What are Protestant concerns with the sacrament of confession?

[Mommyof02green]

I think our frustration is very much the same. I’m sorry too that in defending myself it ignored your explaination, you are correct in how it snowballed. I hope you great day too. When I said I hoped it was all a misunderstanding because of the internet, I meant it. I’m glad we all just misunderstood one another, because otherwise we’d all be disagreeing a lot more than we are!

I know you did! That’s why in post # 85 I shared how I felt that the 'Internet" is a hard place to communicate.

This is slightly off topic, but my husband and I went to a marriage retreat, almost a year ago. Since the retreat we write “dialogue” letters to each other. We got told on the retreat to read the letters twice, before responding. Once for the head and Once for the heart. I, personally, try to read things twice on the forums before responding. Sometimes when you do re-read it, you see something that you didn’t see before Just sharing!

I CAN confess directly to God, To my Pastor, or to another Christian.

Of course you can! However the question is: Is that what God wants you to do??

 

[Syele]

Of course you can! However the question is: Is that what God wants you to do??

1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Obvously by the faith I have, God does want me to confess to him and to others. By yours, you believe God wants you to confess in a more restricted way but also to Him and to Others.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Obvously by the faith I have, God does want me to confess to him and to others. By yours, you believe God wants you to confess in a more restricted way but also to Him and to Others.

I don’t understand what you mean by a more “restricted” way???

 

[Syele]

I don’t understand what you mean by a more “restricted” way???

I mean having a Priest required is more restricted than having confession to a priest optional.

 

[MariaG]

I never thought Catholics only go to confession to have a priest tell them to get back in the habit of God. I didn’t mean to imply that I did. (I’m going to chalk it up to the slew of misunderstandings in this thread. ) I saw a pattern of people trying to explain and I felt very sad suddenly that seemed to show lack of Passion for what confession is really about.

Oh good. Let’s leave it as the previous miscommunictions

As for clergy… at churches I have attended have always allowed non-clergy to do baptisms and even (more rarely) marriages. Really though I don’t have any intense desire to Baptize other people and am perfectly happy allowing my Pastor to do it instead. I think that is the attitude of other chuch members as well most of time. I do have a friend that was married in the church by her father. And I know of many people Baptized by non-clergy. The priesthood of all believers concept allows this. Confession is not different than marriage and Baptism in this area. I CAN confess directly to God, To my Pastor, or to another Christian. Protestants are most likely to look at the list and choose to confess to God first. They generally trust their pastor most so they’d go to him as a second Choice to God

Interesting. I cannot say for certain just because I never witnessed such things doesn’t mean they did not happen, but it appears to me that this is a rather unique occurrence since I never even heard of people thinking about anyone but thier pastor marrying or baptizing.

But I will say that I am glad you are in churches that are consistent about their interpretation of Scripture concerning marriage, baptism and confession. The only problem I see with the view is that it is not seen as necessary to confess our sins to one another, pastor or fellow Christians since scripture tells us to confess to one another.

Can and should one confess our sins straight to God? Always, but they should be doing so in front of confessor as scripture tells us to.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Mommyof02green]

I mean having a Priest required is more restricted than having confession to a priest optional.

Well the priest is ONLY required for what we Catholic consider to be “mortal” sins. Second, even in the presence of the priest we are still confess to God. We just do it through the priest.
biblechristiansociety.com:

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest…it is God’s power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.

Every day “venial” sins are still confessed to God. However, those can be done in the private of our bedroom, car, shower, park etc. Anywhere we want and we don’t need a priest.

How do we determine if what we have done is a “venial” sin or a “mortal” sin??? We do that by examining our conscience! Honestly we should be examining our conscience every day!

Now after examining our conscience and confessing to God, we may need to confess to others that we were wrong. We may need to tell them we made a mistake and that we are sorry.

 

[Syele]

Well the priest is ONLY required for what we Catholic consider to be “mortal” sins. Second, even in the presence of the priest we are still confess to God. We just do it through the priest.

By *protestant beliefs *I’d Say the only “mortal sin” Is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, something that people who commit it generally don’t care to confess it at all. (Some protestants believe a Christian can’t do it anyhow.) I know youare still confessing to God.

