What are Jews' biggest arguments against Jesus being the Messiah

[meltzerboy]

Hi Meltzerboy, I have a few questions for you if you dont mind, as you seem quite knowledge of your religion,

-Is there a name for this Messiah? Or is it just “The Messiah”.

-Does the Torah suggest that world peace is the way to go now, or that world peace can only be accomplished when the Messiah comes?

-Does Judaism teach that its ok to defend oneself against an attacker. Say if you own a restaurant, and a random man comes in with a weapon and starts attacking you, does your religion permit you to defend yourself?

I wanted to add, while there are differences one can also find similarities between the religions of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, the three religions of Abraham are religions of peace. IMO, Muslim, Jews, and Christians have contributed greatly to society over the years.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. As to self-defense, that is most certainly permitted, and even required, in Judaism as it is in Catholicism. We are not Quakers! (I greatly admire the Society of Friends, by the way.) AFAIK Moshiach (Mashiach) is the only name for the Messiah. The Hebrew word has no connection to the English word, Savior. It should be capitalized since the Bible also speaks of messiahs with a small “m.” One of the principal missions of the Messiah according to the Hebrew Bible and the Oral Law is achieving peace among the nations under G-d.

 

[meltzerboy]

Sorry - had to go to bed! It was way too late !
Regarding your question/comment:
It sounds somewhat defensive, as if trying to avoid what I assume you are saying without saying it - that, NO, you have not seen God active in your faith, and perhaps do not hear Him when you pray. The reason I come to this conclusion is because you completely avoided answering the actual question by attempting to diminish the importance of the question and it’s implications. The implications of a “no” answer, is that perhaps there’s a reason God is not performing signs and wonders in the jewish and muslim faiths (if that’s true - which again, since it hasn’t been answered, I am only assuming). This isn’t a competition of “my religion is better than yours” - this is about seeking Truth - asking ourselves “what is God trying to tell the world”. If He is only making His presence known in Christianity, what does this mean? Well, is He? I actually want to know:shrug:
God bless you and your loved ones

Yes, there are numerous verified reports of miracles that have occurred to Jewish people (both apparent miracles and those that are, at first, disguised), as I am sure there are verified reports of miracles that occur to Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Pagans, Deists, agnostics, and atheists. Miracles are not confined to Christians since G-d LOVES US ALL. However, as I noted in a prior post (#43), Jews have been taught by the Hebrew Bible to be cautious about the authenticity and significance of miracles.

 

[JourneyOfHope]

My apologies, Kaninchen - I obviously missed an entire page of answers to my questions while I slept.

In relation to miracles: Can anyone get me the name of a book on this or similar topic (like angel encounters) with non-Christian testimonies?

God bless y’all!

 

[meltzerboy]

My apologies, Kaninchen - I obviously missed an entire page of answers to my questions while I slept.

In relation to miracles: Can anyone get me the name of a book on this or similar topic (like angel encounters) with non-Christian testimonies?

God bless y’all!

How dare you sleep in the midst of a dialogue and debate! LOL

 

[joe371]

Only hell is the separation from G-d (as it is according to Catholic teaching, I believe). Heaven is NOT separation (not the Bosom of Abraham, as Catholics define it) but, on the contrary, being in the presence of G-d (the Beatific Vision according to Catholicism). Purgatory is similar to the Catholic version, which means a cleansing and atonement of the soul before entering heaven. Jews, like Catholics, also believe in an ultimate bodily resurrection of the righteous.

Yes, according to Jewish belief, the Messiah is NOT the judge of one’s eternal dwelling-place; it is G-d alone Who is the final judge.

That was why I did not mention hell…

Purgatory I get i.e. similar to what is taught in the CC.

Good to know i.e. present-day Jews believe that present-day Jews as well as those Jews living for the last 2000 years, all go to heaven, (in the presence of G-d) other than those who might sadly go to hell? Just 2 more questions:

The Jewish messiah, whomever that may be in the future, is irrelevant in terms of which Jews in the past went to heaven, and which Jews presently go to heaven, when they sadly pass away?

You mentioned that the present-day Jewish people also believe in a bodily resurrection of the righteous, as is the case of Christianity. I often wondered about that. Regarding those resurrected people who are found to be righteous, will they return to this planet or continue to live, for lack of a better phrase, in the heavenly Jerusalem, which exists outside of time and space?

 

[joe371]

How dare you sleep in the midst of a dialogue and debate! LOL

LOl…

 

[meltzerboy]

That was why I did not mention hell…

Purgatory I get i.e. similar to what is taught in the CC.

Good to know i.e. present-day Jews believe that present-day Jews as well as those Jews living for the last 2000 years, all go to heaven, (in the presence of G-d) other than those who might sadly go to hell? Just 2 more questions:

The Jewish messiah, whomever that may be in the future, is irrelevant in terms of which Jews in the past went to heaven, and which Jews presently go to heaven, when they sadly pass away?

You mentioned that the present-day Jewish people also believe in a bodily resurrection of the righteous, as is the case of Christianity. I often wondered about that. Regarding those resurrected people who are found to be righteous, will they return to this planet or continue to live, for lack of a better phrase, in the heavenly Jerusalem, which exists outside of time and space?

