus, and Mass is far away).

People take that position for **those **people, and then apply it to **other **people in a very different situation. I have known families where: bride and groom went to 12 years of Catholic schools; they grew up in families where lots of people, including their own parents were married; they had full access (transportation, financial means) to marriage counseling, pastoral care, and parish and diocesan ministries non-existent in rural Argentina; they have known several priests personally, and are in driving distance of them, and many other priests if they wanted to make contact. Some of these people are “living together” outside marriage, and anyone who suggests this is not healthy is rebuked as judgemental.

Other people in the West get married, then I have heard people say the Church should annul their marriage because “they had no idea what marriage is all about”! Then they immediately want the Church to bless their next marriage, 10 minutes later, because they suddenly moved to the category of spiritually mature.

It is wrong to say that “Mercy” applies to middle class US or Europe in the same way it applies to rural Argentina. The words of Jesus to the woman caught in Adultery - “Go and sin no more” are probably the most overlooked words in Scripture. People can’t benefit from God’s mercy unless they hear the full message: God loves them; reality of good/evil;
need for repentance; the Church as a loving community.

Lots of priests are sitting in friendly, but empty confessionals today.

 

[JimG]

The June 23 episode of EWTN’s “The World Over” program had a segment discussing these matters. Here is the link.

ETA: The discussion of Pope Francis’ comments begins at about 28:00.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

The June 23 episode of EWTN’s “The World Over” program had a segment discussing these matters. Here is the link.

ETA: The discussion of Pope Francis’ comments begins at about 28:00.

Very interesting. Ta for posting the link.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Because the Church teaches that sacramental marriage is between the baptized, otherwise the marriage is non sacramental. Also note that an attempt to marry between a Catholic and an unbaptized person is invalid without a dispensation (CIC 1086.1).

Actual grace is given by God even before baptism. Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

Ah, you usual non sequitorial quotes when challenged .
Yes I understand the definition of actual grace thanks.

Let me repeat my question…why do you believe sanctification is never already at work and present with those caught up in irregular situaions.
A relevant Magisterial quote this time would be more helpful.

If you could also quote where invalidity means turning off the flow of sanctifying grace from heaven that would be good. Yet if excommunication does not to so…how can this?

 

[Vico]

Ah, you usual non sequitorial quotes when challenged .
Yes I understand the definition of actual grace thanks.

Let me repeat my question…why do you believe sanctification is never already at work and present with those caught up in irregular situaions.
A relevant Magisterial quote this time would be more helpful.

If you could also quote where invalidity means turning off the flow of sanctifying grace from heaven that would be good. Yet if excommunication does not to so…how can this?

The original question I answered is:
Blue Horizon:

vico:

Grace received in natural marriage is actual grace not sanctifying grace.

How on earth would you or I or the Church know that for sure and in each and every case Vico?

No wonder that you think it is not pertinent, since you are are asking a different question now: “[W]hy do you believe sanctification is never already at work and present with those caught up in irregular situa[t]ions.”

So the answer that I posted addresses actual grace vs sanctifying grace.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The original question I answered is:

No wonder that you think it is not pertinent, since you are are asking a different question now: “[W]hy do you believe sanctification is never already at work and present with those caught up in irregular situa[t]ions.”

So the answer that I posted addresses actual grace vs sanctifying grace.

Vico the irregular cases I mention admittedly may not be natural marriage … they are therefore even stronger cases for my point vis a vis your natural marriages.

So I am even more appalled at your pessimistic certitude re God’s limited graces in the marital life and love of such couples.

Again I ask where your certitude comes from that the habits of marital love there are never the result of God’s gift of sanctifying grace?

Your position seems little more than a more sophisticated version of OT ritual purity applied to the Sacraments and the states that arise from them.
We all know Jesus rejected ritual purity as the sole means of access to full justification and life in God.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

How on earth would you or I or the Church know that for sure and in each and every case Vico?

It is the Church that is limited by the Sacraments - not God.
He gives His Life to whomsoever he Wills and does not need the Church’s permission so long as he finds a responsive heart.

