What are the reasons I should (or shouldn't) become Catholic?

[Janet_S]

what you know exists mainly in your head. Dont underestimate atheists. Better yet look up “Buddhist Atheists”. AT LEAST, if anyone can die an atheist, they can. Obviously.

Original sin makes no sense at all. Thats why even jews dont buy it.

There is something beyond my own thoughts. It’s called reality. I didn’t make God; He made me.

Original sin makes a lot of sense out of what we see going on in the world.

And there are no perfect atheists. Been there; done that.

 

[AgnosTheist]

And there are no perfect atheists. Been there; done that.

That was just you, miss Janet. I dont suppose you speak for every atheist out there?

Original sin makes a lot of sense out of what we see going on in the world.

It makes sense that dead infants end up in hell or limbo for something that they inherited?

 

[qui_est_ce]

so? are you saying they are protesting against each other?

You know better than this, and you know PO18 does not mean this.

science, logic & philosophy had very little bearing back then.

You know quite well that at the time of Jesus, anybody with any education was learned in Aristotilian philosphy and wisdom. There were many Greek Jews (Diaspora). Many Greek and Roman Gentiles becames Christians.

Agnos, you need to stop asking stupid questions and ask real questions, but then, you already know what the real answers are. You know that the CC is historically factual and logical. You just can’t make that leap yet. So you keep lurking about here, waiting for your AHA moment. You and Contarini should be talking to each other. Maybe you’re already PMing each other!

You would do well to admit this, and then keep seeking with a true attempt at dialog. It’s okay if you can’t accept this yet, you just need to keep coming back in honesty, and not cover up with sarcasm.

 

[AgnosTheist]

You know better than this, and you know PO18 does not mean this.

I honeslty thought that he did. Otherwise what were they protesting? Against the RCC? I think that is way past over.

You know quite well that at the time of Jesus, anybody with any education was learned in Aristotilian philosphy and wisdom.

learned people were very few back then. even then their ‘learned people’ is are so ignorant on many things. unlike today where most people are literate and has easy to every information. when evidence to every claims are sought & taken seriously and methodically/scientifically. thats why the religious is fast diminishing in free & prosperous countries. because people are realizing that current religions are asking too much or causing too much trouble even though their fantastic claims are baseless and unfounded.

You know that the CC is historically factual and logical.

Miracles are not facts and they are not historical. The RCC which makes claims of the miraculous is therefore neither factual & neither historical as well.

The Eucharist is anything but logical. Its only good for placebo. Which is why I could not take your challenge seriously. There should be a really good reason, else it makes as much sense as taking the challenge issued by every poster out there (& i had quite a few: learn arabic & read the Q’uran, donate to benny hinn, see a guru, meditate, etc).

Celibacy is anything but logical. If the rest of christianity can prosper without it, so could you. with a much lesser sex scandal & fascist attitude (see “Song for a Raggy Boy”).

The rosary isnt logical as well. Is God deaf that you need nag him with repetitions?

etc. etc

You and Contarini should be talking to each other. Maybe you’re already PMing each other!

I wish, but the guy keeps avoiding me.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I honeslty thought that he did.

yea, right.

otherwise they are just as protesting against the rcc as the rcc is protesting against judaism, if you know what i mean.

The CC does not protest Judaism. It is the fulfillement of Judaism.

learned people were very few back then.

Wrong, Jesus was a the son of a carpenter, yet he was educated. He read the scroll in the Temple at age 12. Jews were educated to read, because they had to be able to read Scripture. That’s why being blind was such a terrible thing.

thats why the religious is fast diminishing in free & prosperous countries. because people are realizing that current religions are asking too much or causing too much trouble even though their fantastic claims are baseless and unfounded.

Absolutely, religion asks a lot. doesn’t make it wrong. The reason religion is diminishing in free and prosperous countries, excepting the U.S., is materialism.

