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D0UBTFIRE
Guest
Maybe something has changed but I believe I read that if you were gay you were not to attempt becoming a priest.
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eamonnroma
Guest
So the priesthood / religious life becomes a refuge for gay people?
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D0UBTFIRE
Guest
So we don’t have a right to having a family? That’s just something society made up? Because from my angle, we’re social creatures and need families. I don’t mean passing on our genes per se, but adopting or making a life with a partner (gay or straight) are alternatives to having children biologically if one desires a family… It really seems against nature to me to tell someone they don’t have right to a family…we need physical touch and love to thrive, we see that in premature babies all the time. It’s a human need.I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, D0ubtfire, and you’re right there are times when (speaking personally, of course), it seems grossly unreasonable. But I also strongly identify with a lot of what Robyn P quoted above (maybe I, and the woman quoted, are just largely asexual lesbians?!?!), and I wouldn’t say it’s a perpetual struggle.
I think that the Church can sometimes be accused of rather fetishising virginity and abstinence to a rather unhealthy degree, but there is absolute truth in what she says, that it allows one to be open to other things - other experiences and other ways of serving God. I don’t like a society where the default position is one where you add most to the sum total of the lived human experience by having lots of sex (and one day having a family); and while the Church claims to point away slightly askance from the direction society is heading - it, like our culture, is obsessed with sex (just with a different attitude about it!) - I think everyone would be much better off if we all dropped the subject. I also agree we live in a very atomised and individualistic society.
I’m an aunt twice over (and another, 2nd niece is due in about 3 weeks!) and that is awesome. But I do thing we’ve reached a stage where we’ve started to consider that having relationships, families, has become a right rather than perhaps a privilege. (One enjoyed by most of the population to be sure).
Any further thoughts?
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Sarcelle
Guest
I disagree. If you want to get married and no one wants to marry you, you are pretty much stuck. There is no choice in the matter. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. Capisch?
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casslean
Guest
I think the “rights-based” ideology is something that society made up. We have an obligation to follow the path the God called us to follow, and if that means not having a biological family - because family can be and is much more than the person you marry or the children you produce - then that was God’s plan for you.
There are lots of heterosexuals who are not called to marriage and not called to have children. I’m not married and have never had any significant relationships. I love children, I like the idea of being married, but the reality is, if that isn’t God’s plan for me, then it isn’t God’s plan for me. It doesn’t matter how God chooses to reveal that plan to me, it is His plan. I just need to follow it.
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Murmurs
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Ah! I see what you mean and I’m sorry that what I wrote before wasn’t very clear on that front (reading it through even I can barely understand what I meant, so forgive me!). I think I was reading marriage/children etc for family and that’s not quite the same thing. Indeed you make that distinction and I agree with it.
For what it’s worth I don’t think the Church teaches there is anything wrong with having a (obviously platonic!) very close relationship with someone of the same gender as oneself. Obviously there are people here and in the wider catholic populace who would be screaming about the near temptation of sin but while sex is certainly wonderful, it’s not essential. I wasn’t for a minute saying that gay people should in the Church’s eyes be without that kind of nurturing love that often can be only or at least best found in a relationship. (I don’t want to bring my personal life into a broader point too much, but I have found you can have a huge amount of intimacy without doing anything ‘sinful’ as far the church is concerned, but I accept that everyone is very different on that front…).
People need families. I could not agree more. The Church currently has issues navigating the realisation that gay people are people as well as gay, and need the same things as everyone else, on the one hand - and its traditional teaching on the other. Some day (hopefully) soon, that circle can be fully squared without upsetting either side. It’s not nice, and like any change the church makes it will take a very very long time. But we are getting there, slowly. Either way, I do think sometimes that a purportedly Christian institution that focusses to much on its own definitions of other peoples’ sins (sexual or otherwise), and not enough always on other peoples’ needs, is in a bad place. The Catholic Church is a wonderful, wholly wonderful, thing, created and led after divine instruction and example. Its human leadership (I don’t necessarily mean the Holy Father here at all) can sometimes be, for all the good it means to do, utterly diabolical.
This may not answer your question, but I completely agree with you. I think I only live with it by putting tremendous energy into other things. This can’t be a solution though. It’s not how human beings work. I hope, though, I don’t sound pessimistic…while the status quo is entirely unacceptable I think there is (as always) great hope for the future.
God bless,
Murmurs
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Vico
Guest
For holy orders, one must not practice homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”.
For religions one must “be able to overcome their homosexual tendencies” an not maintain “that it is possible to adopt a third way”.
Vatican:**2. Homosexuality and the Ordained Ministry **
From the time of the Second Vatican Council until today, various Documents of the Magisterium, and especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church, have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The *Catechism *distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.
