What are gay Catholics supposed to do?

[Rau]

Thanks for speaking up!

It’s interesting to hear your experience because it’s less common, or at least it seems so. Most LGBT people I’ve spoken with and read about, and most of the science I’ve seen on the matter indicates that it isn’t caused by “something”. That it just is. And, I believe that if it just is, then it can’t be a problem and is in fact normal. I also think it’s sad and unhealthy to convince people who have SSA that the way they are is “a problem” and “not normal”. I think this is the cause of much of the bullying that goes on in schools towards LGBT kids, and the reason for a higher suicide rate amongst LGBT youths.

So, I’m glad for you that you’ve made your peace with your SSA and your faith. But I don’t think that it’s a good approach to take with LGBT people at large. I honestly believe that reparative therapy has caused a lot of harm to many people.

Reparative therapy is highly risky given the cause of the condition it seeks to address is unknown. Now we can say, as the psychologist do, that the condition is a “problem” only if it causes distress to the patient or a risk to others. But objectively, it is naive to say “nothing wrong here”. Examine the body of the persons affected and reconcile that with the sexual acts to which they are attracted. It cannot be reconciled.

Noone should be condemned for their inclination. But St Paul tells us the only proper venue for sexual expression is in the marriage of a man and a woman. The Church teaches this and our reason is capable of recognizing that truth.

 

[Rau]

Not all gay people think that they are broken or that their SSA is a wound that needs to be healed. Instead, many of them see it as a small but significant part of who God created them to be and they celebrate their place as a part of God’s diverse creation. Why cling to narrow notions about sexuality developed in the Middle Ages by people like Thomas Aquinas from the thinking of ancient peoples recorded in ancient texts, both those of the Ancient Israelites and Aristotle (with his emphasis on teleology)? This just puts God and what God wants for us into a tiny little box. But God is bigger than that and God does change and our human understanding changes and evolves. We don’t have to do thing the same way that they’ve always been done and think about things the same way they’ve always been thought. As God says in Revelation, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

Our bodies have not changed much from the Middle Ages Thor. The sexual organs still operate in the same manner - which I’ve never thought of as a narrow notion. In man, in the marital act - we still see clearly how love and joy are bound up with procreative capacity.

The person with SSA is no less capable of leading a good life than the rest of us. And while they may feel distressed about their inclination, it is not cause to abandon that goal.

 

[Memaw]

Horton:
The bold part of this is simply false. I’m infertile and if I married it certainly would be a valid marriage. This is NOT a teaching of the Church.

Your right, but some Catholics like to make up their own mind as to what the Catholic Church teaches, without learning the truth. God Bless, Memaw

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Reparative therapy is highly risky given the cause of the condition it seeks to address is unknown. Now we can say, as the psychologist do, that the condition is a “problem” only if it causes distress to the patient or a risk to others. But objectively, it is naive to say “nothing wrong here”. Examine the body of the persons affected and reconcile that with the sexual acts to which they are attracted. It cannot be reconciled.

Noone should be condemned for their inclination. But St Paul tells us the only proper venue for sexual expression is in the marriage of a man and a woman. The Church teaches this and our reason is capable of recognizing that truth.

I’m really happy that you make the distinction and that you insist no one should be condemned for their orientation, and also that you recognize the damage reparative therapy can do. These are good things and it would be good if Christians in general agreed with you on these points.

I also agree that the Bible mentions homosexuality unfavorably. But ultimately I think it’s a cultural thing. Just like there are teachings about women that we’ve discarded, just how slavery was viewed favorably but no longer is, just how we thought that Genesis was literal or we believed in geocentrism until science changed things, I think there will be other things that were in the Bible or taught by the Church that will in the future be drastically different…and I think this is one of them. I think so because of the science showing that people are born this way, I think before this was shown and homosexuality was viewed as a choice or a lustful excess it made sense that it was condemned… But the mental health repercussions of repression (especially when insisted on by authorities such as churches or ones’ parents) of ones sexuality I think are something people need to seriously consider.