The answer to your first question is yes, the Messiah, as Jews conceive of Him, is irrelevant in the final-judgment, decision-making process of Jews from both past and present. The answer to your second question is I don’t know and I don’t think we can say for sure, but I would suppose they would live in heaven. In general, Jews are forbidden to speculate too much about the World to Come (the afterlife) since we have hardly any information about it in the Hebrew Bible and also since Judaism is primarily concerned with the here and now, the present life on Earth, and how we can make it better for everyone.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

Not sure how much insight, if any, this will provide to the current discussion, but I recently heard Roy Schoeman, a Jewish convert to Catholicism, on Catholic Answers Live, who has written a couple of books on the relationship between Judaism and Catholicism and has a website at www.salvationisfromthejews.com.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

This sounds very positive, healthy, and realistic.
Me like.

.

Believing that humanity is perfectly good and moral and not at all of bullying, mean-spiritedness and petty-selfishness let alone war-crimes, genocide and tyranny is REALISTIC!?!

No! Just No!

 

[meltzerboy]

Believing that humanity is perfectly good and moral and not at all of bullying, mean-spiritedness and petty-selfishness let alone war-crimes, genocide and tyranny is REALISTIC!?!

No! Just No!

Neither I nor DaddyGirl’s comment on my post says that “humanity is perfectly good and moral.” Far from it. But Jews do say that essentially we are born with the potential to do good rather than with, as you put it, a sinful nature. We do not think of ourselves as sinners, which suggests a sinful nature, but as imperfect people who commit sins, miss the mark, so to speak. There is a semantic and substantive difference in the language used.

 

[joe371]

Neither I nor DaddyGirl’s comment on my post says that “humanity is perfectly good and moral.” Far from it. But Jews do say that essentially we are born with the potential to do good rather than with, as you put it, a sinful nature. We do not think of ourselves as sinners, which suggests a sinful nature, but as imperfect people who commit sins, miss the mark, so to speak. There is a semantic and substantive difference in the language used.

I thought I read somewhere on this thread that within a Jewish-religious context, sin is not believed? Essentially a sin is synonymous with a wrongdoing, transgression, crime, infraction, or an immoral act etc. If one believes that people in this world, are guilty of such things then it stands to reason that one believes in sin even if you do not prefer to call it a sin - right?

From purely religious perspective, a sin is any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle. If a person wilfully or deliberately violates a doctrine/tenet of present-day Judaism then it stands to reason that they committed a sin - right?

 

[joe371]

Neither I nor DaddyGirl’s comment on my post says that “humanity is perfectly good and moral.” Far from it. But Jews do say that essentially we are born with the potential to do good rather than with, as you put it, a sinful nature. We do not think of ourselves as sinners, which suggests a sinful nature, but as imperfect people who commit sins, miss the mark, so to speak. There is a semantic and substantive difference in the language used.

It seems it boils down to a sinful nature versus imperfect people, (which would comprise every human being past, present future), who commit sins. To say sinful nature merely suggests that no one is exempt from committing sin, which is what is believed vis-a-vis present-day Judaism - right?

 

[meltzerboy]

I thought I read somewhere on this thread that within a Jewish-religious context, sin is not believed? Essentially a sin is synonymous with a wrongdoing, transgression, crime, infraction, or an immoral act etc. If one believes that people in this world, are guilty of such things then it stands to reason that one believes in sin even if you do not prefer to call it a sin - right?

From purely religious perspective, a sin is any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle. If a person wilfully or deliberately violates a doctrine/tenet of present-day Judaism then it stands to reason that they committed a sin - right?

Yes, indeed. Jews believe in the concept of sin and we even have different categories of sins, as Catholics do. It’s just that Jews do not believe we are born with a sinful nature or that we are in essence sinners. I think this difference in terminology has a profound effect on the way Christians as compared to Jews think of themselves.

 

[joe371]

Yes, indeed. Jews believe in the concept of sin and we even have different categories of sins, as Catholics do. It’s just that Jews do not believe we are born with a sinful nature or that we are in essence sinners. I think this difference in terminology has a profound effect on the way Christians as compared to Jews think of themselves.

Perhaps it is a matter of semantics. Jews believe in the concept of sin, with various categories of sins, as Catholics do. However, Jews do not believe that a person is born with a sinful nature or that we are in essence sinners. OK. That said, Is it fair to suggest, from that particular perspective, (since a person is not born with a sinful nature, i.e. a person is not, in essence, a sinner) that a person from birth to death could manage to never sin?

 

[meltzerboy]

Perhaps it is a matter of semantics. Jews believe in the concept of sin, with various categories of sins, as Catholics do. However, Jews do not believe that a person is born with a sinful nature or that we are in essence sinners. OK. That said, Is it fair to suggest, from that particular perspective, (since a person is not born with a sinful nature, i.e. a person is not, in essence, a sinner) that a person from birth to death could manage to never sin?

I suppose it is theoretically conceivable. However, it is most unlikely since we are, after all, HUMAN, not divine. And, according to Jewish teaching, we have a selfish, aggressive inclination as well as a good inclination. As I explained before, the selfish inclination is NECESSARY for survival but it may also be abused and that’s when we commit sin.