Miracles are not facts and they are not factual. The Eucharist is anything but logical. Its only good for placebo. Celibacy is anything but logical. If the rest of christianity can prosper without it, so could you. with a much lesser sex scandal & fascist attitude (see “Song for a Raggy Boy”). etc.

Your opinion. The rest of Christianity is not prospering, they keep splitting and splitting.
I you think other Christian sects don’t have sex scandals, well…
Check into celibacy in the times of Jesus. There were quite a few ascetics who practiced this. Check out the Essenes. By the way, orginal framents of Hebrew OT were found at Qumran.

Darn you, I am 20 minutes into my lunch hour. Goodbye.

PS, glad you’re feeling better

 

[mgrfin]

I do know by the grace of God I have recieved the indwelling of the HS. I don’t hear many Catholics claim to have this or even understand it for that matter…NO offense intended.

What do you mean that you don’t hear Catholic claim to have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

You don’t have to do much studying to prove yourself wrong.

The basic catechism teaches that the Sacraments give sanctifying grace. Starting off with Baptism, it is a sacrament which gives our souls a new life by which we become children of God and heirs of heaven.

Lutheranism steals what legitimate theology it has from Catholicism (excepting salvation by faith only, which has no basis in Sacred Scripture).

We talk about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit all the time. More importantly, we live this life of God in us.

peace.

 

[AgnosTheist]

yea, right.
The CC does not protest Judaism. It is the fulfillement of Judaism.

its just another way of protesting that judaism is no longer applicable.

Wrong, Jesus was a the son of a carpenter, yet he was educated. He read the scroll in the Temple at age 12. Jews were educated to read, because they had to be able to read Scripture. That’s why being blind was such a terrible thing.

what did they know about the laws of nature? what did they know about philosophy, history & psychology? nothing. its these things that persuade many educated people from abandoning religion.

Absolutely, religion asks a lot. doesn’t make it wrong. The reason religion is diminishing in free and prosperous countries, excepting the U.S., is materialism.

materialism had been a part of humanity since time immemorial. no you cannot use that as your scapegoat. and fyi, religion is diminishing in the us too. cant you see how god, jesus & religion is freely mocked in U.S. media? Just last night I saw the movieTalageda Nights & how infant jesus was mocked and made fun of. Talk show hosts like Rosie o donnel attack christianity. The reason why christian fundamentalism is catching eye nowadays is because they used to be the majority but now they are fast becoming a minority. What used to be mainstream & normal is now becoming ‘different’ and wierd.

I you think other Christian sects don’t have sex scandals,

of course there are, but on a much smaller scale. not like in the rcc where the vatican does its best to hide and relocate sex offending priests, and when discovered there goes your billions. in our philippine national novel written by our hero Jose Rizal 120 years ago, it contains stories about priest sex predation…that just proves that people have been noticing but were too scared to speak out until now.

Check into celibacy in the times of Jesus. There were quite a few ascetics who practiced this. Check out the Essenes. By the way, orginal framents of Hebrew OT were found at Qumran.

cherry picked reports. reality is something else.

PS, glad you’re feeling better

thanks.

 

[mgrfin]

I used Islam and the Koran as an example. That abominable book is light years in clarity compared to the bible. And so muslims are far less fragmented even without an authoritative governing body like the Vatican.

Yeah? Take the Sunnis and the Shites in Iraq. Talk about your getting along. They’d murder each other as soon as look at them.

The reason why we can’t leave Iraq is because these factions just can’t get along.

peace

 

[AgnosTheist]

Yeah? Take the Sunnis and the Shites in Iraq. Talk about your getting along. They’d murder each other as soon as look at them.

i pointed out that their conflict had little to do with doctrine. its hugely political.

christian disagreements are both doctrinal & political.

doctrinal disputes I blame on the religious instruction manual.

political disputes I blame mostly on human nature.

 

[Contarini]

i pointed out that their conflict had little to do with doctrine. its hugely political.

