What are gay Catholics supposed to do?

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Scandal should be a non issue if people didn’t stick their nose where it didn’t belong. Seems like a gay person should be allowed to live with their romantic partner of the same sex as long as they’re not having sex. But barring that, it should be okay for a gay man to live with a lesbian woman since people know there is no chance of anything wrong going on.

And yeah, gay people are allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex as long as they’re honest about it. Marriages don’t have to be about love and/or sexual attraction, they just have to be permanent - think of old school royals marrying for politics.
To provide a temptation to sin is scandal and that may be provided to each other by living together.

Modern Catholic Dictionary - ScandalAny action or its omission, not necessarily sinful in itself, that is likely to induce another to do something morally wrong. Direct scandal, also called diabolical, has the deliberate intention to induce another to sin. In indirect scandal a person does something that he or she forsees will at least likely lead another to commit sin, but this is rather tolerated than positively desired. (Etym. Latin scandalum, stumbling block.)
 
If you don’t already see a difference then I’m not likely going to convince you of one. However, I would say that any woman whose suffered from infertility or who has lost her children would say that you’re in a much better position than they for your children exist and are living, regardless of whether they live with you or not, and therefore you have a family and they may very well not. You also would have the prospect of living with your grown children later in life as needed. A person without kids would not have that.

As for the thing in bold…I kinda want to start a thread on it to see opinions and if maybe anyone else has some references but,
This is the only thing I’ve seen on the matter: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=798268
Your link is a long way from the Church frowning on gay/single adoption. You stated it as fact rather than your opinion.

As far as not understanding the difference, you’re just wrong. You are the one on this form with self expressed doubts about the Catholic faith asking questions. That is a good thing. Yet any time those of us who are Catholic and have no doubts give answer to your questions you respond as though we are stupid for believing our faith.

Guess what? You will never have ALL the answers to life’s questions. Somethings you just need to take on faith.
 
I suspect that most gay Catholics either ignore official Church teachings about homosexuality (just like lots of Catholic straight couples ignore church teachings on using birth control) or they become gay former-Catholics (I know quite a few of those). 🤷
 
From my understanding, they’re encouraged not to go into the priesthood (I’m assuming not into the religious life either), obviously the Church teaches they can’t get married or have sex, and they can’t adopt either… So I wonder, what are they supposed to do? Are they just condemned to a sexless and lonely existence until death? They are discouraged from making any kind of family??
In so far as the priesthood is concerned: "the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture.” vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

There is no doubt that for many, the finding that they do not experience sexual inclinations consistent with their bodies (ie. man to woman, and woman to man), may be devastating and may present great fears for the future. While the single (heterosexual) may also experience loneliness and the fear of not finding a partner, they may at least have the opportunity to socialise more freely, date and so on. But at the end of the day, the requirements of chastity are, nevertheless, the same.

We may ask the question: “How could this situation be different?” Should the Church reconsider the meaning of marriage and broaden it as some States seek to do? This may be welcomed by a proportion of homosexual persons, but (in addition to facing massive theological hurdles), would seem to do nothing for the sad and lonely single heterosexuals. Would it thus be appropriate to consider reviewing the teaching concerning sex outside marriage?

In connection with “families” - how are families formed other than through marriage? Now, I’m not aware of the current situation with regard to single people adopting - it may be possible though I’d question how the adoption authorities would go about allocating a child to a single person as opposed to a couple (assuming the latter are available). In an objective sense, one would think that a married couple would more likely present as the more suitable candidate - offering the child a mother and father figures, the potential to spend more time with the child, etc. [Of course, every situation is unique.]

The “right” to have a child is often raised, and often underpins the argument for IVR to be accepted as licit by the Church. If fact (IMHO), there is no particular “right” to have a child, and achieving that result (by any means) is often impossible for many. We understand that a child is a gift, not a right, and children come into this world by the acts of their parents.

Your post above, and the subsequent posts, reflect what I am sure is a genuine compassion for those that life has dealt a difficult hand. I’m sure you feel equally compassionate for persons beset with other difficulties - poverty, intellectual or physical disability, infertility, serious illness, single and lonely and so on. We should equally ask - what are these people to do?
 
I strongly dislike courage because it is my understanding that they push “reparative therapy” or whatever it’s called. This therapy is very damaging, from my understanding.
I don’t have first-hand knowledge of Courage, but their FAQs suggest they do NOT push reparative therapy and that it is not at all central to their mission.
couragerc.org/courage/faqs/
 
Your link is a long way from the Church frowning on gay/single adoption. You stated it as fact rather than your opinion.

As far as not understanding the difference, you’re just wrong. You are the one on this form with self expressed doubts about the Catholic faith asking questions. That is a good thing. Yet any time those of us who are Catholic and have no doubts give answer to your questions you respond as though we are stupid for believing our faith.

