There is no “fracturing within the body of Christ” Kathleen.It is personal interpretation, taking it beyond private reflections, to creating more divisions and misunderstandings and fracturing within the body of Christ where there is no Christian brotherhood…Christians always knocking down other Christians instead of putting their energy into living in the kingdom of Christ…very difficult and comes at a great price.
Does your church teach that there is more that we need other than this?
No, it doesn’t.
Then you agree with sola scriptura or the principle that all the information we need for our salvation is contained in the bible.
So does the bible.But it does give us the full Deposit of Faith, which includes everything that has been handed down from Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. For we all know, as it says in the Gospel of John, that if everything Jesus did was written down, “I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” We understand that Jesus Christ did not pass Gideon Bibles to the Apostles, but taught them and preached to them verbally.
Nope. As I’ve stated, Jesus wasn’t handing out Bibles. He created a Church on the Rock, which the Gates of Hades would never prevail against.Then you agree with sola scriptura or the principle that all the information we need for our salvation is contained in the bible.
Not at all. Because it’s not just the Bible that holds the specific truths which have been handed down to us by the Church. Some of the things we cherish due to Sacred Tradition include the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and the Bible. Odd, eh?If the apostles taught the things that are now contained in the bible, if they taught the things contained in your Sacred Tradition, isn’t this “full Deposit of Faith” as you put it redundent and superfluous?
The Bible doesn’t preach. Nor does it explicitly teach, by standing up and showing us. However, the Church does that, and they use the full Deposit of Faith, being made up of Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures, to do so. That’s why you see in Acts the Apostles teaching, and the Church being the “pillar and bulwark (or foundation) of truth.”So does the bible.
Since there was no “Bible” as we know it, and the printing press was not invented for another 1400 years, and most people couldn’t read anyway…how do YOU think accomplished this?The bible is the story of God’s plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus told us and His disciples to tell the world about.
Matt.28
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Does your church teach that there is more that we need other than this?
Ok, let’s slow down here. Some of what you say here just doesn’t make sense. I posted this.Nope. As I’ve stated, Jesus wasn’t handing out Bibles. He created a Church on the Rock, which the Gates of Hades would never prevail against.
Not at all. Because it’s not just the Bible that holds the specific truths which have been handed down to us by the Church. Some of the things we cherish due to Sacred Tradition include the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and the Bible. Odd, eh?
The bible is the story of God’s plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus told us and His disciples to tell the world about.
Matt.28
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
To which you repliedDoes your church teach that there is more that we need other than this?
No, it doesn’t. But it does give us the full Deposit of Faith, which includes everything that has been handed down from Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. For we all know, as it says in the Gospel of John, that if everything Jesus did was written down, “I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” We understand that Jesus Christ did not pass Gideon Bibles to the Apostles, but taught them and preached to them verbally.
I get that Jesus taught verbally. I get that the apostles taught verbally. But what I also get is that what the apostles taught verbally was eventually written down and what they and other writer wrote was compiled into the bible. Now when asked if your church teaches that more than the salvation message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is needed you replied “No, it doesn’t. But it does give us the full Deposit of Faith, which includes everything that has been handed down from Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.”We both agree that the Bible is the story of God’s salvation, which comes to climax in the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that the Apostles were commanded to teach all, to preach the Gospel. And that’s exactly what the Catholic Church does today.
The Bible doesn’t preach.
The words of Jesus, the words of the gospel writers, the words of Paul, Peter, and James are all sermons which is PREACHING
How does the CC teach by showing us?Nor does it explicitly teach, by standing up and showing us. However, the Church does that, and they use the full Deposit of Faith, being made up of Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures, to do so. That’s why you see in Acts the Apostles teaching, and the Church being the “pillar and bulwark (or foundation) of truth.”
If the bible did do as you say, we wouldn’t have any splinterings nor schisms, now would we?