Whenever there is impaired consent or understanding sanctifying grace may abound even in the most objectively mortal or irregular of ongoing situations.

“Living in a state of sin” has never logically denied the possibility of sanctifying grace being present as far as I know.

If you have a clear Magisterial statement that says otherwise I am all ears.
As Pope Francis clearly affirms my long held understanding I would be surprised if you find one.

Then again your statement above could be viewed as a mere apriori tautology.
If an irregular union does have sanctifying grace then maybe we are mistaken in thinking it is irregular . i.e. a true statement but not actually having any helpful practical application.

God gives sanctifying grace to those who have received the grace of baptism and are not in mortal sin. Obvious, but this has a couple of consequences. “Not in mortal sin” for a Catholic couple who cohabit without being sacramentally married can only mean they are living in invincible ignorance, i.e. they truly do no know that as Catholics they are meant to have their marriage blessed by a priest.

This is clearly not the case in the example given by the Pope, who speaks of Argentinian Catholics who refuse to marry in church because they know full well that a Catholic marriage is permanent and - the men at least - don’t want to undertake that kind of commitment. The fact that they get sacramentally married later on shows that they know their civil marriage is not a true marriage and that as Catholics they should get married in church.

The only kind of Catholics I can think of who would have the good faith necessary to enable them to receive grace in cohabitation would be those who were nominal Catholics only, never received a formation in the Faith and never attended church, in effect ex-catholic pagans.

As a final note, I think it would help the thread a great deal if the words “you” and “your” were kept out of posts. A lot of Catholics who come here are greatly troubled and with good reason. We need to be charitable with each other. Pope Francis would do as much.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

God gives sanctifying grace to those who have received the grace of baptism and are not in mortal sin.

How would any of us know if any particular person is “in mortal sin” as opposed to being in a “state of objective mortal sin”.
I believe you have confused the two.

“Not in mortal sin” for a Catholic couple who cohabit without being sacramentally married can only mean they are living in invincible ignorance,

I think you are wading into theological waters a little beyond your depth sorry.

My wife and I happen to cohabit without being sacramentally married and have done so with the full blessings of the Church in the person of my local Monsignor. I receive Communion and believe there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn’t.

So I do not believe I am living in ignorance either vincible or invincible.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

How would any of us know if any particular person is “in mortal sin” as opposed to being in a “state of objective mortal sin”.
I believe you have confused the two.

Not really. “A state of mortal sin” means just that - the individual’s soul is cut off from God and has no sanctifying grace. “A state of objective mortal sin” means that the circumstances the individual finds himself in are gravely sinful, but through ignorance or lack of volition he does not actually sin. I understand the distinction between the two and I meant the former.

I think you are wading into theological waters a little beyond your depth sorry.

My wife and I happen to cohabit without being sacramentally married and have done so with the full blessings of the Church in the person of my local Monsignor. I receive Communion and believe there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn’t.

So I do not believe I am living in ignorance either vincible or invincible.

I do not know your circumstances and can only repeat what the Church has always taught, that a couple who are not sacramentally married may, for sufficiently grave reasons, live together provided they abstain from marital relations. This is Church teaching, not the opinion of any particular cleric.

As regards the subject matter of this thread, I have assumed from the start that the couples the Pope is talking about have sexual relations since they have children.

 

[Vico]

Vico the irregular cases I mention admittedly may not be natural marriage … they are therefore even stronger cases for my point vis a vis your natural marriages.

So I am even more appalled at your pessimistic certitude re God’s limited graces in the marital life and love of such couples.

Again I ask where your certitude comes from that the habits of marital love there are never the result of God’s gift of sanctifying grace?

Your position seems little more than a more sophisticated version of OT ritual purity applied to the Sacraments and the states that arise from them.
We all know Jesus rejected ritual purity as the sole means of access to full justification and life in God.