Guess what? You will never have ALL the answers to life’s questions. Somethings you just need to take on faith.
Hi Horton,

Maybe the fault is mine, but I am reading some tone into what you right. What you’ve just said here - about how I respond as though you were stupid for believing your faith. I honestly feel bad that this is how you interpret what I’ve written. I don’t think you are stupid and I certainly don’t think people of faith are stupid.

Also, I think the use of the word stupid is strong language and in this instance I find it accusatory. I do not wish to carry on a conversation with you for this reason.
 
So we don’t have a right to having a family? That’s just something society made up? Because from my angle, we’re social creatures and need families. I don’t mean passing on our genes per se, but adopting or making a life with a partner (gay or straight) are alternatives to having children biologically if one desires a family… It really seems against nature to me to tell someone they don’t have right to a family…we need physical touch and love to thrive, we see that in premature babies all the time. It’s a human need.

Any further thoughts?
You need to explain what you mean by a “right” to have a family, and perhaps also what you mean by “family”.

Almost all of us are social creatures and need friends and interactions with other people. Many of us don’t find the intimate partner you speak of - did someone deny those people their “right”? Many of us (married or not) desire children, or a big house, but that does not happen. Did someone deny us a right? Or does life sometimes not go they way we’d like it to?

Now, one can argue that one has a “right to an intimate same sex partner”, or a right to “marry anyone” or a right to “produce a child with IVR” or “with the willing assistance of a surrogate”. But this would seem to be simply an assertion that all we desire is our right.
 
When I spoke about making a family I wasn’t talking about making babies. I was talking about the human need for affection from loved ones, the desire for companionship and to not grow old alone, and so I spoke of the priesthood and religious life, adoption and/or a lifelong partnership…I even mentioned a lifelong partnership without sex. My point being that it seems that there is NO option for LGBT people other than living alone until they die. And this realization sets in at a young age when they first discover that they’re gay and Catholic, which I find particularly cruel, to tell a child he has to be alone forever. It’s like a death sentence. Because it’s being forced on them that they can’t make any kind of family. Unless I’m missing something - are you aware of what kind of family gay Catholics allowed to make? I mean it seems that even if a single gay person decides to be a foster parent - that even THAT is scandalous. It’s like they’re rejected by the religion itself. Like the other poster said, the Church is very aware that gay people are gay, but the seem to forget that gay people are people. People need families.
If you concur that a sexual relationship would be wrong, then you would likewise see the difficultly in a shared residence between two romantically attracted men (or women) - this would seem to be inviting that which we agree should not happen.

There is nothing scandalous in a single person being a foster parent. A single person who announces to the Catholic adoption agency that he is gay and is open to same sex intimate relationships ought reasonably expect difficulties (law permitting).

I for one find nothing wrong in a platonic relationship, including shared accommodation, so long as the stance the persons take - in private and in public - is in fact that of platonic friends.

You have spoken of the “injustice” that gay people endure by virtue of their attractions. But who should be held accountable for this? Undoubtedly, compassion is called for, but to call the situation an “injustice” is I think a big call.
 
I have not seen this Church family where I live… People barely talk to each other around here and I hear it’s not too different in most places. Also, in our society today people are very isolated from each other in general. And a person may choose to be single, and therefore choose to be celibate. But gays aren’t given the choice, this celibacy is forced on them. Somehow something about that just doesn’t seem just or kind…
Perhaps you are called to bring loving community to your area.
Also, there are singles who do not choose to be single. No one is saying such persons don’t have a cross to bear. But it’s a fallen, disgusting, demented world. We are called to penetrate it’s acid with loving balm. It may require heroism.
 
I strongly dislike courage because it is my understanding that they push “reparative therapy” or whatever it’s called. This therapy is very damaging, from my understanding.
This sounds like a comment from somebody who hasn’t really had much dealings with Courage or the understanding of what is and what is not reparative therapy. What Courage encourages is a personal relationship with Jesus, allowing for the places of actual wounding be healed. NOTE: This isn’t having anything to do with “praying away the gay” or what have you. This is about discipleship and strengthened in our true identity as men or women created in God’s Image. There is no pushing of reparative therapy.

Courage is a ministry approved by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not have an official statement for or against reparative therapy but encourages chastity. So Courage encourages Chastity among their members.

