What are the reasons I should (or shouldn't) become Catholic?

[Janet_S]

I guess I don’t understand what you are saying. You either go by the Bible or you don’t. If Scriptures weren’t for us to understand, then why do they read them in church?

I believe what the Bible teaches about salvation. It doesn’t teach OSAS. If it did, I would believe OSAS.

 

[geezerbob]

Didn’t Paul preach to Timothy about reading and studying Scripture? I never took that as not trusting yourself enough to know God’s word. Just my opinion.

The Bible itself says otherwise. Please read what Peter wrote about people who study Scripture (especially Paul’s writings) and twist it to their own destruction. The story of the eunuch also says that we need instruction for studying scripture.

 

[BrewMax]

I believe what the Bible teaches about salvation. It doesn’t teach OSAS. If it did, I would believe OSAS.

Ephesians doesn’t talk about needing to do works to be saved. I believe that Jesus saves us, not the Catholic church or any church for that matter. If you don’t trust Jesus’ sacrifice to be sufficient, you surely can’t be saved then.

 

[Delraek]

You totally lost me. So then, the Bible says that we must earn our salvation then??

No, the Bible teaches obedience and perseverance.:

Jn 14 15 “If you love Me, keep[a] My commandments.

Mt 19 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Mt 24 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Janet_S]

Why all of this when we can just plainly see what the Bible says about salvation? My trust is in God’s word.

I posted the Catechism to show you what the Church actually teaches regarding salvation, not as a proof text. You implied that we Catholics believe we must earn our salvation. If you read what the Church teaches (directly from the Catechism) you will see it does not teach we earn our salvation. Salvation is a gift from God, and the Catholic Church has always taught this.

The Catholics Church has Biblical support for what we believe. Look at the Biblical citations in the Catechism if you don’t believe me.

What you don’t get is this: you (Brewmax) don’t go by the Bible alone–you rely on your Protestant mentors to teach you.

 

[jmcrae]

I guess I don’t understand what you are saying. You either go by the Bible or you don’t. If Scriptures weren’t for us to understand, then why do they read them in church?

Of course we read out the Bible in Church; this is also where the meaning of it is explained to us.

Unfortunately, there are lots of man-made churches out there where the preaching doesn’t actually conform to what the Bible says - they just pick out a few verses (like that pamphlet, The Romans Road), string them together like an I Ching* prophecy, and come up with stuff that the Bible doesn’t actually say when you read it in whole sentences and whole paragraphs.

There is nothing in the Bible that even remotely suggests that we can have the assurance of our salvation without being obedient to Christ’s commandments, or that we can think that no matter what we do in the future, our sins are in some way “pre-forgiven.”

I can know, if I were to die this minute, whether or not I would go to Heaven, but I cannot know that I will remain in this condition for the rest of my life. At some time in the future, I might reject Christ and set myself on the path to Hell. If I do that before I die, and if I don’t repent again before I die, then I will most certainly end up in Hell - the fact that I am dedicated to Christ at this particular moment in my life, and the fact that I would go to Heaven if I were to die right now, in no way “assures” me that I’ll go to Heaven in 40 years.

The only way someone could come up with that idea is by taking part of a section here, and part of a paragraph there, and sticking them together, even though in the original text, they are not even in the same book, let alone in the same sentence.

*I Ching is a game of prophecy in which random criteria are used to select sentences from a book. You then put the randomly-selected sentences together to make a prophecy about the future.

There are many people who treat the Bible like a game of I Ching.

 

[jmcrae]

Didn’t Paul preach to Timothy about reading and studying Scripture? I never took that as not trusting yourself enough to know God’s word. Just my opinion.

St. Timothy was a Bishop; he had been trained in the Holy Tradition of the Church, and knew how to interpret the Scriptures.

 

[BrewMax]

St. Timothy was a Bishop; he had been trained in the Holy Tradition of the Church, and knew how to interpret the Scriptures.

who trained him? Does the Bible say that you must be trained to know how to read it?

 

[Janet_S]

BrewMax, one of the hardest things to get across to most Protestants is that a lot of things in the Bible are not mutually exclusive, such as grace and works. It’s not one or the other, but both. Matthew 25: 31-46, makes it perfectly clear that works are required, what they are, and also describes how those who fail to do as He commands will spend eternity. Jesus says nothing about getting extra stars in your crown or a bigger mansion in heaven for your obedience (works), but whether you will get in or be cast into the fiery pit prepared for the devil and his angels.