You were responding to my post, about Catholics in free union, ostensibly in a state of invincible ignorance, and where both are not both baptized, which would cover the two cases involving a Catholic:

vico:

These people are not in a sacramental marriage but a free union so they are not able to be admitted to the sacraments (except for confession). Grace received in natural marriage is actual grace not sanctifying grace, an also with sacramental marriage, when not properly disposed, there is actual grace not sanctifying grace.

• Actual grace is given even before baptism, that leads to conversion.
• Sanctifying grace is not available to those that are not baptized.
• Any attempt to marry between a Catholic and an unbaptized person is* invalid *without a dispensation.
• A marriage between two Christians has a supernatural element so sanctifying grace is available in a sacramental marriage but not a natural marriage.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Not really. “A state of mortal sin” means just that - the individual’s soul is cut off from God and has no sanctifying grace. “A state of objective mortal sin” means that the circumstances the individual finds himself in are gravely sinful, but through ignorance or lack of volition he does not actually sin. I understand the distinction between the two and I meant the former.

So back to the question…how would anyone know who is with or without s.grace through allegedly being able to identify culpable mortal sin?.
In which case I do not understand how your original contribution sheds any further light on the point discussed other than to state what we all know…that culpable mortal sin and s.grace do not go together?

I do not know your circumstances and can only repeat what the Church has always taught, that a couple who are not sacramentally married may, for sufficiently grave reasons, live together provided they abstain from marital relations. This is Church teaching.

This seems poorly expressd. You mean to say Catholic couple don’t you?

The only kind of Catholics I can think of who would have the good faith necessary to enable them to receive grace in cohabitation would be those who were nominal Catholics only, never received a formation in the Faith and never attended church, in effect ex-catholic pagans.

This is well put I think. And it is so for greater numbers than we would like to accept methinks.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

*]Sanctifying grace is not available to those that are not baptized.

I think Adam and Eve, John the Baptist and Mary might have issues with you here Vico.
Also the Jewish people for whom circumcision still remits original sin.

But I am open to being corrected if you can reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years.

Originally Posted by vico
Grace received in natural marriage is actual grace not sanctifying grace.

So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Seriously, where do you dig this stuff up from?

 

[Vico]

I think Adam and Eve, John the Baptist and Mary might have issues with you here Vico.
Also the Jewish people for whom circumcision still remits original sin.

But I am open to being corrected if you can reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years.

So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Seriously, where do you dig this stuff up from?

1

Quote (Vico): Sanctifying grace is not available to those that are not baptized.
Quote (Blue Horizon) … reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years

Answer: In that quote, I am referring to today.

CIC Can. 842 §1. A person who has not received baptism cannot be admitted validly to the other sacraments.

Baltimore Catechism No. 3:
Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: .Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 620. When was baptism instituted?

A. Baptism was instituted, very probably, about the time Our Lord was baptized by St. John, and its reception was commanded when after His resurrection Our Lord said to His Apostles: “All power is given to Me in heaven and in earth. Going, therefore, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Q. 626. Did not St. John the Baptist institute the Sacrament of Baptism?
A. St. John the Baptist did not institute the Sacrament of Baptism, for Christ alone could institute a Sacrament. The baptism given by St. John had the effect of a Sacramental; that is, it did not of itself give grace, but prepared the way for it.

Q. 627. Are actual sins ever remitted by Baptism?
A. Actual sins and all the punishment due to them are remitted by Baptism, if the person baptized be guilty of any.

Q. 592. When is a Sacrament said to give, and when is it said to increase, grace in our souls?
A. A Sacrament is said to give grace when there is no grace whatever in the soul, or in other words, when the soul is in mortal sin. A Sacrament is said to increase grace when there is already grace in the soul, to which more is added by the Sacrament received.

Q. 593. Which are the Sacraments that give sanctifying grace?
A. The Sacraments that give sanctifying grace are Baptism and Penance; and they are called Sacraments of the dead.

2

Quote (Blue Horizon): So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Answer: I did not say what you are asking about. However, a sacramental grace specific to a particular sacrament derives from sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is increased with the sacramental marriage which is possible only for baptized couples. Mixed marriage refers to Catholic with non-Catholic, either baptized (disparity of cult) or non-baptized (disparity of worship).