There are 5 Goals:
  1. To live chaste lives in accordance to the Roman Catholic Church
  2. Dedicate entire lives to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and frequent reception of the sacraments (Reconciliation and Eucharist)
  3. To foster spirit of fellowship and building of a support network
  4. the development of chaste friendships
  5. To live lives that serve as a good example to others
It’s also based upon the 12 Step Program

This is Courage. I have yet to meet somebody who has come to experience same sex attraction and who did not need for a time counseling, therapy, spiritual direction, healing of childhood experiences … for example, there’s a high rate of abuse and neglect in the stories of many people who have come to struggle with same sex attraction. There’s also a high rate of addictions among folks struggling with same sex attraction. Yes, there are people who may not share that experience but there’s nevertheless a high rate of such experiences. When you discuss therapy and counseling to the individual struggling with same sex attraction you have to ask what kind of therapy. Not all therapy and counseling provided is the destructive form of reparative therapy.
 

So we don’t have a right to having a family? That’s just something society made up? Because from my angle, we’re social creatures and need families. I don’t mean passing on our genes per se, but adopting or making a life with a partner (gay or straight) are alternatives to having children biologically if one desires a family… It really seems against nature to me to tell someone they don’t have right to a family…we need physical touch and love to thrive, we see that in premature babies all the time. It’s a human need.

Any further thoughts?
Marriage is a privilege and is between one man and one woman. Statistics show that children raised by both a Mom and Dad is the most ideal. Statistics show that children raised by same sex couples develop psychologically as they would in a single parent home regardless if they have two moms or two dads that love and care for them deeply.

Yes we’re social creatures. Yes we’re created for relationship. Yes we have needs for intimacy and touch etc etc but living a celibate life isn’t about the deprivation of our needs socially and needs for intimacy. There are ways to meeting needs for intimacy in non-sexual ways but in our highly sexualized culture many people’s concept of intimacy is always of the sexualized means. Living a celibate life won’t kill people and if one knows how to cultivate non-sexual friendships that meet some of our needs relationally then you’ll find that there’s much more to intimacy then just sex. Speaking frank here … a life with zero sex isn’t a life threatening issue. What is the issue is the development of healthy friendships that still meet our needs for intimacy and close friendships.

A person who can adjust to a celibate life will know how to direct their feelings of aloneness towards God. And then to re-direct that energy towards service to others for the building up of the Church. How do people in religious life deal with their vow of celibacy from a healthy perspective? They form healthy friendships within their religious community, they serve the Church and their community, they give their life in service. Also, if we are living a celibate life then we’re working towards cultivating not only healthy friendships of the same sex but healthy non-sexual friendships with those of the opposite sex. We find creative ways towards cultivating healthy intimate friendships and see the broader picture of intimacy.

And … I’ll add this too … if we’re deprived of human touch going for regular massage therapy is actually therapeutic in more ways then one. It’s non-sexual, it’s physical touch, it’s structured with boundaries of course. Also, getting a pet like a dog or a cat has been proven to be emotionally and psychologically therapeutic in companionship in the home. There are ways to meet our human needs and still live happy and fruitful lives.

I don’t have any children of my own to invest in so I invest in my 10 nieces and nephews and I’m thinking about getting a dog. I invest in healthy friendships with both men and women. And whenever I can invest in my community.

***There’s ALWAYS A GREATER YES *when God says NO. **
 
healing of childhood experiences … for example, there’s a high rate of abuse and neglect in the stories of many people who have come to struggle with same sex attraction. There’s also a high rate of addictions among folks struggling with same sex attraction. Yes, there are people who may not share that experience but there’s nevertheless a high rate of such experiences.
There is, however, no evidence that same-sex attractions are a result of such abuse or neglect. But such abuse is often inflicted on people that are known or suspected of having same-sex attractions by family members, class-mates, neighbors, strangers, etc. And the addictions are often a coping mechanism for these people who suffer this abuse or feel guilty as a result of their same-sex attractions. According to the American Psychiatric Association:
Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.
psychiatry.org/lgbt-sexual-orientation
 
… My point being that it seems that there is NO option for LGBT people other than living alone until they die. And this realization sets in at a young age when they first discover that they’re gay and Catholic, which I find particularly cruel, to tell a child he has to be alone forever. It’s like a death sentence…
There is considerable variety in the specifics and the timing by which one becomes aware of SSA and whether it is the dominant, minor, temporary or permanent preference. I can think of one woman who grew up, married had a number of children and subsequently divorced and now seeks to marry a woman. I know one man who experiences sexual attraction to both men and women, but is in a happy and committed marriage. Perhaps this latter example would be regarded as fortunate.

Of course no one tells a child “he has to be alone forever”. One deals with the realities, at the required rate, without catastrophising.
 
