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diggerdomer
Guest
Are you suggesting that there is a mutually exclusive understanding of Adam as either “real” or “symbolic” according to Catholic teaching?
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grannymh
Guest
The problem is that there are catholics who say Adam is absolutely symbolic. They publically and privately deny Catholic teaching. Their claim that priests, etc., teach the symbolic or figurative Adam sounds wild but I am sure that it is plausible. One such catholic reminded me of early Matthew Fox.
Catholic teaching is that Adam is absolutely real – period. However, there can also be symbolism or figurative language surrounding Adam. But that only enhances the teaching; it does not change the reality of Adam.
The whole bit about Adam not being real shook my faith because I recognized the implications. Concentrating on what the Church was teaching convinced me that Adam was real.
Having been in the communications area, I understand the importance of “nuance”.
That is why I would like more explanation from you (post 30). Humani Generis is new to me. Now
I want it to feel like old comfortable shoes.
Blessings,
granny
Human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
J
JPCalifornia
Guest
Is sad to read that we are not willing to accept the first 11 Chapters of Genesis literally. Most Biblical doctrines come from these chapters. If these chapters are not believed but as a nice moral story, those doctrines fall to the ground. When Jesus talked about marriage, He went back to Genesis, when Paul talks about authority he goes back to Genesis, when speaking about salvation we have to look back to Genesis for the origin of sin in Genesis. The coming of Christ as in the days of Noah (Genesis). I we can accept the truth literal meaning of Genesis how can we accept the true literal meaning of the New Testament. If Adan is an allegory…maybe Jesus is an allegory and so is the resurrection and heaven… hell…
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diggerdomer
Guest
I think we need to attend to the different ways “literally” may be understood. On one hand, the Church or course relies on the “literal sense” of Scripture (see CCC 109-119).
On the other hand, not all parts of Scripture are “literalistic” in the sense that the only or even the true (or most true) witness attested to is best received by this sense. Allegory, myth, fable, legend, etc. are all legitimate “forms” within which the truth God wished to impart may be expressed by the human authors.
Gen 1-11 are often noted or described as “pre-history” meaning the accounts there are not understood in an historical sense as most of us today would understand such. This is not a problem for Catholic exegesis or interpretation.
Adam (and Eve) are both real and symbolic.
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grannymh
Guest
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=675&pictureid=5622
*This picture represents the world of the ancient Hebrews. The picture is from the New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition. *
There is another factor to this drawing beyond being a pre-scientific concept of the universe. This drawing demonstrates the ancient belief that the first human, Adam, was both mortal and immortal. His body and subsequently that of his descendants would return to the earth, but they would not disappear. God continued to watch over the dead because of their immortal souls. Our spiritual immortal soul enables us to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 355 - 421)
Since it is a graphic representation of the Hebrew conception of the world, please note the heading, “Heavenly Seat of the Divinity” placed above the world. The black area is captioned “Sheol”. This is the home of the dead (also called the nether world) in the depths of the earth.
When looking at this drawing from the point of view of a theistic culture, one sees God present in the prime position. There is the vertical relationship of God, the Creator, to all the known world. What is even more interesting is the inclusion of Sheol on the vertical line extending from the “Heavenly Seat of the Divinity.” Here, in Sheol, are Adam and his descendants who experienced death because of original sin. These faithful people wait for the “new Adam” Jesus Christ Who will bring salvation to all. Jesus, by being totally obedient to the Father will make amends superabundantly for the disobedience of Adam. Dying a painful death, Jesus opens the gates of heaven.
The Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn, General Editor, ISBN: 978-0-385-51229-9 says that God’s power extended over Sheol which was considered a place where the dead dwelt in gloom. Yet, there was the hope that God would not abandon His people and would bring redemption. (Scripture references include: Psalm 139: 7-8; Proverbs 15: 11;
Job 26:6; Wisdom 16:13; Psalm 16:10; Psalm 49:16; 1 Samuel 2:6)
The connection between God, the world, and us as descendents of Adam, is still a vertical line.
Blessings,
granny
Human life is meant for eternal life with God.
*This picture represents the world of the ancient Hebrews. The picture is from the New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition. *
There is another factor to this drawing beyond being a pre-scientific concept of the universe. This drawing demonstrates the ancient belief that the first human, Adam, was both mortal and immortal. His body and subsequently that of his descendants would return to the earth, but they would not disappear. God continued to watch over the dead because of their immortal souls. Our spiritual immortal soul enables us to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 355 - 421)
Since it is a graphic representation of the Hebrew conception of the world, please note the heading, “Heavenly Seat of the Divinity” placed above the world. The black area is captioned “Sheol”. This is the home of the dead (also called the nether world) in the depths of the earth.
When looking at this drawing from the point of view of a theistic culture, one sees God present in the prime position. There is the vertical relationship of God, the Creator, to all the known world. What is even more interesting is the inclusion of Sheol on the vertical line extending from the “Heavenly Seat of the Divinity.” Here, in Sheol, are Adam and his descendants who experienced death because of original sin. These faithful people wait for the “new Adam” Jesus Christ Who will bring salvation to all. Jesus, by being totally obedient to the Father will make amends superabundantly for the disobedience of Adam. Dying a painful death, Jesus opens the gates of heaven.
The Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn, General Editor, ISBN: 978-0-385-51229-9 says that God’s power extended over Sheol which was considered a place where the dead dwelt in gloom. Yet, there was the hope that God would not abandon His people and would bring redemption. (Scripture references include: Psalm 139: 7-8; Proverbs 15: 11;
Job 26:6; Wisdom 16:13; Psalm 16:10; Psalm 49:16; 1 Samuel 2:6)
The connection between God, the world, and us as descendents of Adam, is still a vertical line.
Blessings,
granny
Human life is meant for eternal life with God.
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Rsiewell
Guest
Maybe I am just having a long day but I dont understand what your last message had to do with this thread. Interesting history of beliefs but totally confused me. What exactly is your point.
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JPCalifornia
Guest
View attachment 7526
If you saw a picture of a skeleton, it would be impossible for a person without any understanding of the human anatomy the truth about what a skeleton look likes and how it work in the living body. The true Bible student would have known that the Bible is not a scientific book but the science in it is all true.
The evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
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grannymh
Guest
Busted as my kids would say.
I stretched “sources” to include the ancient Hebrew world.Realistically, the literal Adam includes the concept that human nature is an unique unification of rational/corporeal, spirit/matter, soul and body. This is in marked contrast to the philosophy of materialism, i.e., all reality is matter. The result is that empirical science is limited when it comes to human beings. This does not mean that science is somehow bad. No way. Natural science is an amazing gift from God. It is simply that the immaterial, immortal spiritual soul is beyond the proverbial microscope.
This particular drawing is often cited as an indication of how little the ancient Hebrews knew about the workings of the world, yada, yada, yada. After the 25th time looking at this drawing, I realized that while these ancient peoples were not scientists, they were well aware of the teachings Adam and Eve would have passed down through their descendents. As my Irish mother would say: “The proof is in the pudding.”
“If I go up to the heavens, You are there; if I sink to the nether world, You are present there.” is not the caption for this drawing: it is verse 8, Psalm 139.
As for my point? Not sure, yet. Curiosity about the real Adam and Eve is the motivation. Why not look for sources of info in unusual places?
Blessings,
granny
All human life is worthy of protection from the moment of conception.
J
JPCalifornia
Guest
The best information comes from the simple understanding of Genesis
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grannymh
Guest
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