Baltimore Catechism No. 3:

Q. 602. What is sacramental grace?
A. Sacramental grace is a special help which God gives, to attain the end for which He instituted each Sacrament.

Q. 603. Is the Sacramental grace independent of the sanctifying grace given in the Sacraments?
A. The Sacramental grace is not independent of the sanctifying grace given in the Sacraments; for it is the sanctifying grace that gives us a certain right to special helps – called Sacramental grace – in each Sacrament, as often as we have to fulfill the end of the Sacrament or are tempted against it.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

1

Quote (Vico): Sanctifying grace is not available to those that are not baptized.
Quote (Blue Horizon) … reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years

Answer: In that quote, I am referring to today.

CIC Can. 842 §1. A person who has not received baptism cannot be admitted validly to the other sacraments.

Baltimore Catechism No. 3:
Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: .Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 620. When was baptism instituted?

A. Baptism was instituted, very probably, about the time Our Lord was baptized by St. John, and its reception was commanded when after His resurrection Our Lord said to His Apostles: “All power is given to Me in heaven and in earth. Going, therefore, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Q. 626. Did not St. John the Baptist institute the Sacrament of Baptism?
A. St. John the Baptist did not institute the Sacrament of Baptism, for Christ alone could institute a Sacrament. The baptism given by St. John had the effect of a Sacramental; that is, it did not of itself give grace, but prepared the way for it.

Q. 627. Are actual sins ever remitted by Baptism?
A. Actual sins and all the punishment due to them are remitted by Baptism, if the person baptized be guilty of any.

Q. 592. When is a Sacrament said to give, and when is it said to increase, grace in our souls?
A. A Sacrament is said to give grace when there is no grace whatever in the soul, or in other words, when the soul is in mortal sin. A Sacrament is said to increase grace when there is already grace in the soul, to which more is added by the Sacrament received.

Q. 593. Which are the Sacraments that give sanctifying grace?
A. The Sacraments that give sanctifying grace are Baptism and Penance; and they are called Sacraments of the dead.

2

Quote (Blue Horizon): So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Answer: I did not say what you are asking about. However, a sacramental grace specific to a particular sacrament derives from sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is increased with the sacramental marriage which is possible only for baptized couples. Mixed marriage refers to Catholic with non-Catholic, either baptized (disparity of cult) or non-baptized (disparity of worship).

Baltimore Catechism No. 3:

Q. 602. What is sacramental grace?
A. Sacramental grace is a special help which God gives, to attain the end for which He instituted each Sacrament.

Q. 603. Is the Sacramental grace independent of the sanctifying grace given in the Sacraments?
A. The Sacramental grace is not independent of the sanctifying grace given in the Sacraments; for it is the sanctifying grace that gives us a certain right to special helps – called Sacramental grace – in each Sacrament, as often as we have to fulfill the end of the Sacrament or are tempted against it.

Vico your inability to understand simple questions and provide relevant responses and apposite Magisterial support has been entertaining.

BTW, with the new Catechism the Baltimore Catechism (never a Magisterial Document as such) no longer has any significant authority - especially on those formulations the current Catechism saw fit to quietly ignore rather than repeat.

 

[Tomdstone]

Vico the irregular cases I mention admittedly may not be natural marriage …

Is cohabitation without being married a kind of fornication?

 

[Vico]

Vico your inability to understand simple questions and provide relevant responses and apposite Magisterial support has been entertaining.

BTW, with the new Catechism the Baltimore Catechism (never a Magisterial Document as such) no longer has any significant authority - especially on those formulations the current Catechism saw fit to quietly ignore rather than repeat.

What simple question did I not understand?
1

Quote (Vico): Sanctifying grace is not available to those that are not baptized.
Quote (Blue Horizon) … reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years

or

2

Quote (Blue Horizon): So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Even though the Baltimore Catechism is a Magisterial document as such, give me a list of documents that you consider Magisterial documents as such (and free from doctrinal error) with your added criteria of 200 years.

