What are gay Catholics supposed to do?

[Rau]

For one thing one does not have to accept the fact that he/she is “gay”, but that he/she is attracted to the same gender. Can someone not pursue a heterosexual relationship if he/she is honest about this with his/her partner, and fight to put SSA to the side? Especially the younger the person is, since SSA feelings are exactly that and may evolve with time and life experiences.

If one still experiences attraction to the opposite sex, then what you describe is entirely possible, and there are certainly examples of this. If one does not experience attraction to the opposite sex, then marriage is far less likely to seem like a reasonable option.

 

[Horton]

Hi Horton,

Maybe the fault is mine, but I am reading some tone into what you right. What you’ve just said here - about how I respond as though you were stupid for believing your faith. I honestly feel bad that this is how you interpret what I’ve written. I don’t think you are stupid and I certainly don’t think people of faith are stupid.

Also, I think the use of the word stupid is strong language and in this instance I find it accusatory. I do not wish to carry on a conversation with you for this reason.

How about the word ignorant? It seems to me you would rather be argumentative, even to the point of insulting people, than actually care about getting answers.

Don’t feel bad for me. I have certainty with my faith, know without a doubt the Catholic Church is the Church founded by our Lord, and life is good. No reason for anyone to feel bad for me.

 

[smichhertz]

I didn’t think there was solid church teaching that single people couldn’t adopt.
Can someone help me out here? Yes, I know it is ideal for a 2 parent home, however, I didn’t think there was a teaching about this.

Hi KendraDZ1902,

Good question! That’s a tricky one to answer. I BELIEVE there’s a document from the Vatican that flatly states children have a right to a father and a mother, but I wasn’t able to confirm that from searching.

I did find one source, however, which is an article which goes through the logic of why children have this right. It was something flatly stated by Pope Francis back in November 2014.

Here’s the link: catholicworldreport.com/Item/3524/vaticans_colloquium_on_marriage_focuses_on_universal_right_complementarity_anthropology_and_strategy.aspx

I guess the only other thing I can think to bring up is although a child’s right to a mother and father may not be technically stated, it is certainly heavily implied from Catholic moral theology. Firstly, the 4th Commandment: “Honor thy father and mother” pretty strongly implies this right. If it’s everyone’s duty to honor their father and mother, they must have one in the first place!

In conclusion, I’d say that a single person should not get adopt without first getting married. However, I would stop short of saying it’s necessarily a violation of Catholic theology to adopt if you’re a single person.

Hope that helps!

 

[kozlosap]

This sounds like a comment from somebody who hasn’t really had much dealings with Courage or the understanding of what is and what is not reparative therapy. What Courage encourages is a personal relationship with Jesus, allowing for the places of actual wounding be healed. NOTE: This isn’t having anything to do with “praying away the gay” or what have you. This is about discipleship and strengthened in our true identity as men or women created in God’s Image. There is no pushing of reparative therapy.

Courage is a ministry approved by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not have an official statement for or against reparative therapy but encourages chastity. So Courage encourages Chastity among their members.

There are 5 Goals:

1. To live chaste lives in accordance to the Roman Catholic Church
2. Dedicate entire lives to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and frequent reception of the sacraments (Reconciliation and Eucharist)
3. To foster spirit of fellowship and building of a support network
4. the development of chaste friendships
5. To live lives that serve as a good example to others

It’s also based upon the 12 Step Program

This is Courage. I have yet to meet somebody who has come to experience same sex attraction and who did not need for a time counseling, therapy, spiritual direction, healing of childhood experiences … for example, there’s a high rate of abuse and neglect in the stories of many people who have come to struggle with same sex attraction. There’s also a high rate of addictions among folks struggling with same sex attraction. Yes, there are people who may not share that experience but there’s nevertheless a high rate of such experiences. When you discuss therapy and counseling to the individual struggling with same sex attraction you have to ask what kind of therapy. Not all therapy and counseling provided is the destructive form of reparative therapy.

I understand the Courage support group protocol, but a 12 Step Program? A person is supposed to apologize to others for being born LGBTQ? I think I must have missed something. Can you imagine telling a straight person that they must make amends for being straight?

