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Sy_Noe
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Sy Noe;12140597:
The above illustrates another reason why some people may be attracted to Protestants. Good day to you PRMerger. If you are an American enjoy the fireworks.
What are some of the main reasons that people are attracted to the Protestant faith?
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PRmerger
Guest
PRmerger;12140629:
QED.
Exhibit # 789779
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Exhibit # whatever on how some I think just like to argue here over even the most minute things maybe just for the sake of arguing?
I not only started I finished.
Just FYI I provide this.
"A paragraph is defined as a group of sentences or a single sentence that forms a unit. Length and appearance do not determine whether a section in a paper is a paragraph. For instance, in some styles of writing, particularly journalistic styles, a paragraph can be just one sentence long. "
writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/paragraphs/
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PRmerger
Guest
Look, Sy.
If that one sentence constitutes your understanding of what the Church teaches, then it’s no wonder you disagree with it.
If you understand it better, I don’t know why it’s taken me over 4 times to challenge you to offer your understanding.
Why can’t you write one paragraph? Why has it been like pulling teeth to get you to articulate the Church’s teaching?
I have challenged you over and over and over again.
It would take you 2 minutes to write a thoughtful response.
Investigate why the Church professes this!
It’s not as if she just wants, as I have heard some uncatechized ex-Catholics astonishingly argue, there to be lots and lots of baby Catholics around.
One would think that you would know that the Church’s rejection of birth control is a little more sublime than that.
But if you don’t know what she teaches, and why she teaches it, and where it comes from, then it’s no wonder you reject it.
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PRmerger
Guest
I think a parallel is in order here.
Let’s say I keep bragging about how I can do the splits. And I keep bristling when someone says, “No, you really can’t do the splits.”
So someone says, “Let me see!”
And I ignore.
And she says, “Let me see, please!”
And then I say, “I’m leaving this discussion since you clearly don’t believe me”.
And then later I come back and say, again, “I can do the splits!”
And someone says, “I’d love to see that!”
And I ignore.
And then I get mad when someone says, “There are people here who keep claiming they can do the splits but won’t actually show us that they can.”
And so someone says, “Show us your splits!”
And then I say, “It’s because people don’t believe me that I’m not going to show you.”
And someone says, “Please show us your splits!”
And then I do this:
http://www.wholeliving.com/sites/fi...body_and_soul/2008_wl/bd_1207_touchtoes_l.jpg
And then someone says, “Ummm…that’s not quite it.”
Do you think the “someone” is wrong?
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sailor28
Guest
For me personally, the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of my faith. However, one can not understand the Eucharist if they do not encounter and understand who Jesus Christ is.
In my experience, which is small and limited, people come to know Jesus by other people who witness to the love and character of God. This is what evangelicals do well. Telling people they are poorly catechized is not going to bring them to this understanding. Besides, people in the 40’s and 50’s were not well catechized. Sure they went to Mass and did all the rules but their understanding of God was often rigid and fearful. At least in my family, I don’t claim to speak for everyone. But I will say that the faith formation of generations before me was lacking. Faith is a grace. Individual spiritual journeys vary greatly.
If we want to truly engage the non Catholics we need to be transformed by the Eucharist. If we engage them by telling them “their understanding is impoverished” I don’t think we are going to make progress. Besides, the Catholic Church has an impoverished understanding in many areas itself. Recognizing this, the Pope sent 30 European Bishops to visit Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church. Noted in this interview between Rick Warren and Raymond Arroyo. The talk about the visit is at 19:38.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dVCY8pW-ACs
The work of Church of the Nativity in Timonium Maryland is brilliant as documented in the book, “Rebuilt”. (I am not an orthodox Catholic. The parish is.)
Catholics are impoverished in music. Terribly so. As for performance, when I go to the cathedral I witness a very well scripted performance. The liturgy has become a God. The choir, I suppose, is beautiful but they are performing to and not many can sing with their grandness. I want to worship God in many ways when I go to church, song being one of them. I should not be ridiculed for this.
