What are regeneration and justification?

[De_Maria]

I think that’s essentially what the quote says. We cannot intentionallu persevere in sin and expect to retain faith.

Ok.

Well, that’s fine for you to say, but how about being specific regarding the quote I provided. How is that a “protestant error”?

That looks fine. But I don’t recommend the book of Concord to any Catholic. Or Protestant for that matter.

If this is correct, why all the stuff above?

Because I want to forewarn any Catholics that the book of Concord contains Protestant errors mixed with some doctrines which agree with Catholic Teaching.

Here’s what mack said:

What I meant was that I don’t believe in OSAS, or perseverence of the saints.

Necessary in what way? As a response to grace, the New Obedience, borne of joyful willingness, like that of a child, or borne of an effort, out of fear, to add to Christ’s saving work?

*What then? Are we Jewsa any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;*

Again, I think the quote for the Formula of Concord says exactly this: good works won’t save us, but they are required of us.

Jon

Perhaps, but if you pretend that the Formula of Concord has the whole doctrine of Justification correct, you are wrong. They preach justification by faith alone. As I read it, the Formula puts it in this order.

Faith, justification, good works.

Whereas, the Catholic doctrine for justification in adults is faith, works and then justification

Justification is not the result of faith and works. Righeousness or holiness, Sanctification is the result. God saves the holy. God saves the righteous. God saves those who do good works. God justifies those who do good works.

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[JonNC]

Ok.

That looks fine. But I don’t recommend the book of Concord to any Catholic. Or Protestant for that matter.

Because I want to forewarn any Catholics that the book of Concord contains Protestant errors mixed with some doctrines which agree with Catholic Teaching.

Perhaps, but if you pretend that the Formula of Concord has the whole doctrine of Justification correct, you are wrong. They preach justification by faith alone. As I read it, the Formula puts it in this order.

Faith, justification, good works.

Whereas, the Catholic doctrine for justification in adults is faith, works and then justification
Justification is not the result of faith and works. Righeousness or holiness, Sanctification is the result. God saves the holy. God saves the righteous. God saves those who do good works. God justifies those who do good works.

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Maybe that’s what Catholics believe, and I have no reason to doubt you, or question you. I will just leave you with this quote for the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess:** By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works**.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

Jon

 

[mackbrislawn]

They become righteous in the sight of God (Rom 2:13).

Yes
Revelation 22:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

What if he doesn’t do them?

Catholics can answer these quiestions, but OSAS believers don’t seem to be able to.

 

[mackbrislawn]

JonNC;10318652

Doesn’t scripture say we are rewarded in Heaven for good works?

Does this mean we will be rewarded IN heaven or BY heaven? If in heaven, does it mean we will receive more, extra, rewards after we get to heaven?

Hopefully someone who believes this will respond.

Understood. Responses?

 

[JonNC]

Does this mean we will be rewarded IN heaven or BY heaven? If in heaven, does it mean we will receive more, extra, rewards after we get to heaven?

There is a long, but worthwhole description of the Lutheran view of this in the Lutheran /Catholic joint statement, The Hope of Eternal Life. I’m linking it here, just start at about paragraph 102.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

 

[De_Maria]

Maybe that’s what Catholics believe, and I have no reason to doubt you, or question you. I will just leave you with this quote for the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

Jon

Has the Joint Declaration been officially approved by the Catholic Church?

 

[JonNC]

Has the Joint Declaration been officially approved by the Catholic Church?

So far as I know. They did, in fact, publish a clarifying document, as well.

Jon

 

[De_Maria]

So far as I know. They did, in fact, publish a clarifying document, as well.

Jon

Jon, you quoted the Joint Commission:
**Quote:
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life. **

The Catholic Church teaches that mankind is called to good works from the time they are conceived. Everyone is called to good works, before and after justification.

Do these paragraphs deny that men were created by God unto good works?

Men are not justified who have not FIRST repented and done works meet for repentance. These works are keeping the Ten Commandments.

If this is not recognized in that verse, then the Lutherans are misunderstanding their document. I don’t see that point addressed therein.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[JonNC]

Jon, you quoted the Joint Commission:
**Quote:
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life. **

The Catholic Church teaches that mankind is called to good works from the time they are conceived. Everyone is called to good works, before and after justification.

Do these paragraphs deny that men were created by God unto good works?

Men are not justified who have not FIRST repented and done works meet for repentance. These works are keeping the Ten Commandments.

If this is not recognized in that verse, then the Lutherans are misunderstanding their document. I don’t see that point addressed therein.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Clearly not. we recognize that all men are called to good works. The confessions speak to this in the Formula of Concord:

We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

Jon

 

[De_Maria]

Clearly not. we recognize that all men are called to good works. The confessions speak to this in the Formula of Concord:

Jon

Then I see no difference between that and the Catholic doctrine.

Good talking to you again.

 

[Ignatius]

I hear these terms used a lot by protestants, and I have a vague understanding of them,

That is because they are, in fact, quite vague and different denominations, and even different pastors within the denominations ahve vastly differing understandings of them. Don’t look for any real consistency in Protestant theology; it’s just not there.

 

[JonNC]

That is because they are, in fact, quite vague and different denominations, and even different pastors within the denominations ahve vastly differing understandings of them. Don’t look for any real consistency in Protestant theology; it’s just not there.

Why would one exepect there to be, since protestantism is not a communion, or even a fellowship? And within some later groups, there is no well- elaborated doctrinal statements or confessions. However, that is not the case for all western non-Catholic communions.

Jon