What are the differences between Anglican Use Mass and Anglican Mass?

[rr1213]

chelseaboy said:
Rome has reached out to you. Follow this link:The Pastoral Provision of the Servant of God

There are less than 10 of these parishes for a country of 300 million + people…and most of those parishes are located in Texas. I live in Virginia and I don’t think that there is one within a 1,000 miles of me. That’s not much of a “reaching out”…

 

[Digitonomy]

I live in Virginia and I don’t think that there is one within a 1,000 miles of me. That’s not much of a “reaching out”…

Based on this list, I would have to question your geographic analysis . However, I think your larger point is very true.

 

[jdnrite01]

There are less than 10 of these parishes for a country of 300 million + people…and most of those parishes are located in Texas. I live in Virginia and I don’t think that there is one within a 1,000 miles of me. That’s not much of a “reaching out”…

chelseaboy was speaking collectively when he said this:

In the UK church that I attend we are officially C of E though we never refere to ourselves as such. We call ourselves Catholic. We have Confession, the Mass in English and Latin, offer prayers for the Pope & venerate Mary.

We are also part of the Forward in Faith movement that contains similar churches.

I know that some people would still view what we do as invalid. And technically they may be right but it is a hurtful attitude to take when we are sincere in what we do. Maybe it would be more helpful if the Church of Rome would reach out to us & help us get back in to communion.

His community doesn’t have to join an existing Anglican Use Parish. The whole point of the pastoral provision is to allow entire communities to reunite with Rome! His post makes it pretty clear that the members of his community would welcome this.

Other than that, there’s nothing to stop chelseaboy from making an individual conversion. I don’t think Rome has to do anything else in these instances, especially nanny other Christians.

Finally, I really don’t see what Texas or Virginia have to do with this especially since chelseaboy lives - and presumably worships - in the United Kingdom.

 

[rr1213]

Finally, I really don’t see what Texas or Virginia have to do with this especially since chelseaboy lives - and presumably worships - in the United Kingdom.

I’ll be happy to be corrected, but I believe that JPII’s Pastoral Provision is applicable only to the United States.

pastoralprovision.org/

 

[jdnrite01]

I’ll be happy to be corrected, but I believe that JPII’s Pastoral Provision is applicable only to the United States.

Yes, you’re right. That’s because it was Americans who asked for it:

In July 1980 the President of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, Archbishop John Quinn, received a letter from the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Franjo Seper, indicating that the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, responding to requests received from some priests and laity formerly or actually belonging to the Episcopal Church in the United States, had decided to make a special pastoral provision for their reception into full communion with the Catholic Church.

There is nothing to stop others from likewise asking Rome to implement a similar provision for other Anglican jurisdictions, as evidenced by SACERDOTALIS CAELIBATUS

1. In virtue of the fundamental norm of the government of the Catholic Church, to which We alluded above, (82) while on the one hand, the law requiring a freely chosen and perpetual celibacy of those who are admitted to Holy Orders remains unchanged, on the other hand, a study may be allowed of the particular circumstances of married sacred ministers of Churches or other Christian communities separated from the Catholic communion, and of the possibility of admitting to priestly functions those who desire to adhere to the fullness of this communion and to continue to exercise the sacred ministry. The circumstances must be such, however, as not to prejudice the existing discipline regarding celibacy.

And that the authority of the Church does not hesitate to exercise her power in this matter can be seen from the recent Ecumenical Council, which foresaw the possibility of conferring the holy diaconate on men of mature age who are already married. (83)

The Traditional Anglican Communion, theologically conservative Anglicans and Episcopalians in Europe, America, Australia and other places, have already requested such a Pastoral Provision.

Does it make sense that the Holy See would think that it is entirely proper for American Anglicans to unite with Rome while taking an opposite opinion with regard to English Anglicans? I don’t think so. The English just have to ask.

 

[rr1213]

The Traditional Anglican Communion, theologically conservative Anglicans and Episcopalians in Europe, America, Australia and other places, have already requested such a Pastoral Provision.

I think that TAC is looking for something a bit more permanent than the Pastoral Provision…something more like the status held by the Eastern Rite Churches that are in communion with Rome.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

There are less than 10 of these parishes for a country of 300 million + people…and most of those parishes are located in Texas. I live in Virginia and I don’t think that there is one within a 1,000 miles of me. That’s not much of a “reaching out”…

Maybe this is a sign you need to get something started.

Contrary to the model some envision, the Pastoral Provision is NOT an “If you built it, they will come” proposition that has Rome erecting Anglican-use chapels all over the nation to “catch us some Anglicans.”