Regarding *acts, *it teaches that Sacred Scripture presents them as grave sins. The Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, under no circumstance can they be approved.
Deep-seated homosexual *tendencies, *which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8].
In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practice homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”[10].
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.htmlD) SEXUALITY AND FORMATION 39. Today’s generations have often grown up in such integrated situations that boys and girls are not helped to know and appreciate their own respective wealth and limitations. Formation in this area is particularly important due to apostolic contacts of all kinds and the greater collaboration which has begun between religious men and religious women as well as present cultural currents. Early desegregation and close and frequent cooperation do not necessarily guarantee maturity in the relationships between the two sexes. It will therefore be necessary to take means to promote this maturity and to strengthen it with a view toward formation for the observance of perfect chastity.
Moreover, men and women must become aware of their specific place in the plan of God, of the unique contribution which respectively they should make to the work of salvation. Future religious should thus be offered the possibility of reflecting on the role of sexuality in the divine plan of creation and salvation.
In this context reasons must be given and understood to explain why those who do not seem to be able to overcome their homosexual tendencies, or who maintain that it is possible to adopt a third way, “living in an ambiguous state between celibacy and marriage” (104) must be dismissed from the religious life.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccscrlife/documents/rc_con_ccscrlife_doc_02021990_directives-on-formation_en.html
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D0UBTFIRE
Guest
But even a platonic relationship, especially one where a residence is shared, would be viewed as a problem, and as causing scandal (which is a sin in and of itself), no? The way things are right now just seem terribly unjust to me. And it’s really hard to accept that an organization that seems to support such an injustice is really “the pillar of truth.” My mind wants to say yes to the Church, because it has a pretty good argument that it in fact is the Church Jesus started, but my heart is saying “No!” because truth doesn’t promote injustice, and so I’m left with the nagging feeling that this just can’t really be Christ’s Church. That he either didn’t really start one or if he did it’s more like the Protestant version where it’s an invisible church made up of believers. Or, alternatively, this is His Church, but it was wrong about these social/moral issues, and perhaps the rigorists apply infallibility to widely, or the whole doctrine of infallibility was wrong to begin with.
Were you raised Catholic or was this something you converted to? What would you say to an LGBT person who wants to consider becoming Catholic? What would you say to a child who is Catholic who comes out to you about their homosexuality? How are we supposed to handle these things with love in a Church culture that teaches that gays and lesbians are “disordered”?? I think celibacy is awesome if someone chooses it but it seems so wrong to have it forced on people, it seems so wrong to tell someone they were made the wrong way when it seems perfectly natural to them.
It’s hard to believe that the Church is right about this. How do you do it?
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Mary_Estelle
Guest
Well, I did not say a gay person shouldn’t or couldn’t enter religious life, but to think twice before doing so and to be forthright about their inclination. As far as pedaphiles are concerned they are likely to be gay and find the young easy marks and vulnerable.
Yes, nuns /sisters have been known to have gay orientations, but it seems to be less problematic than for gay priest. It is why at one time the rule of not having “Particular Friendships” was observed.
Now, consider a gay seminary student in a dorm or school for young men studying for the priesthood. Would there be a temptation to act upon one’s sexual orientation? If a heteral person is tempted do you think a gay person might also act upon ones desire/orientation?
There are no easy answers to this as nothing is always black and white, but with a lot of gray areas. It will depend upon a superior’s discretion as to whither one gets “in” or not.
I think one time when I was reading the NT that Jesus accepted some or others that were “different,” but I don’ remember the passage or context. It was vague, and I don’t know what it referred to. Also, I am upon minded , but a relaying what I a aware of within the Church. I know, I know, someone is bound to correct me according to their view. So be it.
Yes, nuns /sisters have been known to have gay orientations, but it seems to be less problematic than for gay priest. It is why at one time the rule of not having “Particular Friendships” was observed.
Now, consider a gay seminary student in a dorm or school for young men studying for the priesthood. Would there be a temptation to act upon one’s sexual orientation? If a heteral person is tempted do you think a gay person might also act upon ones desire/orientation?
There are no easy answers to this as nothing is always black and white, but with a lot of gray areas. It will depend upon a superior’s discretion as to whither one gets “in” or not.
I think one time when I was reading the NT that Jesus accepted some or others that were “different,” but I don’ remember the passage or context. It was vague, and I don’t know what it referred to. Also, I am upon minded , but a relaying what I a aware of within the Church. I know, I know, someone is bound to correct me according to their view. So be it.
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esieffe
Guest
A post in this thread asks what he or she should tell their children if they were gay about making families. I absolutely am not chastising the post, or the question but two guys or two gals cannot make babies. I think the underlying question really is or should be, "what am I to say to my children arriving at the age of reason if they say they have SSA about their prospects of happiness and fulfillment in their lives? This is the real question.
