What are Jews' biggest arguments against Jesus being the Messiah

[JourneyOfHope]

I was thinking the same thing when I saw this post. Thousands of miracles in His name. I was a skeptic for an long time, I searched and studied for over 40 years, I finally went on a journey to Lourdes and found what I was looking for. Still the old adage is true, I paraphrase, “to those who believe no explanation is necessary, to those who don’t none is possible.”

Do you suppose that is the reason any questions regarding present day miracles are ignored and remain unanswered on jewish and muslim threads? I’m not trying to be obnoxious - I really want answers to the questions I posted!

 

[Kaninchen]

Do you suppose that is the reason any questions regarding present day miracles are ignored and remain unanswered on jewish and muslim threads? I’m not trying to be obnoxious - I really want answers to the questions I posted!

Are Catholics required to believe in these miracles?

 

[meltzerboy]

Do you suppose that is the reason any questions regarding present day miracles are ignored and remain unanswered on jewish and muslim threads? I’m not trying to be obnoxious - I really want answers to the questions I posted!

Here’s the lowdown about miracles in Judaism. Judaism does indeed believe in miracles, and certainly miracles have happened in Jewish people’s lives in the present time, some of which may have been disguised as tragedies rather than blessings. There are several heart-warming stories about such miracles.

HOWEVER, miracles are spoken about in the Torah (for example, in Deuteronomy), and, in almost every instance, Jews are cautioned not to accept miracles as signs of G-d. In several places in the New Testament, the Apostles refer to the miracles of Jesus as irrefutable evidence of His divine origin, such as when Nicodemus witnesses the miracles of Jesus and believes in Him. The problem with this testimony is that any (educated) Pharasaic Jew of the period, such as Nicodemus, would NOT have believed in Jesus based solely on the latter’s miracles. It is not a question of Jews being hard-hearted but rather of their understanding of what the Torah commands them to do and not to do. Such statements by the Apostles are in total opposition to what the Torah taught the Jews about NOT trusting miracles as evidence of the veracity of any person or religion (and miracles do appear not only in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam but in eastern religions as well). Further, the Torah tells us that G-d sometimes uses miracles as a means to test our faith. So, naturally, Jews have generally been suspicious of miracles, both of their authenticity and their significance even if true.

 

[JourneyOfHope]

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   Are Catholics required to believe in these miracles?

   Interesting question - but why do you ask?

 

[Kaninchen]

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   Interesting question - but why do you ask?

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   I was wondering why you demand that Jews and Muslims have to believe in ‘miracles’ that not even Catholics are expected to believe in.

 

[Augustine3]

In its broadest outline, it is really quite simple. The Messiah will make evident to all the nations of the world that there is One G-d and this will in time result in the moral blessings of universal peace and the brotherhood of mankind. Will there first be periods of war and anarchy: a kind of tribulation? The Hebrew Bible says there will be, but this strife will not be caused by the Messiah, although he is expected to be some form of political leader among his many other charismatic and intelligent attributes. The mechanism concerning just HOW all this will be accomplished we are not privy to by means of either the Written Law or any other portion of the Hebrew Bible or the Talmud. But this is the hope that many Jews have for what will come to pass during the Messianic Age.

Catholics possess a unique brotherhood, we consume the body and blood of Christ. The flesh of Christ is joined to our flesh, his blood flows through our veins (literally) every time we partake of the Eucharist. We share the same common flesh and blood as partakers of the Eucharist, making us one body. With all respect, even the expectation of the Jewish Messiah does not have the hope of such an intimate brotherhood.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I was wondering why you demand that Jews and Muslims have to believe in ‘miracles’ that not even Catholics are expected to believe in.

“Demand” is probably overstating. Aren’t miracles given as signs for unbelievers?

Exodus 4:1-9
4 Then Moses answered, “But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you.’” 2 The Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” He said, “A rod.” 3 And he said, “Cast it on the ground.” So he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4 But the Lord said to Moses, “Put out your hand, and take it by the tail”—so he put out his hand and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand— 5 “that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.” 6 Again, the Lord said to him, “Put your hand into your bosom.” And he put his hand into his bosom; and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous, as white as snow. 7 Then God said, “Put your hand back into your bosom.” So he put his hand back into his bosom; and when he took it out, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh. 8 “If they will not believe you,” God said, “or heed the first sign, they may believe the latter sign. 9 If they will not believe even these two signs or heed your voice, you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it upon the dry ground; and the water which you shall take from the Nile will become blood upon the dry ground.”