 

[jonfan]

By *protestant beliefs *I’d Say the only “mortal sin” Is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, something that people who commit it generally don’t care to confess it at all. (Some protestants believe a Christian can’t do it anyhow.) I know youare still confessing to God.

So the Guy who shot all the those Amish kids…Would this act not be considered a mortal sin?

Thanks and God bless,
Jonfan

 

[Mommyof02green]

By *protestant beliefs *I’d Say the only “mortal sin” Is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, something that people who commit it generally don’t care to confess it at all. (Some protestants believe a Christian can’t do it anyhow.) I know youare still confessing to God.

What is adultery??
What is stealing??
What is murder???
What is aboration???
What is taking the Lord’s name in vain???
What is envy???
What is lust???

I’ve know Christians that have done these things…

 

[jmcrae]

1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Obvously by the faith I have, God does want me to confess to him and to others. By yours, you believe God wants you to confess in a more restricted way but also to Him and to Others.

Why would there be two different sets of rules - one set of rules for you, and one for us?

Didn’t Jesus specifically tell the Apostles to “forgive and retain” our sins? (John 20:23) How can they know which ones to retain and which ones to forgive, if we don’t make our confession to them - or, in our case, to their lawful successors?

 

[Syele]

What is adultery??
What is stealing??
What is murder???
What is aboration???
What is taking the Lord’s name in vain???
What is envy???
What is lust???

I’ve know Christians that have done these things…

They are sins. Protests don’t believe in venial/mortal sins. Sin is sin. It’s all very bad. I’m not saying We dont’ commit those sins, I’m saying they are sins and are treated the same as other sins.

 

[Mommyof02green]

They are sins. Protests don’t believe in venial/mortal sins. Sin is sin. It’s all very bad. I’m not saying We dont’ commit those sins, I’m saying they are sins and are treated the same as other sins.

Fair enough!

I have story for you:

2 brothers decided that they are each going to “steal” $20. Brother 1 “steals” the $20 from his mothers wallet. Brother 2 “steals” the $20 from some total strangers wallet.

Is what Brother 1 did worst then Brother 2?
Is what Brother 2 did worst then Brother 1?
Or is what they did the same?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Why would there be two different sets of rules - one set of rules for you, and one for us?

Didn’t Jesus specifically tell the Apostles to “forgive and retain” our sins? (John 20:23) How can they know which ones to retain and which ones to forgive, if we don’t make our confession to them - or, in our case, to their lawful successors?

I was going to ask the similar question using Mathew 16:17-19

Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

From Syele: By protestant beliefs I’d Say the only “mortal sin” Is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, something that people who commit it generally don’t care to confess it at all. (Some protestants believe a Christian can’t do it anyhow.) I know youare still confessing to God.

Do you really believe that this is the only sin for which you can be condemned to Hell? I guess that removes the need to argue anymore about the 10 commandments being in the public square. It is much ado about nothing.

 

[Syele]

Fair enough!

I have story for you:

2 brothers decided that they are each going to “steal” $20. Brother 1 “steals” the $20 from his mothers wallet. Brother 2 “steals” the $20 from some total strangers wallet.

Is what Brother 1 did worst then Brother 2?
Is what Brother 2 did worst then Brother 1?
Or is what they did the same?

Brother 1 sinned twice. Stealing and Dishonoring his mother. He must repent twice.
Brother 2 sinned once. He must repent once.

Both brothers should also make restitution (pay the money back) and apoligize for what they have done Both to who they stole from and to God. they should also willingly accept any punishment that is given them from the person they stole from. Brother 2 may have to face the police and criminal charges if the stranger presses charges, Brother one must face his mother, depending on thse mother, that could be worse then police. At any rate he will ahve to live with a loss of trust from his mother.

Avoiding these things would be additional sins.

 

[Pug]

That is my point though. Every Protestant I know (which is not to say every Protestant) gets married by a minister, and has their child baptised by one. Take Priest out of it. To my knowledge, they (the couple) don’t marry themselves without a minister. Even in the case of a “friend with a valid license” doing the ceremony, there is always someone else. Why? Just go straight to God, correct? Why should we the couple need to go through someone else?