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

I tend to be very hesitant of courage. I know it works for many but I guess I’m one of the ‘lucky’ ones who doesn’t fit into its ministry. I agree it’s vital and good for all with any emotional wounds to seek therapy. My problem is it’s implied that All ssa individual have SSA because of x, y, and z (which I never fit in to though I believe many do and in Their case, therapy would be good). Then if we help heal that they’ll magically lose the ssa and gain osa (they main experience much healing but removing their ssa should not be basically guaranteed as it seems implied sometimes). Also I know it’s not their intention, but many (including those associated with Courage) sometimes seem to imply that if someone has enough faith God will lift their burden.

I fell into that trap. I prayed and prayed for change, but the ssa remained. It lead me down a dark path where I began to doubt that I had any faith or that God could even love me. To make matters worse , there is often no one to talk about this since so many Christians are caught up in the culture war mentality and if found out my struggles would probably shun (including many in my family) and view me basically as a threat to traditional values which leads to shame and self-loathing. So, you basically end up hating yourself While trying to bottle your feelings and continue on. By the grace of God I’ve remained celibate my entire life and accepted that my ssa is probably my cross to carry for this life(my manifestation of original sin) and marriage is highly unlikely for me (since I has no osa though some with ssa do and they might indeed be called for marriage). God has the ability to remove my ssa but it’s according to His Will (it just try to stay open to the possibility of that miracle and accept my ssa may be my thorn in my side for the rest of my life).

So back to the Ops original post. Gay/ssa Carholics are called to carry their crosses and live their lives trying glorify God and follow Christ’s path for them. I’m still trying to figure out Gods path for me, but it would really help if people stop treating people like me as an intellectual and theological discussion but as real men and women with a particular cross. More support for people in the single and not called for marriage or holy orders would be really great too (not just us with ssa either). Also, people’s perspectives on adoption/fostering as a single chaste Ssa man would be appreciated too (I’m trying to discern that for later in my future personally).

Sorry for the long spiel guys, but I just wanted to offer my own unique perspective as a young SSA Catholic male trying to follow Church teaching. Hopefully I didn’t distract too much for the OPs original question. God bless you guys!

Distract from the OP? Are you kidding? No! Speak up! I was the OP. I’m the one who said I don’t trust Courage. The reason I don’t is because I’ve heard stories like yours. Maybe people here who keep recommending Courage have never heard stories like yours. They need to.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

There is considerable variety in the specifics and the timing by which one becomes aware of SSA and whether it is the dominant, minor, temporary or permanent preference. I can think of one woman who grew up, married had a number of children and subsequently divorced and now seeks to marry a woman. I know one man who experiences sexual attraction to both men and women, but is in a happy and committed marriage. Perhaps this latter example would be regarded as fortunate.

Of course no one tells a child “he has to be alone forever”. One deals with the realities, at the required rate, without catastrophising.

These examples sound like we’re speaking about bisexual women. I’m not as concerned with bisexuality because clearly they’ve got options.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

@ 9009 - I’d like to respond more to you. First, I understand where you’re coming from. I will say this about Courage though, Courage never promises to anyone they’ll “go straight” But rather disciples one towards understanding their identity in Christ and encourages people towards wholeness and holiness. By wholeness, to become more and more the manor woman we’re called to be as male or female.

I know of one man, struggles with SSA and while he’s married with 4 kids and readily admits the only woman he’s attracted to is his wife. He didn’t have a horribly abusive childhood. Though what impacted him was growing up in a racially divided nation as somebody racially mixed and what impacted him was perceived truths. In other words, being sensitive his legitimate needs were not met to the extent he needed. Culture and society impacted this as well… statistically boys don’t get nurtured as much as girls do but some boys need more nurturing then what the culture may discard and that’s not necessarily abuse but in some ways unintentional neglect. Not that you should be chasing any possible roots especially if there aren’t any. Statistics also show that trauma in our mothers womb can impact our development emotionally, psychologically, and relationally. But at any rate, Courage is one stream for support. Perhaps some people can’t receive from Courage but can benefit from one on one spiritual direction.

Re: adopting as a single person…

Have you ever thought about respite care by helping foster parents on the weekend by taking in challenging kids who need 24/7 supervision because of special needs etc? As a single person I wouldn’t adopt just because it’s not fare to the child who needs the stability of a mom and dad but of course there could be extenuating circumstances, who knows.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

If you concur that a sexual relationship would be wrong, then you would likewise see the difficultly in a shared residence between two romantically attracted men (or women) - this would seem to be inviting that which we agree should not happen.

There is nothing scandalous in a single person being a foster parent. A single person who announces to the Catholic adoption agency that he is gay and is open to same sex intimate relationships ought reasonably expect difficulties (law permitting).