This is Courage. I have yet to meet somebody who has come to experience same sex attraction and who did not need for a time counseling, therapy, spiritual direction, healing of childhood experiences … for example, there’s a high rate of abuse and neglect in the stories of many people who have come to struggle with same sex attraction. There’s also a high rate of addictions among folks struggling with same sex attraction. Yes, there are people who may not share that experience but there’s nevertheless a high rate of such experiences. When you discuss therapy and counseling to the individual struggling with same sex attraction you have to ask what kind of therapy. Not all therapy and counseling provided is the destructive form of reparative therapy.
I tend to be very hesitant of courage. I know it works for many but I guess I’m one of the ‘lucky’ ones who doesn’t fit into its ministry. I agree it’s vital and good for all with any emotional wounds to seek therapy. My problem is it’s implied that All ssa individual have SSA because of x, y, and z (which I never fit in to though I believe many do and in Their case, therapy would be good). Then if we help heal that they’ll magically lose the ssa and gain osa (they main experience much healing but removing their ssa should not be basically guaranteed as it seems implied sometimes). Also I know it’s not their intention, but many (including those associated with Courage) sometimes seem to imply that if someone has enough faith God will lift their burden.

I fell into that trap. I prayed and prayed for change, but the ssa remained. It lead me down a dark path where I began to doubt that I had any faith or that God could even love me. To make matters worse , there is often no one to talk about this since so many Christians are caught up in the culture war mentality and if found out my struggles would probably shun (including many in my family) and view me basically as a threat to traditional values which leads to shame and self-loathing. So, you basically end up hating yourself While trying to bottle your feelings and continue on. By the grace of God I’ve remained celibate my entire life and accepted that my ssa is probably my cross to carry for this life(my manifestation of original sin) and marriage is highly unlikely for me (since I has no osa though some with ssa do and they might indeed be called for marriage). God has the ability to remove my ssa but it’s according to His Will (it just try to stay open to the possibility of that miracle and accept my ssa may be my thorn in my side for the rest of my life).

So back to the Ops original post. Gay/ssa Carholics are called to carry their crosses and live their lives trying glorify God and follow Christ’s path for them. I’m still trying to figure out Gods path for me, but it would really help if people stop treating people like me as an intellectual and theological discussion but as real men and women with a particular cross. More support for people in the single and not called for marriage or holy orders would be really great too (not just us with ssa either). Also, people’s perspectives on adoption/fostering as a single chaste Ssa man would be appreciated too (I’m trying to discern that for later in my future personally).

Sorry for the long spiel guys, but I just wanted to offer my own unique perspective as a young SSA Catholic male trying to follow Church teaching. Hopefully I didn’t distract too much for the OPs original question. God bless you guys!:signofcross:
 
I tend to be very hesitant of “Courage”…it’s implied that All ssa individual have SSA because of x, y, and z (which I never fit in to though I believe many do and in Their case, therapy would be good).
What are the particulars of “x, y and z”? How is it implied? How does this bear on their program?
 
What are the particulars of “x, y and z”? How is it implied? How does this bear on their program?
If the people at Courage have any links with Joseph Nicolosi and the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), they might imply that same-sex attraction is caused by certain kinds of family dynamics such as a distant father or a smothering mother. Nicolosi and his wife have even written a book called A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality. Nicolosi says that such a boy with SSA who has a distant father will "retreat from the challenge of identifying with his dad and the masculinity he represents…Instead of incorporating a masculine sense of self, the prehomosexual boy is doing just the opposite – rejecting his emerging maleness and thus developing a defensive position against it [and] will fall in love with what he has lost by seeking out someone who seems to possess what is missing within himself.”

I don’t think there is anything to these old theories which have mostly been discredited. They’re the same kind of silly theories that I read more than 30 years ago when a cousin of mine gave me the Rev. Tim LaHaye’s book The Unhappy Gays: What Everyone Should Know About Homosexuality. It had all those same theories in it, none of which applied to me or my parents or to lots of other gay men I know. Rev. LaHaye would do better sticking to writing fiction such as his Left Behind series.
 
In so far as the priesthood is concerned: "the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture.” vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html
Well this is at odds with experience. Whatever this text literally says, it’s clearly treated more as a “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy. Which is undoubtedly for the benefit of everyone. Of course there are plenty of gay priests. They just don’t talk about it to the bishop before ordination…
 
For one thing one does not have to accept the fact that he/she is “gay”, but that he/she is attracted to the same gender. Can someone not pursue a heterosexual relationship if he/she is honest about this with his/her partner, and fight to put SSA to the side? Especially the younger the person is, since SSA feelings are exactly that and may evolve with time and life experiences.
 
If the people at Courage have any links with Joseph Nicolosi and the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH)…
I presume you wanted to make a point regarding Nicolosi and NARTH, but why link it to Courage unless you know of an actual connection?
 
Well this is at odds with experience. Whatever this text literally says, it’s clearly treated more as a “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy. Which is undoubtedly for the benefit of everyone. Of course there are plenty of gay priests. They just don’t talk about it to the bishop before ordination…
The source document is dated 2005, thus the policy is recent.
 
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