What exists today is the fruit of congregations that have applied and come in en masse.

But one is left to wonder, is every non-Catholic expecting to dictate all of their own terms? Or does one convert to the Catholic Church (which requires assent that She holds the fullness of truth) on the Church’s terms? What comes first, assenting to the truth of the fullness of the faith, or being accomadated in one’s personal liturgical predilections?

 

[Sarabande]

In the UK church that I attend we are officially C of E though we never refere to ourselves as such. We call ourselves Catholic. We have Confession, the Mass in English and Latin, offer prayers for the Pope & venerate Mary.

We are also part of the Forward in Faith movement that contains similar churches.

I know that some people would still view what we do as invalid. And technically they may be right but it is a hurtful attitude to take when we are sincere in what we do. Maybe it would be more helpful if the Church of Rome would reach out to us & help us get back in to communion.

I hope that like me there are many who would like to make ammends for Henry VIII’s heresy.

Chealseaboy - When I was studying abroad in London (and it was my first time out of the States), for my first Sunday there, I attended a mass that I thought was Roman Catholic because the sign said it was a Catholic church. The only thing I found different in the liturgy was that everyone received the Eucharist kneeling at the communion rail, but I just thought that was how Roman Catholics did their liturgy in other parts of the world.

It wasn’t until after I attended the mass and was invited to join them for a little brunch that I discovered that it wasn’t Roman Catholic. What I found interesting was that the pastor and the parishioners I was speaking with said that they do follow Rome although they weren’t officially with the Church, yet didn’t consider themselves really part of the Anglican Church either. I was only 20 at the time and very new to anything like this, so it just confused me. The people were very warm and nice, and one of them actually took me to the Roman Catholic church not far from there so that I could attend mass since they knew that I was RC.

Anyway, is that sort of like your parish? The parish I went to was not far off of Gray’s Inn Road, but I can’t remember the name of it.

Also, we have a friend who considers himself high church Episcopal here in the States. My husband will tease him (half seriously) and ask him why they just don’t come back to the fold. He teases him back (also half seriously) that until the RC liturgy goes back to having a more reverent liturgy would they consider going back as he believes there isn’t much difference except for the main issue - the Eucharist. But it seems that many of them are willing to believe and to accept it. I know that isn’t an excuse, but if this is truly what many of them believe, perhaps there is something missing in how we are asking them to come back - or at least the info isn’t being passed to them as effectively as they should? If they can really use the Anglican Use liturgy, are enough of them cognizant of it, because, at least according to some of my Episcopal friends that’s what’s keeping them from making the jump?

 

[rr1213]

Maybe this is a sign you need to get something started.

Contrary to the model some envision, the Pastoral Provision is NOT an “If you built it, they will come” proposition that has Rome erecting Anglican-use chapels all over the nation to “catch us some Anglicans.”

What exists today is the fruit of congregations that have applied and come in en masse.

But one is left to wonder, is every non-Catholic expecting to dictate all of their own terms? Or does one convert to the Catholic Church (which requires assent that She holds the fullness of truth) on the Church’s terms? What comes first, assenting to the truth of the fullness of the faith, or being accomadated in one’s personal liturgical predilections?

That’s great, but let’s not “pretend” that we’re reaching out to Anglicans then, ok?

 

[jdnrite01]

A recent article in the National Catholic Register entitled Anglicans’ Identity Crisis: Time to Choose, Vatican Tells Communion speaks about Cardinal Kasper’s recent remarks:

In an interview with The Catholic Herald, the cardinal, who was in Oxford, England, to give a lecture, said Anglicans needed to “clarify their identity.”

Ultimately, he said, “it is a question of the identity of the Anglican Church. Where does it belong? Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium — Catholic and Orthodox — or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century?”

“At the moment it is somewhere in between,” Cardinal Kasper continued, “but it must clarify its identity now and that will not be possible without certain difficult decisions.”

Cardinal Kasper said he hoped “certain fundamental questions” would be clarified at the Lambeth Conference so that dialogue will be possible.

“I think that it is not sustainable to keep pushing decision-making back because it only extends the crisis,” the cardinal said.

The article also speaks about the TAC request for unity with Rome:

Meanwhile, discussions at the Vatican on devising a possible structure for the Traditional Anglican Communion to come into communion with Rome are understood to be nearing completion.

The communion is a breakaway group of 400,000 Anglicans opposed to women’s ordination.

However, during his May 5 meeting with Pope Benedict XVI, [Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury] Williams asked that any potential announcement be delayed until after the Lambeth Conference.

Rome has always been approachable. What more do the Anglicans need?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

That’s great, but let’s not “pretend” that we’re reaching out to Anglicans then, ok?