As for the other questions about the concerns I wrote, I am not interested in a discussion about it. Based on previous experience it does not bear fruit. This thread is about reasons why people are drawn to the protestant faith and my intent was to answer the question. Not have to spend time explaining my answers. Again, 80% of our youth leave the church by 30. The next generation is not going to be there. There is a group in the church that puts a choke hold on the faith and keeps engaging in the same way. Something has to change. Stop and listen and pray and most of all spread the gospel by letting God transform you.
In my experience, which is small and limited, people come to know Jesus by other people who witness to the love and character of God. This is what evangelicals do well. Telling people they are poorly catechized is not going to bring them to this understanding. Besides, people in the 40’s and 50’s were not well catechized. Sure they went to Mass and did all the rules but their understanding of God was often rigid and fearful. At least in my family, I don’t claim to speak for everyone. But I will say that the faith formation of generations before me was lacking. Faith is a grace. Individual spiritual journeys vary greatly.
If we want to truly engage the non Catholics we need to be transformed by the Eucharist. If we engage them by telling them “their understanding is impoverished” I don’t think we are going to make progress. Besides, the Catholic Church has an impoverished understanding in many areas itself. Recognizing this, the Pope sent 30 European Bishops to visit Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church. Noted in this interview between Rick Warren and Raymond Arroyo. The talk about the visit is at 19:38.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dVCY8pW-ACs
The work of Church of the Nativity in Timonium Maryland is brilliant as documented in the book, “Rebuilt”. (I am not an orthodox Catholic. The parish is.)
Catholics are impoverished in music. Terribly so. As for performance, when I go to the cathedral I witness a very well scripted performance. The liturgy has become a God. The choir, I suppose, is beautiful but they are performing to and not many can sing with their grandness. I want to worship God in many ways when I go to church, song being one of them. I should not be ridiculed for this.
As for the other questions about the concerns I wrote, I am not interested in a discussion about it. Based on previous experience it does not bear fruit. This thread is about reasons why people are drawn to the protestant faith and my intent was to answer the question. Not have to spend time explaining my answers. Again, 80% of our youth leave the church by 30. The next generation is not going to be there. There is a group in the church that puts a choke hold on the faith and keeps engaging in the same way. Something has to change. Stop and listen and pray and most of all spread the gospel by letting God transform you.
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PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, no one is ridiculing you for wanting to worship God in many ways.
You are not alone in wanting to worship God in many ways, and you are not the only Catholic who is moved by music.
However, to worship God in the Divine Liturgy is the pinnacle of worship. It is as head and shoulders above any other form of inspiring worship as the Bible is head and shoulders over any other inspiring piece of literature. Or as the Eucharist is head and shoulders over a really yummy piece of bread.
So, to hear a Catholic say he is going to a Protestant church down the street because of the really neat music is as disappointing as hearing a Catholic say that he is going to the Protestant church down the street because their bread is really, really fluffy and tasty.
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sailor28
Guest
This will be the last time I will respond to you. You are quick to make assumptions and you don’t listen well. I don’t have the patience for that. I said I attended 2 churches every weekend when I was in college. Here I am as an adult back on the same path. One because I need the Eucharist and the other because I want to worship God in song and have community. Please listen and pray before you continue with your agenda. Really take the time to hear people. If you want to lead them to Jesus you need to listen to them. Not let them know how right you are.
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PRmerger
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It really sounds like you are trying to let me know how right you are.
I don’t understand why people reserve the right for themselves what they object to in others.
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PRmerger
Guest
Incidentally, I have never addressed your desire to go to 2 different churches.
My post were not directed at your personal practices.
I was simply making general comments about Catholics who don’t go to Mass because the Protestant church down the street has really neat music.
However, if you are permitting your children to go to the Protestant church down the street RATHER THAN the Divine Liturgy, that is indeed disappointing. And it is a personal practice of yours to which I would object.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Sailor, thank you for this serious attempt to bring the thread back to topic and I apologize for any part I may have had in it going off.
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House_Harkonnen
Guest
Our tiny confessional Lutheran school is crawling with tiny Catholic children because of this. It’s pretty commonly understood that if you are Catholic and want your children to lose their faith, you send them to a Catholic school to be educated.
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PRmerger
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Egg-zactly!!!