 

[joe371]

I suppose it is theoretically conceivable. However, it is most unlikely since we are, after all, HUMAN, not divine. And, according to Jewish teaching, we have a selfish, aggressive inclination as well as a good inclination. As I explained before, the selfish inclination is NECESSARY for survival but it may also be abused and that’s when we commit sin.

Well, if it’s theoretically conceivable that a person, from birth to death, could manage to live a sin-free life then yes, I certainly understand why present-day Judaism does not believe in a sinful nature. For example, naturally speaking, every person, once born into this world, is predisposed to age and eventually die; it’s unavoidable. However, if one could manage to never sin, from birth to death, (unlike ageing) then that would eliminate the predisposition. I get it, at least I think.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

We can’t be so different from Adam and Eve since they also disobeyed G-d. Judaism believes that our nature is basically good even after what Christians call the fall from grace, because, after all, we were created in the very image of G-d, which I know you too believe. G-d loved them even as he through Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. Indeed, this was the beginning, not the end, of their truly human sojourn. However, since we were also given free will, the same as Adam and Eve, we are human and imperfect and free to choose to disobey G-d. IOW, we have both a good inclination and a selfish, aggressive inclination. I use the latter term instead of evil or sinful because Judaism believes that our aggression and selfishness are necessary for our survival. When we abuse this aggressive and selfish inclination, however, it is then that we miss the mark and commit wrongdoing. But not to fear since we have the means to atone for our sins and G-d is a merciful G-d.

Why? Why would God put us in a world where aggression and selfishness or whatever term you want to use for sin is necessary for survival, where things like Might Makes Right and Social-Darwinism seem plausibly ideal for human society from a Atheistic Materialist point of view? Especially considering the existence of paradises like Eden and the Messianic Kingdom (Assuming we are free from all that in the Messianic age if not, well that raises a whole new load of questions, are we gonna get zapped by lighting if we commit sin in that age?) Even things like righteous anger are only necessary because of the existence of evil. The only logical reason why God would put us in such a world is because we ourselves have a nature that matches this world.

 

[meltzerboy]

Why? Why would God put us in a world where aggression and selfishness or whatever term you want to use for sin is necessary for survival, where things like Might Makes Right and Social-Darwinism seem plausibly ideal for human society from a Atheistic Materialist point of view? Especially considering the existence of paradises like Eden and the Messianic Kingdom (Assuming we are free from all that in the Messianic age if not, well that raises a whole new load of questions, are we gonna get zapped by lighting if we commit sin in that age?) Even things like righteous anger are only necessary because of the existence of evil. The only logical reason why God would put us in such a world is because we ourselves have a nature that matches this world.

Perhaps I should have more clearly defined what Judaism means when it maintains that we have a selfish-aggressive inclination as well as a good inclination. Selfishness and aggression are meant in the sense of maintaining one’s life, that is, surviving by means of activities such as eating, sleeping, working, competing, cleaning, playing, and so on. When you scurry to the supermarket to buy food, when you raise your hand in class, when you decide to take a shower and get dressed, you are being selfish or, let us say, self-focused and aggressive in making the decision to survive and thrive. What you are describing is the misuse or abuse of our innate selfishness and aggression, and that kind of behavior is indeed sinful.

 

[joe371]

Perhaps I should have more clearly defined what Judaism means when it maintains that we have a selfish-aggressive inclination as well as a good inclination. Selfishness and aggression are meant in the sense of maintaining one’s life, that is, surviving by means of activities such as eating, sleeping, working, competing, cleaning, playing, and so on. When you scurry to the supermarket to buy food, when you raise your hand in class, when you decide to take a shower and get dressed, you are being selfish or, let us say, self-focused and aggressive in making the decision to survive and thrive. What you are describing is the misuse or abuse of our innate selfishness and aggression, and that kind of behavior is indeed sinful.

In my humble opinion, self-focused versus selfishness, seems more appropriate, at least in terms of the definition i.e. "surviving by means of activities such as eating, sleeping, working, competing, cleaning, playing, and so on…Those really are not selfish acts.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Perhaps I should have more clearly defined what Judaism means when it maintains that we have a selfish-aggressive inclination as well as a good inclination. Selfishness and aggression are meant in the sense of maintaining one’s life, that is, surviving by means of activities such as eating, sleeping, working, competing, cleaning, playing, and so on. When you scurry to the supermarket to buy food, when you raise your hand in class, when you decide to take a shower and get dressed, you are being selfish or, let us say, self-focused and aggressive in making the decision to survive and thrive. What you are describing is the misuse or abuse of our innate selfishness and aggression, and that kind of behavior is indeed sinful.

Would you say everyone is capable and in fact misuses this selfishness?

I mean my 2 year old can act pretty selfishly and aggressively when someone takes her toys.

This is what sin nature is. It is a propensity to sin. An inclination to sin.

Adam and Eve were not created this way. They were created with choice but not an inclination to sin.

This is what we call original sin or sin nature.

Your posts seem to describe the same thing but you seem to want to call it differently.