Of course, we know Pharaoh hardened his heart and how that turned out.

 

[georget]

Do you suppose that is the reason any questions regarding present day miracles are ignored and remain unanswered on jewish and muslim threads? I’m not trying to be obnoxious - I really want answers to the questions I posted!

No I wasn’t suggesting anything profound. Rather something simple, if a person or many persons have a tumor the size of an orange or whatever, and they pray to Jesus or one of His saints and the tumor goes away, “a miracle”, how to explain that if Jesus was a fraud or mad. Surely God wouldn’t allow so many miracles to occur in His name if Jesus wasn’t who he said He was.

 

[Augustine3]

Many religions share rituals among their members to bring them all together in a unique kind of brother/sisterhood.
Communion is the Catholic way. The Jewish religion has many ways as well, as do the others.
They all differ, but the goal of all these religious rituals is similar.

.

My point was none of the other religions believe they consume the flesh and blood of their God, that is why I said Catholicism has a uniquely intimate brotherhood. There are none other that are so intimate which is why our Jewish friends should believe Jesus satisfies their criteria that the Messiah should inaugurate a brotherhood.

 

[georget]

What did you find at Lourdes?

.

Peace

 

[Jon_S_1]

Here’s the lowdown about miracles in Judaism. Judaism does indeed believe in miracles, and certainly miracles have happened in Jewish people’s lives in the present time, some of which may have been disguised as tragedies rather than blessings. There are several heart-warming stories about such miracles.

HOWEVER, miracles are spoken about in the Torah (for example, in Deuteronomy), and, in almost every instance, Jews are cautioned not to accept miracles as signs of G-d. In several places in the New Testament, the Apostles refer to the miracles of Jesus as irrefutable evidence of His divine origin, such as when Nicodemus witnesses the miracles of Jesus and believes in Him. The problem with this testimony is that any (educated) Pharasaic Jew of the period, such as Nicodemus, would NOT have believed in Jesus based solely on the latter’s miracles. It is not a question of Jews being hard-hearted but rather of their understanding of what the Torah commands them to do and not to do. Such statements by the Apostles are in total opposition to what the Torah taught the Jews about NOT trusting miracles as evidence of the veracity of any person or religion (and miracles do appear not only in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam but in eastern religions as well). Further, the Torah tells us that G-d sometimes uses miracles as a means to test our faith. So, naturally, Jews have generally been suspicious of miracles, both of their authenticity and their significance even if true.

I believe you must be speaking truthfully, but it must be based on something other than the Old Testament?

Are you sure this is not a more modern belief?

Even so, I can understand a caution against a single reported miracle. Nicodemas saw that Jesus performed many miracles. The apostles did not understand who he was really until after he rose again. They saw tons of miracles, new he was a holy man but only after seeing that final resurrection miracle did they understand him to be God.

It seems the Old Testament is full of miracles as a sign of Gods power.

the Jewish Encyclopedia and many Biblical historians have theorized that he is identical to Nicodemus ben Gurion, mentioned in the Talmud as a wealthy and popular holy man reputed to have had miraculous powers. Christian tradition believes that Nicodemus was martyred because of his belief in Christ sometime in the 1st century AD.

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11525-nicodemus

 

[Jerurussia]

II Corinthians 3:14 speaks of God veiling the hearts of the Jews. There is no “argument” that suffices; and those Jews who, supposedly because of Moses’ Torah, refuse to accept Jesus as Messiah will be judged by Moses. That’s a two-fer: God veiling hearts in what the Church describes as "invincible ignorance; and those who, on the basis of Moses’ Torah, reject the illumination of seeing Jesus as Messiah in “willing disbelief” and who will be judged by Moses, i.e., under the Old Covenant, and that’s a tough row to hoe.

As with all souls, those who exercise “invincible ignorance” will not be judged as those Jews brainwashed into hating the Church because of propaganda suggesting Pius XII, glowingly eulogized by Golda Meir, was supposedly promoting the Holocaust. This is contradistinct from those Hebrew scholars who, seeing the “Man of Sorrows” and various prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ, still refuse Christ Who was prophesied to be “another Moses.” Looking from the outside in, it is impossible to decide objectively who is who. One may note the plethora of Jewish conversions that generally include a mystical experience, as with the Chief Rabbi of Rome under Pius XII, and Ratisbonne, to name only a couple of more publicized conversions. Thanks be to God for the prophesied conversion of the Hebrews when the “time of the Gentiles” is over, though tragically within the worst devastation the world has ever known.