Nope.

Because no one is pretending. We just aren’t reaching out in the fashion you seem to expect - that overnight we set up refugee camps.

This is a major provision that is unprecendented in our relations with Protestant churches.

I don’t understand how this seems to be so very hard to grasp.

If you want an Anglican-use parish (is that what you want?) gather a group together and make a petition.

 

[jdnrite01]

Nope.
I don’t understand how this seems to be so very hard to grasp.

If you want an Anglican-use parish (is that what you want?) gather a group together and make a petition.

Exactly! We’ve offered the invitation and even greased the way. There’s no need to make the invitation gold-plated.

 

[cecilia97]

I checked out a few websites and it seems that the Masses are almost identical, with the exception of a few prayers for the Pope. If I ever get to Texas, I would like to go to an Anglican Use Mass. Or perhaps, I could go to one in Scranton, PA, which is not that far from where I live.

Email me if you ever make it to Houston and we’ll take you! It’s beautiful!

 

[cecilia97]

Sadly, that’s true that it doesn’t HAVE to be a permanent establishment. However, some of the Anglican Use parishes in Texas have established themselves very well, that I do think there’s hope for it to continue. Because of distance I haven’t really been able to get too invovled in it, but I do know that there are several people trying to publicize the Anglican Use more.

The parish I have friends at started forming as a community in 1984 and built their church in 1994. They have a stable and GROWING group of parisioners and they are purchasing land to expand the church and add a school. They’re the real deal, believe me.

They’re also hoping to offer the TLM soon.

 

[rr1213]

I don’t understand how this seems to be so very hard to grasp.

If you want an Anglican-use parish (is that what you want?) gather a group together and make a petition.

Yes, of course. That’s a reasonable expectation.

If the Catholic Church is serious about reunification on some basis other than convert-by-convert it will do more than simply offer the Pastoral Provision. If it wishes to simply appear to be serious about the idea, it will continue the current approach. The real test will be in the response to the proposal by TAC. If an agreement cannot be reached with the Anglo-Papists of TAC, then there really is no legitimate hope of a corporate reunion with any of the Protestant Churches.

 

[jdnrite01]

The real test will be in the response to the proposal by TAC. If an agreement cannot be reached with the Anglo-Papists of TAC, then there really is no legitimate hope of a corporate reunion with any of the Protestant Churches.

Little slip from your Protestant past?

 

[aimee]

One of our favorite priests around here is an Anglican convert…so Rome reached out to him…and we like him

 

[GKC]

Little slip from your Protestant past?

Not necessarily. There really is a small tip, out past the region of the Anglo-Catholics, that are referred to as Anglo-Papalists. A rare breed, but they exist. If Anglo-Catholics have a toe in the Tiber, Anglo-Paplists are about waist deep.

GKC

*Anglicanus Catholicus *

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Yes, of course. That’s a reasonable expectation.

If the Catholic Church is serious about reunification on some basis other than convert-by-convert it will do more than simply offer the Pastoral Provision. If it wishes to simply appear to be serious about the idea, it will continue the current approach. The real test will be in the response to the proposal by TAC. If an agreement cannot be reached with the Anglo-Papists of TAC, then there really is no legitimate hope of a corporate reunion with any of the Protestant Churches.

Be careful how many eggs you put in the TAC basket as a litmus test…

Even if things don’t work out (there are a several dozen wrenches that could get thrown in the works) on that one, it would not necessarily follow that a failed efforts are indicative of Rome not being serious.

More bluntly, if Rome were not serious, she would not even be “wasting her time” for appearance sake. It isn’t out of necessity that we reach out and make effort from a pragmatic point of view. We aren’t running the risk of collapse without an infusion of non-Catholic blood.

It is out of obedience to a sense of fidelity to the Gospel that Rome pursues these contacts, dialogues and meetings. If they were not serious, they would not even bother - there are better things to do.

I am reminded of the especially polemic objections of a convert to the Russian Orthodox Church. He was warning the “true believers” that Rome’s soul goal in trying to meet with the Patriarch of Moscow was to get “a foot in the door into Holy Russia”. Honestly, he could not have been more deluded - we are ALREADY THERE (700K+ of us!) and if an “invasion” was intended, busloads and busloads and busloads of apple-cheeked newly-ordained priests from Poland and Ukraine (two countries where many of today’s adults grew up learning to speak Russian fluently in school) could be shipped in without reference or concern to the Patriarch of Moscow.

Rome does not extend olive branches and offers “just for the heck of it.”

 

[rr1213]

Little slip from your Protestant past?

I’m sorry I don’t follow you.