I for one find nothing wrong in a platonic relationship, including shared accommodation, so long as the stance the persons take - in private and in public - is in fact that of platonic friends.

You have spoken of the “injustice” that gay people endure by virtue of their attractions. But who should be held accountable for this? Undoubtedly, compassion is called for, but to call the situation an “injustice” is I think a big call.

I don’t have much time at the moment but I just want to check if I understand your thoughts, Rau.

So, you think that gay men should not become priest,

not marry or be sexually active with the same sex

If they’re bi they can marry the opposite sex

should not cohabitate with a partner they’re attracted to even if they’re celibate,

and if they’re celibate and single that it is not a problem for them to adopt.

I’m not sure what you thought of lesbians becoming nuns?

What about a celibate gay couple adopting?

Is fostering different?

Let me know. We can get into specifics later. I just want to know where you stand on the different arrangements.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

@ 9009 - I’d like to respond more to you. First, I understand where you’re coming from. I will say this about Courage though, Courage never promises to anyone they’ll “go straight” But rather disciples one towards understanding their identity in Christ and encourages people towards wholeness and holiness. By wholeness, to become more and more the manor woman we’re called to be as male or female.

I know of one man, struggles with SSA and while he’s married with 4 kids and readily admits the only woman he’s attracted to is his wife. He didn’t have a horribly abusive childhood. Though what impacted him was growing up in a racially divided nation as somebody racially mixed and what impacted him was perceived truths. In other words, being sensitive his legitimate needs were not met to the extent he needed. Culture and society impacted this as well… statistically boys don’t get nurtured as much as girls do but some boys need more nurturing then what the culture may discard and that’s not necessarily abuse but in some ways unintentional neglect. Not that you should be chasing any possible roots especially if there aren’t any. Statistics also show that trauma in our mothers womb can impact our development emotionally, psychologically, and relationally. But at any rate, Courage is one stream for support. Perhaps some people can’t receive from Courage but can benefit from one on one spiritual direction.

Re: adopting as a single person…

Have you ever thought about respite care by helping foster parents on the weekend by taking in challenging kids who need 24/7 supervision because of special needs etc? As a single person I wouldn’t adopt just because it’s not fare to the child who needs the stability of a mom and dad but of course there could be extenuating circumstances, who knows.

It is these very theories about “what made them gay” that are so troubling… This all comes from NARTH. It is not sound science. It’s very pseudoscientific and it’s why I don’t support Courage.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I didn’t think there was solid church teaching that single people couldn’t adopt.
Can someone help me out here? Yes, I know it is ideal for a 2 parent home, however, I didn’t think there was a teaching about this.

Single people can adopt. That often happens if say an aunt or uncle gains custody of nephews or nieces after the death of their parents.

My mom has a brother who is gay. He’s always been very circumspect about that part of his life. If I was, God forbid orphaned as a child, going to live with him would have been better than going to live with a non family member, or into foster care. He’s been a good, generous uncle.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Single people can adopt. That often happens if say an aunt or uncle gains custody of nephews or nieces after the death of their parents.

My mom has a brother who is gay. He’s always been very circumspect about that part of his life. If I was, God forbid orphaned as a child, going to live with him would have been better than going to live with a non family member, or into foster care. He’s been a good, generous uncle.

Oh, well that’s a perspective I’ve never considered… Thanks for sharing.

I really need to go - but I so badly want to be having this discussion!!

 

[Thorolfr]

I presume you wanted to make a point regarding Nicolosi and NARTH, but why link it to Courage unless you know of an actual connection?

According to Tanya Erzen, Straight to Jesus: Sexual and Christian Conversions in the Ex-Gay Movement (University of California Press, 2006), p. 46

Courage is a Catholic organization, with chapters throughout the United States, which was founded and is run by Father John Harvey, a Catholic priest…Father Harvey began the first Courage meeting in 1980, and the Archdiocese of New York continues to sponsor him. Initially, he organized five-day retreats in northern Virginia for priests which he called Retreat, Renewal, and Recreation, to help them address their own homosexuality, and he recalled that from 1979 to 1990 he devoted himself to working solely with laity, although priest still lead Courage groups all over the country. Father Harvey makes use of NARTH, which will refer people to a therapist and a priest, and the relationship is strong because Joseph Nicolosi, the director of NARTH, is Catholic and attends many Courage events.