The answer is there is great hope for happiness. There is always room for any Catholic to seek and find happiness, straight single or SSA not withstanding. Single straight Catholics are called to chastity and seem to accept it all fairly well. Why can’t gay Catholics accept this? I am not picking on anyone or any side to this long running discussion. Please tell us what to say in order to make the message heard and accepted. I really mean this with all the good intentions, well wishes and prayer, I can muster, what would you have everyone say?
Yours, always in Christ!
The answer is there is great hope for happiness. There is always room for any Catholic to seek and find happiness, straight single or SSA not withstanding. Single straight Catholics are called to chastity and seem to accept it all fairly well. Why can’t gay Catholics accept this? I am not picking on anyone or any side to this long running discussion. Please tell us what to say in order to make the message heard and accepted. I really mean this with all the good intentions, well wishes and prayer, I can muster, what would you have everyone say?
Yours, always in Christ!
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esieffe
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Great post!
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Memaw
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I don’t think they can become priests because of all the harm some have done to the young people and the good priests. God Bless, Memaw
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Dorothy
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I just can’t help but repeat that we all have crosses in our life. Our Lord Jesus Christ makes it possible for us to carry them, and to grant us His Peace while doing so.
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Personanongrata
Guest
My gay friends, family and co-workers are dating, getting married and having children just like my straight friends, family and co-workers. I choose to celebrate them all the same.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Yes, I do see your point.
It seems like if you want to live life chastely as a homosexual, even roommates of the same gender can be cause of scandal, never mind roommates of the opposite sex. It seems like one is being sentenced to solitary confinement.
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D0UBTFIRE
Guest
When I spoke about making a family I wasn’t talking about making babies. I was talking about the human need for affection from loved ones, the desire for companionship and to not grow old alone, and so I spoke of the priesthood and religious life, adoption and/or a lifelong partnership…I even mentioned a lifelong partnership without sex. My point being that it seems that there is NO option for LGBT people other than living alone until they die. And this realization sets in at a young age when they first discover that they’re gay and Catholic, which I find particularly cruel, to tell a child he has to be alone forever. It’s like a death sentence. Because it’s being forced on them that they can’t make any kind of family. Unless I’m missing something - are you aware of what kind of family gay Catholics allowed to make? I mean it seems that even if a single gay person decides to be a foster parent - that even THAT is scandalous. It’s like they’re rejected by the religion itself. Like the other poster said, the Church is very aware that gay people are gay, but the seem to forget that gay people are people. People need families.A post in this thread asks what he or she should tell their children if they were gay about making families. I absolutely am not chastising the post, or the question but two guys or two gals cannot make babies. I think the underlying question really is or should be, "what am I to say to my children arriving at the age of reason if they say they have SSA about their prospects of happiness and fulfillment in their lives? This is the real question.
The answer is there is great hope for happiness. There is always room for any Catholic to seek and find happiness, straight single or SSA not withstanding. Single straight Catholics are called to chastity and seem to accept it all fairly well. Why can’t gay Catholics accept this? I am not picking on anyone or any side to this long running discussion. Please tell us what to say in order to make the message heard and accepted. I really mean this with all the good intentions, well wishes and prayer, I can muster, what would you have everyone say?
Yours, always in Christ!
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Sarcelle
Guest
So what can they become? If they do not get married and they are not allowed to become priest, what is their vocation?
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Dorothy
Guest
Perhaps you hadn’t explored the site yet.
Here is a review to read I found on a link on that site, about a movie called “Desire of the Everlasting Hills”.
It tells about three people with SSA; it is not long to read.
crisismagazine.com/2014/hearts-restless
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D0UBTFIRE
Guest
I don’t know, but this is where it gets nonsensical to me… The only vocation they’re allowed to pursue is to be Single. But aren’t vocations like callings? Aren’t we supposed to discern our vocation not have it mandated to us (like we can’t be pressured into priesthood or marriage)? It seems that they’re being forced into being single.
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schaeffer
Guest
I know gay people who married someone of the opposite sex, had kids and raised families. It’s not the norm, but if both parties agree to live a sacramental marriage and carry it out…The people I know who did this are of past generations, when living an outwardly homosexual lifestyle was not possible, nor would children be adopted to homosexual couples, singles and artificial insemination etc was not available.
They desired to have the family experience and that was a means of doing so . I am not referring to people who were dishonest with their partner and lived a homosexual lifestyle on the sly, but people who went into the marriage understanding the nature of the sexual attraction. I also know of couples that went the route of dishonesty as well, with unhappy endings.
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