Accomplished what?Since there was no “Bible” as we know it, and the printing press was not invented for another 1400 years, and most people couldn’t read anyway…how do YOU think accomplished this?
Where?Richard,
Nobody saw you at Mass last Sunday. Sola Scriptura is negated by St. Peter himself.
The Spirit of the Living God gives us this understanding.Baptism incorporates us into the mystical Body of Christ, but we need the apostolic understanding of Scripture
What’s that?and a set creed.
You mean like the words of Jesus?We need authority to keep us from divorcing from each other.
AMEN!!!Living in Christ requires daily dying of self. It calls us to eventual complete denial and the calling upon His strength to do all things.
Richard K, I would like to know your thoughts (before my formal retort of your misunderstandings) of early Christians whom held teaching that the Apostles had; such as these Apostolic Fathers and writings:Where?
The Spirit of the Living God gives us this understanding.
What’s that?
You mean like the words of Jesus?
Matt.5
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
AMEN!!!
Why do you think that because I believe that all the information I need for my salvation is in the bible that I am picking and choosing what to believe in that bible. Let’s get this clear. I believe EVERYTHING that’s in the bible. It’s just that my beliefs as to what various things in the bible means differs from yoursSorry for coming in late, but I have a question for Richard, you keep revolving around the statement “*if we can find out all we need to know about our salvation in the bible, why do we need this as you call it “full Deposit of Faith”, *if this is your rational then why do you pick and choose what you are going to believe from the Bible and only practice what you feel is acceptable.
How many aspects of salvation do you think there are?You seem to be taking one aspect of salvation and discarding all the others.
So you think that there is something in your deposit of faith that is needed for our salvation? What would that be?This is where the Deposit of Faith and Sacred Tradition come in. it is like you have blinders to all of the other beautiful gifts Christ left or us and you tunnel vision in on one thing.
REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST
Jn 6:35-71 - Eucharist promised. Mt 26:26ff (Mk 14:22ff., Lk 22:17ff.) - Eucharist instituted
1Cor 10:16 - Eucharist = participation in Christ’s body & blood. 1 Cor 11:23-29 - receiving unworthily his body & blood. Ex 12:8, 46 - Paschal lamb had to be eaten. Jn 1:29 - Jesus called “Lamb of God”
1 Cor 5:7 - Jesus called "paschal lamb who has been sacrificed.
CONFIRMATION
Acts 19:5-6 - Paul imposed hands on baptized, received Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17 - laid hands upon them, they received Holy Spirit. 2Cor 1:21-22 - put seal on us and given Holy Spirit in our hearts
Eph 1:13 - you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Heb 6:2 - instruction about baptism & laying on of hands
CONFESSION
Mt 9:2-8 Son of Man has authority to forgive sins. Jn 20:23 - whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained. Jn 20:22 - breathed on them, “receive Holy Spirit” [recall Gn 2:7]
2Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation. Jam 5:13-15 - confess your sins to one another
Mt 18:18 - whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven. 1Jn 5:6 - there is sin that is not deadly
I don’t think we need to get into a protracted debate on the meaaning of these texts. Suffice it to say I disagree with your churches interpretation of what these texts mean.ANOINTING THE SICK
Mk 6:12-13 - anointed with oil many sick, cured them. Jam 5:14-15 - presbyters pray over sick, anoint, sins forgiven
I have no interest in reading the works of these people.Richard K, I would like to know your thoughts (before my formal retort of your misunderstandings) of early Christians whom held teaching that the Apostles had; such as these Apostolic Fathers and writings:
The First Epistle of Clement to the
Corinthians1
Didache (first catechism of the 1/2 century)
The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
Ignatius
Gregory
Origen
Ephrem
Ephraim
Cyrillus
Cyril of Jerus
Gregorius Nazian
Basilius
Athanasius
Augustine
Enchiridion
Irenaeus
Jerome
Ambrose
Hilary
Have you read much of their work? Have you read any of these Apostolic Fathers? With a brief study of their work, you could have a much broader understand of the Catholic use of Tradition.