Ah, your point is that in Protestant theology, it is required that the minister be there or officiate for valid baptism and marriage? I honestly didn’t think that was universally true, but maybe I’m wrong. I would be surprised if there weren’t Anglicans out there who would baptise their own child in danger of death even if there were no vicar about, for example.

Also, with many non-Catholics, baptism itself has no saving power. Instead they view it as a public declaration they are making, and they often profess something out loud with it. It might be required to do for them to join a church. So it would have representatives of the community they are joining as witnesses. A private/solo baptism would defeat the whole purpose of it being public, I’d imagine. But that is not an issue of interposing a person inbetween God and man. The minister at the baptism is not being a mediator. The minister is there to be the community they are being public in front of or joining. Disclaimer: I’m going on what I’ve gleaned from listening to non-Catholics only, and they are quite a varied group as well.

But those folks in my last paragraph would object to Catholic confession because it does involve interposing a person between the sinner and God in a matter that for them does not involve the Christian community. With sin, Jesus is where it is at (for them). Marriage and baptism aren’t about sin and salvation for them. They are both community things. A minister seems appropriate for something like that, especially if there is a worship service included. That’s partly what ministers are for, leading worship services. They wouldn’t see individual confession as a worship service, I’d imagine.

It makes some sense to me (though I disagree strongly).

 

[Orionthehunter]

Brother 1 sinned twice. Stealing and Dishonoring his mother. He must repent twice.
Brother 2 sinned once. He must repent once.

Both brothers should also make restitution (pay the money back) and apoligize for what they have done Both to who they stole from and to God. they should also willingly accept any punishment that is given them from the person they stole from. Brother 2 may have to face the police and criminal charges if the stranger presses charges, Brother one must face his mother, depending on thse mother, that could be worse then police. At any rate he will ahve to live with a loss of trust from his mother.

Avoiding these things would be additional sins.

Failure to repent means what? They go to Hell? Or since they are OSAS saved Christian boys, they get to enjoy the beer they bought w/ the money?

 

[Syele]

Do you really believe that this is the only sin for which you can be condemned to Hell? I guess that removes the need to argue anymore about the 10 commandments being in the public square. It is much ado about nothing.

I believe this is the only sin for which someone who is already a Christian can be condemned to Hell. Being a Christian implies you have already done other things to be Saved in the first place. (I think that topic will stary a bit far from being on topic here though.)

 

[Mommyof02green]

Brother 1 sinned twice. Stealing and Dishonoring his mother. He must repent twice.
Brother 2 sinned once. He must repent once.

Both brothers should also make restitution (pay the money back) and apoligize for what they have done Both to who they stole from and to God. they should also willingly accept any punishment that is given them from the person they stole from. Brother 2 may have to face the police and criminal charges if the stranger presses charges, Brother one must face his mother, depending on thse mother, that could be worse then police. At any rate he will ahve to live with a loss of trust from his mother.

Avoiding these things would be additional sins.

Right, what brother 1 did is “worst” then what brother 2 did. They both did the same “act” they both only took $20. However what brother 1 did was worst then what brother 2 did. You just said that it didn’t add up, it wasn’t the same, even though the “act” was the same.

The circumstance around the act changed the sin it made one “mortal” (brother 1) and it made one “venial” (brother 2).

 

[Syele]

Failure to repent means what? They go to Hell? Or since they are OSAS saved Christian boys, they get to enjoy the beer they bought w/ the money?

I am not OSAS. Each sin seperates man farther from God. the farther from God you get the less you want to live for God and the harder it is to avoid sin (See Mommyof02green I typed it better now!). If this cycle is not stopped by repentance, it will snowball into a pattern where people do not care anymore. It will lead to a Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and therefore hell.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I am not OSAS. Each sin seperates man farther from God. the farther from God you get the less you want to live for God and the harder it is to avoid sin (See Mommyof02green I typed it better now!). If this cycle is not stopped by repentance, it will snowball into a pattern where people do not care anymore. It will lead to a Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and therefore hell.

This is quite similar to the Catholic Teaching regarding venial sins except it leads to a wider definition of mortal sin. Whoever said that getting to heaven was the heavy burden or had to pass through a narrow gate is crazy. This seems like a cakewalk compared to my understanding of the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. I have never felt any problem staying away from Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.