 

[Vico]

I think Adam and Eve, John the Baptist and Mary might have issues with you here Vico.
Also the Jewish people for whom circumcision still remits original sin.

But I am open to being corrected if you can reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years.

So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Seriously, where do you dig this stuff up from?

Alternate Sources:

1

Quote (Vico): Sanctifying grace is not available to those that are not baptized.
Quote (Blue Horizon) … reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years

Answer: In that quote, I am referring to today.

CIC Can. 842 §1. A person who has not received baptism cannot be admitted validly to the other sacraments.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1223 All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfillment in Christ Jesus. He begins his public life after having himself baptized by St. John the Baptist in the Jordan.17 After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."18

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."47

2

Quote (Blue Horizon): So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Answer: I did not say what you are asking about. However, a sacramental grace specific to a particular sacrament derives from sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is increased with the sacramental marriage which is possible only for baptized couples. Mixed marriage refers to Catholic with non-Catholic, either baptized (disparity of cult) or non-baptized (disparity of worship).

Moto Proprio Matrimonia Mixta, 1970, Pope Paul VI: “Mixed marriages, that is to say marriages in which one party is a Catholic and the other a non-Catholic, whether baptized or not, have always been given careful attention by the Church in pursuance of her duty.”

CIC Can. 1086 §1. A marriage between two persons, one of whom has been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, and the other of whom is not baptized, is invalid.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."47

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Is cohabitation without being married a kind of fornication?

That as really interesting question TS. This is a relatively unexplored area of moral theology from my experience.

I think the first thing to note is that there are many significantly different situations that would need to be addressed differently.

We can probably all agree that fornication is an act of sex between those who have never been married.

But things not infrequently start to get blurred methinks when we try and isolate those who are not “married”.

At first it seems clear who we mean when we speak of the unmarried.
But when we start talking of mixed marriages or those between the unbaptised (who do not need to follow our strict Catholic requirements of proper form).

In natural marriages it is the public mutual consent of the couple that effects the bond.
In some cultures I believe the simple act of a mature woman moving from her father’s house to live in the house of her partner’s family is understood to effect such consent. Is that cohabitation fornication? Probably not.

Then we have to start making distinctions between the bond known only to God alone - and that which is merely assumed true by Man/Priest by way of fallible Canon/Civil Law instruments.

If a pair of true blue sacramentally married Catholics divorce after 10 years and a Tribunal annuls their “marriage” … were they in fact fornicating while falsely married?

Technically yes I think so. But of course their children are not labelled bastards because that is a legal matter/designation not a moral one I suppose.

So that raises a question as to whether we define “fornication” as what God sees (they were not in fact truly married ever) or what Man (civil/canon law) sees (at the time they were legally married). Of course they were well intentioned regardless so even if they were objectively fornicating before God it is not at all personally imputable.

I don’t know what you really are getting at with your question.
Suffice it to say its a complicated matter I think with no single correct answer from what I can see.

But most of us can practically recognise what constitutes the sort of irresponsible sexual behaviour that the sin of fornication truly connotes in different cultural settings for a follower of Christ regardless.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

What simple question did I not understand?
1

Quote (Vico): Sanctifying grace is not available to those that are not baptized.
Quote (Blue Horizon) … reference your above quote from a Magisterial source within the last 200 years

or

2

Quote (Blue Horizon): So the marital virtues practised by Catholics in a mixed marriage are never from sanctifying grace and do not merit further s.grace?

Even though the Baltimore Catechism is a Magisterial document as such, give me a list of documents that you consider Magisterial documents as such (and free from doctrinal error) with your added criteria of 200 years.

Vico I am not really into pedantic I said but you said scenarios as its already flogging a dead horse and better to move on.

My question has always been, regardless of what you originally meant, “Let me repeat my question…why do you believe sanctification is never already at work and present with those caught up in irregular situations (or natural marriages for that matter).”

But lets change the question to why you seem to believe Mary or John the Baptist or Adam and Eve never possessed sanctifying grace before Jesus began his public ministry?