At Courage’s annual conference in 2013, there was a training for professional therapists conducted by Dr. Timothy Lock, a NARTH member, and the training was promoted by NARTH on its website. Lock recommends that his clients read ex-gay publications, including books by Joseph Nicolosi and Richard A. Cohen.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Hi KendraDZ1902,

Good question! That’s a tricky one to answer. I BELIEVE there’s a document from the Vatican that flatly states children have a right to a father and a mother, but I wasn’t able to confirm that from searching.

I did find one source, however, which is an article which goes through the logic of why children have this right. It was something flatly stated by Pope Francis back in November 2014.

Here’s the link: catholicworldreport.com/Item/3524/vaticans_colloquium_on_marriage_focuses_on_universal_right_complementarity_anthropology_and_strategy.aspx

I guess the only other thing I can think to bring up is although a child’s right to a mother and father may not be technically stated, it is certainly heavily implied from Catholic moral theology. Firstly, the 4th Commandment: “Honor thy father and mother” pretty strongly implies this right. If it’s everyone’s duty to honor their father and mother, they must have one in the first place!

In conclusion, I’d say that a single person should not get adopt without first getting married. However, I would stop short of saying it’s necessarily a violation of Catholic theology to adopt if you’re a single person.

Hope that helps!

It isn’t that clear. There are infant adoptions. Then there are adoption of older children.

If God Forbid something would happen to myself and my husband, I would like my sister to care for my children. She isn’t married, but she is a practicing Catholic and has a solid good relationship with my children.

A married couple, shouldn’t get preference to adopt my children just by virtue of being married. The familal bond is more important.

 

[smichhertz]

It isn’t that clear. There are infant adoptions. Then there are adoption of older children.

If God Forbid something would happen to myself and my husband, I would like my sister to care for my children. She isn’t married, but she is a practicing Catholic and has a solid good relationship with my children.

A married couple, shouldn’t get preference to adopt my children just by virtue of being married. The familal bond is more important.

I agree, but I thought the scenario we were discussing was a celibate gay single person adopting a child. Not something triggered by a death in the family, etc.

 

[at9009]

Distract from the OP? Are you kidding? No! Speak up! I was the OP. I’m the one who said I don’t trust Courage. The reason I don’t is because I’ve heard stories like yours. Maybe people here who keep recommending Courage have never heard stories like yours. They need to.

Thanks for the encouragement. Also, I want to say that I don’t think Courage is bad (I just have a slightly different approach, I guess). I don’t necessarily like the 12-step approach but it works for many and I’m glad they exist (Also their five goals are good things to strive for). I guess like any cross or problem, there are different ways to cope with it and I just never found Courage appealing, but they do help many.

@ 9009 - I’d like to respond more to you. First, I understand where you’re coming from. I will say this about Courage though, Courage never promises to anyone they’ll “go straight” But rather disciples one towards understanding their identity in Christ and encourages people towards wholeness and holiness. By wholeness, to become more and more the manor woman we’re called to be as male or female.

---

Thanks for your responding. Like I mentioned before, I believe Courage does great good for many people, but I just don’t feel like its what I need (if that makes sense). Thank you for helping alleviate some of my concerns though. I guess I just find Courage’s closeness with NARTH (who seems to believe that my SSA is emotional wounds from my parents or something) a little disconcerting at times. I’m glad they exist and offer great support for many, but I’ve found support elsewhere that has helped me with my cross

. I know of one man, struggles with SSA and while he’s married with 4 kids and readily admits the only woman he’s attracted to is his wife

That’s great for him and his wife, and I’m trying to stay open to the possibility if that’s God’s Will for me. However, I don’t plan on trying to date unless I feel a strong pull from God towards the vocation of marriage. My fear is that if I tried to date, I would basically being pulling the woman along and not being able to truly love her the way a husband should. So I feel like it would be wrong and selfish of me to put her in that situation when she could find someone who could be with her (if that makes sense).

.
Re: adopting as a single person…

Have you ever thought about respite care by helping foster parents on the weekend by taking in challenging kids who need 24/7 supervision because of special needs etc? As a single person I wouldn’t adopt just because it’s not fare to the child who needs the stability of a mom and dad but of course there could be extenuating circumstances, who knows.

I guess my problem is I have these desires for fatherhood which I’m trying to discern if God wants me to have those desires or if their ultimately there for the wrong reasons (especially like now when it’s Father’s Day Weekend). I have a long way before I could even truly consider it (have more school and need to get established in my career anyway), but thanks for the other options (It’s something I definitely need to discern). Also just to be clear, I would never adopt an infant because I do agree they should have both a mother and a father. I was more thinking of fostering or adopting an older child that may not be considered for adoption by many (if that makes sense).