People aren’t being catechized. :sad_yes:
That’s why they leave.
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EvangelCatholic
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House_Harkonnen
Guest
I was definitely poorly catechized. All my catechesis was on my own, reading books and tracts and stuff, most of here stuff put out by CA. My RCIA experience was pretty horrendous. After RCIA I wondered why anyone would join up, I did it anyway.Egg-zactly!!!
People aren’t being catechized. :sad_yes:
That’s why they leave.
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PRmerger
Guest
It is heartening to read this. Although sad as well.
'zactly. It often is horrendous.
People want to be fed the Truth. They are hungry for the Truth, and if they aren’t being fed in the CC they will go elsewhere.
Thankfully, because of Catholic Answers and other apolgetics works, this is changing.
Especially with our youth.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I concur. I believe such an agenda of simply telling Protestants and others over and over and over again how right oneself is, and just over and over posting pictures of people shaking their heads no to anything else, telling others their understanding of God is severely impoverished, can get old and actually result in the opposite of what the goal is. Assuming the goal is to bring them into the RCC. What’s the saying? You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar? Or something to that effect. Anyways I thank you again Sailor for your serious and kind responses to the thread question.
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SteveVH
Guest
Sailor, I think you are quite correct in why many leave the Catholic Church. I am a music minister at my parish and so take the liturgy very seriously. I believe that it was St. Pope John Paul, II that said “Good liturgy builds faith… poor liturgy destroys faith…” (paraphrasing).
I got involved in the music ministry 24 years ago and we do everything from very contemporary music to Gregorian chant. I love both. I am in the process of moving to another state (unfortunately - I love Colorado). After spending a month there I have tried out three different parishes and have been completely disappointed in the music. We even tried the Newman Center at a large university hoping for something more than a little old lady at the piano. The Newman center was the worst of all. It was a little old lady at the piano who couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket (God bless her soul.)
The bottom line, however, is that it never occurred to me to go to a non-Catholic faith community. While poor music and even a poor homily are not a lot of help in building our faith, the fact that we have the Eucharist trumps everything. There simply is no non-Catholic faith community (EO excluded) that can even come close to the Mass and I don’t care how dynamic the preacher or how fantastic the music. There is no worship that compares to the Mass.
And please, do not judge the hearts of those music ministers that you judge as “performing”. I have been accused of this as well. What the congregation does not see is that our music group, before each and every Mass (I do three a weekend) specifically prays that God will empty us of ourselves so that we might truly be His instruments.
God bless.
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SteveVH
Guest
Excuse me, but are you not telling us over and over again how right you are? If you would have simply answered PR’s question to begin with you would not be having this discussion. You claimed that you have been properly catechized but when challenged you fail to prove the point. Which is the whole point. People who leave the Catholic Church have not been fully catechized. You have given no evidence to refute that position. In fact, your answers only reinforce that position.
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PRmerger
Guest
I think it is quite clear, as echoed by HH, as well as so many others here, that what I have been saying, over and over again, is a sad fact.
The Church did not do a good job providing nourishing catechesis. Catholics who leave the Church are not well catechized.
I am repeating it over and over and over again because you keep rejecting this truth. You keep responding to my posts.
And I don’t see how it’s wrong to profess that I believe I am right.
It would seem that you, too, have a habit of professing things that you believe are right, yes?
Or are you simply making posts here that you believe are wrong?
To wit: I presume you believe that you are proposing “how right oneself is” in these posts?
If I took everything in Scripture literally, I think I’d be concerned with all Christians. Those who believe He founded His Church upon Peter’s confession of Jesus being the Savior the Son of God and who believe the Church is His entire body of Christian believers. Including those Protestants who might even believe the Catholic Church strayed and His Church was in need of reformation. And also those who believe He found His Church upon Peter and who believe the Catholic Church is and remains the one and only true Church. I only say this because He also said “few” will enter into the eternal kingdom. And “few” is such a small number, not very many at all. So I’d be concerned with all as they strive to work out their salvation. Just a thought.
Sy_Noe said:
Or are we to presume that in what you posted above you believe you are wrong?Sy_Noe said:
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