Note that Gentile Christians are adopted, ingrafted Jews, as salvation is from the Jews, and adoption in the Middle East grants full sonship and inheritance rights that can never be alienated. We praise God for Christ’s opening this formal adoption with almost the last words He spoke on the Cross, declaring to John, “Son behold thy mother,” and to the Blessed Virgin Mary, “woman, behold thy son.” As Father William G. Most asked and answered, “Why was Jesus Jewish?” “Jesus was Jewish because His mother was Jewish.” One’s heritage is accounted only through the mother among the Hebrews, and this is the meaning of John’s APOCALYPSE chapter 12 predicting the persecution of the “other children” of the Woman Clothed with the Sun. Thank God for our part in the Holy Family! May we be worthy and remain faithful and true.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I believe you must be speaking truthfully, but it must be based on something other than the Old Testament?

Are you sure this is not a more modern belief?

Even so, I can understand a caution against a single reported miracle. Nicodemas saw that Jesus performed many miracles. The apostles did not understand who he was really until after he rose again. They saw tons of miracles, new he was a holy man but only after seeing that final resurrection miracle did they understand him to be God.

It seems the Old Testament is full of miracles as a sign of Gods power.

the Jewish Encyclopedia and many Biblical historians have theorized that he is identical to Nicodemus ben Gurion, mentioned in the Talmud as a wealthy and popular holy man reputed to have had miraculous powers. Christian tradition believes that Nicodemus was martyred because of his belief in Christ sometime in the 1st century AD.

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11525-nicodemus

Jon–One place in the Bible which Meltzerboy may have in mind is Deuteronomy 13 (specifically Deut. 13:1-4, 18 in the Christian verse numbering) which warns against accepting miracles as signs from God if they lead the Jewish people away from Torah observance.

A question is whether Jesus, in doing His miracles, meant to lead the Jewish people away from Torah observance; Matthew 5:17-20 would seem to say He didn’t, unless heaven and earth have passed away without my awareness. Certainly, Christianity, for a good length of time, did eventually come to forbid any keeping of Jewish observance, considering it a mortal sin to observe for any reason.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jon–One place in the Bible which Meltzerboy may have in mind is Deuteronomy 13 (specifically Deut. 13:1-4, 18 in the Christian verse numbering) which warns against accepting miracles as signs from God if they lead the Jewish people away from Torah observance.

A question is whether Jesus, in doing His miracles, meant to lead the Jewish people away from Torah observance; Matthew 5:17-20 would seem to say He didn’t, unless heaven and earth have passed away without my awareness. Certainly, Christianity, for a good length of time, did eventually come to forbid any keeping of Jewish observance, considering it a mortal sin to observe for any reason.

Perhaps, but it seems not to apply or be quite so broad. My translation says if the prophet performing miracles leads you to worship other gods.

It seems Jesus encouraged worship of the one true God, and as stated, came to work within (fulfill) the law not overcome the law.

In catholicism we see ourselves keeping the new covenant which is a form of the Old Testament law. But regardless, I see Jesus no where leading people to worship anyone but The God of Israel.

Good to hear from you by the way, it’s been a while !

 

[joe371]

If you mean the afterlife (the World to Come), that is the domain of G-d, not the Messiah. Jews believe in a heaven and hell in the form of separation from G-d, as well as a kind of purgatory in which the soul is cleansed. Is this what you are referring to?

I think I get it: For present-day Jews the messiah will be someone who restores the kingdom of the Jewish nation, culminating in the epicentre, so to speak, upon which all of the other nations will gravitate/revolve in terms of politics, religious and judicial matters. However, the purpose of the messiah, as was the case with king David, is merely another earth-bound epoch, having nothing to do with eternal matters i.e. the long-awaited Davidic king reigning over the Jewish nation on earth, with no relation to eternal matters i.e. the continued separation from God?

 

[joe371]

If you mean the afterlife (the World to Come), that is the domain of G-d, not the Messiah. Jews believe in a heaven and hell in the form of separation from G-d, as well as a kind of purgatory in which the soul is cleansed. Is this what you are referring to?