What are the particulars of “x, y and z”? How is it implied? How does this bear on their program?

Sorry for the late response, but many seem to believe that all SSA is caused by distant fathers, overbearing mothers, lack of sports skills, sexual abuse as a child, etc. Courage doesn’t necessarily agree with this (they are fairly neutral on what causes SSA), but many they’re associated with (like NARTH) push that agenda and have close ties to Courage. When you don’t fit into those boxes for your SSA, you sometimes feel like even more of an oddball. I view my SSA as my concupiscence (not sure why I have it and doubt I’ll know this side of Heaven). Some of Courage’s support resources kind of have NARTH leanings which make me hesitant, I guess.

Something I do think though is our local Churches need to do a better job of supporting those in single life (whether they’re ssa like me, divorced and can’t re-marry, or whatever). It just often feels like that the only push I ever hear is towards marriage (especially as a young guy in his early 20s). I sometimes feel like I’m in uncharted waters and flying blind trying to discern God’s path for me.

This is a cool discussion though, and hope I’m being somewhat helpful. Also, again sorry for the rambling, I tend to do that a lot. God bless you guys.

 

[Corki]

I understand the Courage support group protocol, but a 12 Step Program? A person is supposed to apologize to others for being born LGBTQ? I think I must have missed something. Can you imagine telling a straight person that they must make amends for being straight?

12 step programs include a step to make amends for those you have hurt due to your behavior. I am mostly familiar with the AA model and you don’t apologize for being an alcoholic or even for drinking. You apologize for any hurt or pain that your actions caused.

With some homosexual persons, there have been times when they acted in hurtful ways. Perhaps they rejected their parents for not supporting their behavior. Maybe they had a promiscuous period in their past. Maybe they led someone into a hurtful lifestyle. Those are the kinds of behaviors that **might be **covered in that step.

 

[Peebo]

If a gay person wants to remain Catholic then there are a limited number of options for them that would not contradict church teachings…as has been pretty much discussed here…the only other option would be to join one of the Protestant churches that are accepting of SSM etc…I’m not advocating that of course… many gay people don’t see themselves as any different than straight people…some countries and some states here in the US allow them to marry and to adopt children and have the same rights as married heterosexual couples…so when they confront the teachings of the Catholic Church then naturally some will feel offended that they are being discriminated against …but the church is not the state…all of us have to obey what she teaches…that’s part of our commitment to the church of Jesus Christ…as I stated earlier there aren’t many options if you want to remain faithful to the Catholic church…that applies to all of us…straight or gay…it must be a terrible dilemma for those caught in that situation

 

[Rau]

I understand the Courage support group protocol, but a 12 Step Program? A person is supposed to apologize to others for being born LGBTQ? I think I must have missed something. Can you imagine telling a straight person that they must make amends for being straight?

It’s not the same 12 steps as in the addiction case.

 

[Rau]

These examples sound like we’re speaking about bisexual women. I’m not as concerned with bisexuality because clearly they’ve got options.

I was speaking about the variability of sexual inclination that people experience, and the varying time frames in which they become apparent.

Everyone has options - but a person that never marries - for whatever reason - does not have a (moral) option to participate in a sexual relationship.

The Church has concluded that it cannot admit to the Priesthood persons who engage in same sex relationships or who endorse those who do, or who have a deep-seated homosexual inclination. This is the Church’s judgement on what is appropriate for the priesthood and the role of priests. The first 2 criteria are I think clear cut. The 3rd is a judgement call. I don’t have a strong view on it, but my own judgement would probably lean that way.

 

[Rau]

I don’t have much time at the moment but I just want to check if I understand your thoughts, Rau.

So, you think that gay men should not become priest,

not marry or be sexually active with the same sex

If they’re bi they can marry the opposite sex

should not cohabitate with a partner they’re attracted to even if they’re celibate,

and if they’re celibate and single that it is not a problem for them to adopt.

I’m not sure what you thought of lesbians becoming nuns?

What about a celibate gay couple adopting?

Is fostering different?

Let me know. We can get into specifics later. I just want to know where you stand on the different arrangements.

I’m really quite interested to know what you think should be done about the difficult challenges some people face. You’ve started the thread, expressed great compassion, but not given us your own thoughts on how things should be changed by Church or State. See my earlier posts where these questions were posed.