I will await your response.
How do you interpret 1 Corinthians 11, and do you follow this teaching of St. Paul?Why do you think that because I believe that all the information I need for my salvation is in the bible that I am picking and choosing what to believe in that bible. Let’s get this clear. I believe EVERYTHING that’s in the bible. It’s just that my beliefs as to what various things in the bible means differs from yours.
The words “faith alone” are not of Scripture my friend. Baptism is one such “aspect” of salvation.How many aspects of salvation do you think there are?
The light of Tradition Richard.So you think that there is something in your deposit of faith that is needed for our salvation? What would that be?
Of course you would, you cannot see the truth through the tainted glass in which you view the Catholic Faith.I don’t think we need to get into a protracted debate on the meaaning of these texts. Suffice it to say I disagree with your churches interpretation of what these texts mean.
This has been obvious Richard, I would encourage you to do so, alas you parish in the dark (or for nothing else, good apologetics).I have no interest in reading the works of these people.
The Sermon on the Mount takes about seven minutes to read and John chapter 6 perhaps about slightly less depend on your reading speed.The words of Jesus, the words of the gospel writers, the words of Paul, Peter, and James are all sermons which is PREACHING
How many times on these forums are you going to ask this question? Especially when we have answered MANY times…So you think that there is something in your deposit of faith that is needed for our salvation? What would that be?
So, whether or not the Church is right, you will disagree. And in accordance with your Bible, does it not forbid you make personal interpretations? Or are you just going to disregard that? In your non-picking-and-choosing sessions, do you conveniently forget about that?I don’t think we need to get into a protracted debate on the meaaning of these texts. Suffice it to say I disagree with your churches interpretation of what these texts mean.
Are you saying that there is more to the sermon on the mount and that extra preaching is only found in the CC’s sacred tradition?The Sermon on the Mount takes about seven minutes to read and John chapter 6 perhaps about slightly less depend on your reading speed.
If those were expounded during preaching, we can be sure there was much more than those seven minutes of text that was being taught.
So how do you know the content of the preaching then?
You can be given a rough guideline of a lecture in a Powerpoint - but if you are not the one who prepares the Powerpoint, it will be difficult for you to present the lecture accurately. You need the author to explain to you what’s contained in the Powerpoint.
How do you and your church interpret thisYou can have the Bible but it can be interpret in 101 ways. So how do you interpret it according to what the authors wanted?
You mentioned PREACHING (you even capped the word) which meant to say there was more said in that preaching that was not written in the Gospel. In the preaching you need to explain something but was all this explanation written in the Bible? Surely not. There was not enough room for it. And yet we preach, we explain and we write exegesis - that’s what I am asking you. Where all these come from since they were not written in the Bible?Are you saying that there is more to the sermon on the mount and that extra preaching is only found in the CC’s sacred tradition?
Probably we are unable to adequately interpret isolated verse without understanding the verse in the context of the Bible and without us knowing what the context of the Bible is.How do you and your church interpret this
Rom.3
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Why do you always dodge questions by asking other absurd question that have no relevace to anything? All he asked was “how do you know the content of the preaching then?”. How does this question warrant that response? I will just take a guess and say that you cannot answer it unless you just ask a meaningless question in hopes that somebody will forget they actually asked a pertinent question.Are you saying that there is more to the sermon on the mount and that extra preaching is only found in the CC’s sacred tradition?
Again, what does this have to do with anything? He asked how YOU interpret it to the author’s meaning. Hardly seems fair to ask how the Church interprets something. I see you could not answer another simple question so you ask an irrelevant question.How do you and your church interpret this
Rom.3
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
It depends on what this means.The bible is the story of God’s plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus told us and His disciples to tell the world about.
Matt.28
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Does your church teach that there is more that we need other than this?