No, you asserted this, based on an irrational separation between theology and politics, which doesn’t work well for Christianity and doesn’t work at all for Islam.

Edwin

 

[qui_est_ce]

its just another way of protesting that judaism is no longer applicable.

if you will

what did they know about the laws of nature? what did they know about philosophy, history & psychology? nothing. its these things that persuade many educated people from abandoning religion.

And persuade many to CC.

materialism had been a part of humanity since time immemorial. no you cannot use that as your scapegoat.

But I will, look at what is happening in Poland. Used to be to Catholic, now that they’re free, they’re abandoning religious conventions.

and fyi, religion is diminishing in the us too. cant you see how god, jesus & religion is freely mocked in U.S. media? Just last night I saw the movieTalageda Nights & how infant jesus was mocked and made fun of. Talk show hosts like Rosie o donnel attack christianity.

Loud-mouth obnoxious people do not the majority make

The reason why christian fundamentalism is catching eye nowadays is because they used to be the majority but now they are fast becoming a minority. What used to be mainstream & normal is now becoming ‘different’ and wierd.

Fundamentalism is a 20th century phenomenon.

of course there are, but on a much smaller scale. not like in the rcc where the vatican does its best to hide and relocate sex offending priests, and when discovered there goes your billions. in our philippine national novel written by our hero Jose Rizal 120 years ago, it contains stories about priest sex predation…that just proves that people have been noticing but were too scared to speak out until now.

The RCC is the biggest, so it would be on a bigger scale. Nobody was hiding anything. They used to think pedophilia was curable, so they’d put these guys in therapy, and then back out there again. There are a lot of bad people in the world. We hold our priests up to the highest standards, some don’t live up to it. Bad, Bad, Bad. Awful Scandal. Unfortunately, the CC has deep pockets, and insurance co’s insist on settling instead of going to trial and defending. A dear priest friend just went through that. He is in his 70’s and now after all these years of faithful service, will retire in shame. Our Archdiocese has a program to work with the victims, but they don’t want healing, they want money. Having said that, I don’t doubt there are many valid cases, and it is horrible.
Still, doesn’t convince me Church is wrong, historically, factually, logically.

cherry picked reports. reality is something else.

PLEASE, come up with something a little better. You have truly gone downhill. Maybe you are still not feeling so good

As soon as you have been refuted, you dismiss it and start another subject, like the Muslims and their clearly written owner’s manual.

Your arguments have really gone empty.

thanks.

 

[AgnosTheist]

And persuade many to CC.

i think its losing a lot more to reason, than it wins for it. rcc’s future is in childbirths.

But I will, look at what is happening in Poland. Used to be to Catholic, now that they’re free, they’re abandoning religious conventions.

what made you say that?

Loud-mouth obnoxious people do not the majority make

religion is consistently mocked in t.v., if anything that proves that religion is becoming popularly despised. though its not yet the majority, it is growing rapidly. look at this…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Language_and_religion

*In a private survey conducted in 2001, 76.7 percent of American adults identified themselves as Christian, down from 86.4 percent in 1990

The total reporting non-Christian religions in 2001 was 3.7 percent, up from 3.3 percent in 1990.*

From 86.4 down to 76.7 in just 11 years. Is that astonishing or what? While 0.4% went into non-christian religion, where do you think the rest went? Into the atheist & agnostic pool, which amounted to 19.6%.

Fundamentalism is a 20th century phenomenon.

says who?

Nobody was hiding anything.

priests protecting each other from exposure, and when exposed are quietly relocated. thats not hiding for you?

They used to think pedophilia was curable, so they’d put these guys in therapy, and then back out there again.

rape deserves imprisonment, and then therapy.

As soon as you have been refuted, you dismiss it and start another subject, like the Muslims and their clearly written owner’s manual.

on what issues do you think i was refuted? i’m not afraid to admit my failures. i have nothing to lose.

 

[qui_est_ce]

on what issues do you think i was refuted? i’m not afraid to admit my failures. i have nothing to lose.