 

[Rau]

I’m really happy that you make the distinction and that you insist no one should be condemned for their orientation, and also that you recognize the damage reparative therapy can do. These are good things and it would be good if Christians in general agreed with you on these points.

I also agree that the Bible mentions homosexuality unfavorably. But ultimately I think it’s a cultural thing. Just like there are teachings about women that we’ve discarded, just how slavery was viewed favorably but no longer is, just how we thought that Genesis was literal or we believed in geocentrism until science changed things, I think there will be other things that were in the Bible or taught by the Church that will in the future be drastically different…and I think this is one of them. I think so because of the science showing that people are born this way, I think before this was shown and homosexuality was viewed as a choice or a lustful excess it made sense that it was condemned… But the mental health repercussions of repression (especially when insisted on by authorities such as churches or ones’ parents) of ones sexuality I think are something people need to seriously consider.

I am equally confident you are mistaken. There may well be contributing factors to SSA evident at or prior to birth - but science has nothing like a firm view that homosexuality is determined by any such factors. But more compelling still is this fact - the cause has no bearing on the morality. It may reduce culpability, eg. I would be more culpable for a decision to experiment with same sex sexual behavior than a person truly experiencing that attraction - but the immorality of the acts are unchanged.

 

[Thorolfr]

I am equally confident you are mistaken. There may well be contributing factors to SSA evident at or prior to birth - but science has nothing like a firm view that homosexuality is determined by any such factors. But more compelling still is this fact - the cause has no bearing on the morality. It may reduce culpability, eg. I would be more culpable for a decision to experiment with same sex sexual behavior than a person truly experiencing that attraction - but the immorality of the acts are unchanged.

Why do you think that our notions of what is moral cannot change? If that was true, we would still think that slavery is moral when in fact most people would now consider slavery to always be immoral.

 

[Rau]

Why do you think that our notions of what is moral cannot change? If that was true, we would still think that slavery is moral when in fact most people would now consider slavery to always be immoral.

Morality does not change with opinion because we are not ourselves the source of morality. What most people consider is not a determining factor.

 

[HDLSeanWileyTin]

ok. for those of you that are worried that the gov’t will shut down businesses that refuse to serve gay couples: i agree, i’m a libertarian so i don’t believe the gov’t should shut down places because of their belief, but just think about it like this: you as catholics are pro-life (mostly), and you wouldn’t want your taxpayer money going to someplace like that, would you? that’s what it’s like for gays who have to pay taxes and their money is going to someplace that degrades their relationships as being “immoral” when that business isn’t even religion based in any way, shape or form. a secular business isn’t supposed to combine people’s personal beliefs with their business, because if that’s the case, then you could refuse to serve a Yankees fan because you don’t like the Yankees.

 

[Rau]

ok. for those of you that are worried that the gov’t will shut down businesses that refuse to serve gay couples: i agree, i’m a libertarian so i don’t believe the gov’t should shut down places because of their belief, but just think about it like this: you as catholics are pro-life (mostly), and you wouldn’t want your taxpayer money going to someplace like that, would you? that’s what it’s like for gays who have to pay taxes and their money is going to someplace that degrades their relationships as being “immoral” when that business isn’t even religion based in any way, shape or form. a secular business isn’t supposed to combine people’s personal beliefs with their business, because if that’s the case, then you could refuse to serve a Yankees fan because you don’t like the Yankees.

To where does anybody’s taxes go that degrades the sexual relationship of 2 men and labels it immoral? Were a Government to hold the view that marriage is properly defined as man+woman, that is not to degrade man+man. It is to claim that the latter is different from the former. Whether there should be a legal framework for people in pair-wise relationships that are not marriage is another question, but one rejected by many.

To the point you make towards the end - a moral person would not feel free do conduct an immoral business simply because the business is “secular”. A moral catholic doctor should not feel free to perform abortions - their business is “secular” but that is not a shield allowing any “legal” behaviour.

However, Catholic teaching is not that one must have nothing to do with the immoral acts of others. A catholic is not instructed to take no sales assistance job because the customer might buy a condom. But in some activities - perhaps a videographer/photographer, a designer/decorator of wedding cakes - the party may feel to be unduly contributing to the act,