Present-day Jews (those who do not believe that Jesus is the messiah) believe that heaven exists, (perhaps some souls will have to be cleansed before entering heaven) where souls go once they pass on from this life, but it’s an eternal place without God i.e. separation from God within this eternal and heavenly abode? Forgive me if I misunderstood.

 

[joe371]

Jon–One place in the Bible which Meltzerboy may have in mind is Deuteronomy 13 (specifically Deut. 13:1-4, 18 in the Christian verse numbering) which warns against accepting miracles as signs from God if they lead the Jewish people away from Torah observance.

A question is whether Jesus, in doing His miracles, meant to lead the Jewish people away from Torah observance; Matthew 5:17-20 would seem to say He didn’t, unless heaven and earth have passed away without my awareness. Certainly, Christianity, for a good length of time, did eventually come to forbid any keeping of Jewish observance, considering it a mortal sin to observe for any reason.

I understand. I guess I would ask present-day Jews (by the way - the chosen one’s of God): In what way did Jesus’ miracles reputedly lead people away from the observances of the first five books of the Old Testament in light of Matthew 5 i.e. things within Christianity, as they relate to the Torah, that are now considered mortal sins?

That said, didn’t the prophets foresee a new covenant between God and the human race i.e. a new basis of relationship, which might include new observances? Scripture seems to suggest this. The fact that a new covenant would be made certainly has implications vis-a-vis the covenant of Sinai: the Sinai covenant was only temporary, serving a temporary purpose i.e. it was not the finished product of God’s ultimate plan and purpose for both Jews (God’s chosen people) and the rest of the world. The new covenant, unlike the one made at Sinai, is to last forever i.e. designed for eternal life. If this is true then it stands to reason that God planned to usher in a new epoch (resulting in eternal implications) in which God would establish a new covenant resulting in changes and and new observances:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: **I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. **And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[HolyCrusader007]

As I noted before, that is one of about two dozen reasons according to Judaism. World peace is one of the basic beliefs about what the Messiah is supposed to accomplish.

Hi Meltzerboy, I have a few questions for you if you dont mind, as you seem quite knowledge of your religion,

-Is there a name for this Messiah? Or is it just “The Messiah”.

-Does the Torah suggest that world peace is the way to go now, or that world peace can only be accomplished when the Messiah comes?

-Does Judaism teach that its ok to defend oneself against an attacker. Say if you own a restaurant, and a random man comes in with a weapon and starts attacking you, does your religion permit you to defend yourself?

I wanted to add, while there are differences one can also find similarities between the religions of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, the three religions of Abraham are religions of peace. IMO, Muslim, Jews, and Christians have contributed greatly to society over the years.

 

[JourneyOfHope]

I was wondering why you demand that Jews and Muslims have to believe in ‘miracles’ that not even Catholics are expected to believe in.

Sorry - had to go to bed! It was way too late !
Regarding your question/comment:
It sounds somewhat defensive, as if trying to avoid what I assume you are saying without saying it - that, NO, you have not seen God active in your faith, and perhaps do not hear Him when you pray. The reason I come to this conclusion is because you completely avoided answering the actual question by attempting to diminish the importance of the question and it’s implications. The implications of a “no” answer, is that perhaps there’s a reason God is not performing signs and wonders in the jewish and muslim faiths (if that’s true - which again, since it hasn’t been answered, I am only assuming). This isn’t a competition of “my religion is better than yours” - this is about seeking Truth - asking ourselves “what is God trying to tell the world”. If He is only making His presence known in Christianity, what does this mean? Well, is He? I actually want to know:shrug:
God bless you and your loved ones

 

[meltzerboy]

Present-day Jews (those who do not believe that Jesus is the messiah) believe that heaven exists, (perhaps some souls will have to be cleansed before entering heaven) where souls go once they pass on from this life, but it’s an eternal place without God i.e. separation from God within this eternal and heavenly abode? Forgive me if I misunderstood.

Only hell is the separation from G-d (as it is according to Catholic teaching, I believe). Heaven is NOT separation (not the Bosom of Abraham, as Catholics define it) but, on the contrary, being in the presence of G-d (the Beatific Vision according to Catholicism). Purgatory is similar to the Catholic version, which means a cleansing and atonement of the soul before entering heaven. Jews, like Catholics, also believe in an ultimate bodily resurrection of the righteous.

Yes, according to Jewish belief, the Messiah is NOT the judge of one’s eternal dwelling-place; it is G-d alone Who is the final judge.