You cut out a lot of what I wrote, and reduced what I said to rape deserves therapy.

I can’t argue with your statistics, but I do think the faithful are getting more faithful.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-evangelicalism

Let’s find another thread, this one is getting stale. How about Aplogetics-Sacred Scripture?

 

[AgnosTheist]

You cut out a lot of what I wrote,

whatever I cut, much of it i agree with.

and reduced what I said to rape deserves therapy.

do you disagree with what i said? those pedophiles are nearly all guilty of rape. Why on earth should rapists escape imprisonment? (maybe because imprisonment would expose clergy corruption & scandalize the vatican)

I do think the faithful are getting more faithful.

maybe.

Let’s find another thread, this one is getting stale. How about Aplogetics-Sacred Scripture?

Lead the way.

 

[Contarini]

says who?

Pretty much everyone who has studied the subject. Of course, it’s really a matter of definition. Fundamentalism is a modern term, used to describe a reaction against modernity–but since the “reactors” are themselves modern people, fundamentalism is marked by the very modernity against which it reacts.

You seem to be using “fundamentalism” to mean “adherence to certain traditional beliefs.”

Edwin

 

[AgnosTheist]

Pretty much everyone who has studied the subject. Of course, it’s really a matter of definition. Fundamentalism is a modern term, used to describe a reaction against modernity–but since the “reactors” are themselves modern people, fundamentalism is marked by the very modernity against which it reacts.

You seem to be using “fundamentalism” to mean “adherence to certain traditional beliefs.”

Edwin

The first thing that comes to mind when ‘fundamentalism’ is mentioned, is the strict and literal following of religious book, particularly the bible. I wasnt so sure if this was indeed a 20th century phenomenon. What about the baptists, arent they strictly literal even in the 1800s?

 

[redactorab]

I wonder if the originator of this thread ever returned to get his answer. If so, he may have decided avoid Christianity entirely.

 

[Isurrender]

I’ve been following this “dialogue” with great interest and have to wonder if you guys have real jobs. I have an excuse. I’m retired. At any rate, it’s fairly obvious to me that no one is ready or willing to change their thought processes. As for me, I converted to the CC 2 1/2 years ago after much research and considerable deliberation. Let me throw one thought out there for you guys to chew on and debate. Have you seen the movie “Breach”? It’s the true story of an FBI agent, Robert Hanssen, who commited one of the most serious acts of treason in U.S. history. Early in the movie he poses an interesting question to his underling by asking (and I’m paraphrasing), “You know why the Soviet Union collapsed, don’t you?” The young man has a blank look on his face and Chris Cooper, who plays Hanssen, answers with a single word----“Godlessness.” At that said, I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we may be going down that perilous road. People just seem to be way too “sophisticated” for what they perceive to be an unnecessary “crutch,” namely to have God in their lives. As for me, I have no problem putting silly pride behind me. I’ve never, in my 63 years, been more happy and more complete. Now, as Bill O’Reilly might ask, “What say you?”

 

[AgnosTheist]

I’ve been following this “dialogue” with great interest and have to wonder if you guys have real jobs.

I’m in IT, the more free time I have the more Im doing my job: problem prevention.

I havent seen the movie you mentioned, and i disgree that it was godlessness that brought down the soviet union. it was brought down the same way as many catholic countries (like the philippines)- corruption and a bad system.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’ve been following this “dialogue” with great interest and have to wonder if you guys have real jobs. I have an excuse. I’m retired.

I’m not convinced nobody is willing to change their minds. Non Catholics on a Catholic Forum are either here to convert people or because they are questioning and want to learn more. I learned a lot on this and other threads. What I learned strengthened my faith, made me question research.

You are right about this being addictive. I am not in IT and it is interfering with my job, so I will take a break for a few days and just read.

I’ll be watching your posts, Agnos. Are you still considering the Holy Hour thingy? Hope you and Contarini can dialog. It would be interesting.

Good by.