Without going any further, please explain how you can read this parable from Matthew and say that Our Savior requires no works from us? Isaiah 58 says essentially the same thing, but goes a bit farther and says that we should not even expect God to hear our prayers until we are obedient to His commands.

If we can come to an agreement on this point, maybe we can then move on to something else without talking past each other.

I second that!

 

[BrewMax]

St. Timothy was a Bishop; he had been trained in the Holy Tradition of the Church, and knew how to interpret the Scriptures.

I noticed your signature is a quote from Ambrose. Here’s another. “For this reason our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you are believed to be able to introduce a new feast that is unknown to the right of the church that cannot be approved by reason that it is condemned by the ancient traditions, the Feast of The Immaculate Conception.” Still like Ambrose?

 

[jmcrae]

who trained him?

St. Paul trained him.

Does the Bible say that you must be trained to know how to read it?

Yes, in 2 Peter 3:15-17

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[jmcrae]

I noticed your signature is a quote from Ambrose. Here’s another. “For this reason our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you are believed to be able to introduce a new feast that is unknown to the right of the church that cannot be approved by reason that it is condemned by the ancient traditions, the Feast of The Immaculate Conception.” Still like Ambrose?

Stay on topic, please.

 

[BrewMax]

Stay on topic, please.

My point was that it looks like Ambrose was calling out those who were going way outside of scripture.

 

[jmcrae]

My point was that it looks like Ambrose was calling out those who were going way outside of scripture.

But you didn’t give a citation for the quote, which means that someone could have just made it up and then pretended that St. Ambrose said that, or maybe he was talking about something else entirely that is not related to Mary’s Immaculate Conception, but rather to something else that was going by that name back in the day, but rather than go through six pages of trying to prove whether he actually said it or not, or what exactly he was getting at, let’s just get back on to the subject at hand.

It is extremely unlikely that the Church would suddenly permit a feast day that it had previously forbidden (unless there were some matter of discipline involved, which would have nothing to do with the interpretation of Scripture), so there is definitely some kind of error in the quotation.

 

[Janet_S]

My point was that it looks like Ambrose was calling out those who were going way outside of scripture.

Are you talking about this quote of Ambrose?:

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom

. St. Ambrose

What does that have to do with this:

I noticed your signature is a quote from Ambrose. Here’s another. “For this reason our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you are believed to be able to introduce a new feast that is unknown to the right of the church that cannot be approved by reason that it is condemned by the ancient traditions, the Feast of The Immaculate Conception.” Still like Ambrose?

Maybe I missed something or maybe his signature changed, but I don’t get the connection.

It would be nice if you would continue our discussion about Matthew. If you don’t want to, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make sense to totally change our discussion to another topic (the IC). There’s already way too much going on in this thread now.

If you want to discuss the IC, there are probably many other active threads already. You might want to do a forum search to look for them.

 

[Janet_S]

But you didn’t give a citation for the quote, which means that someone could have just made it up and then pretended that St. Ambrose said that, or maybe he was talking about something else entirely that is not related to Mary’s Immaculate Conception, but rather to something else that was going by that name back in the day, but rather than go through six pages of trying to prove whether he actually said it or not, or what exactly he was getting at, let’s just get back on to the subject at hand.

It is extremely unlikely that the Church would suddenly permit a feast day that it had previously forbidden (unless there were some matter of discipline involved, which would have nothing to do with the interpretation of Scripture), so there is definitely some kind of error in the quotation.

I couldn’t find Brewmax’s quote from Ambrose by searching the New Advent site.

I did find this though:

Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

For Brewmax, here is an IC related thread that you might be interested in checking out:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=182307
In this thread, though, they are talking about St Bernard, not St Ambrose.

 

[jmcrae]

I couldn’t find Brewmax’s quote from Ambrose by searching the New Advent site.

I did find this though:
newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

As I understand it, New Advent has everything that has been translated into English, so if it isn’t there, then it is not to be found, unless there is a translation into English that they are unaware of - but I consider that to be very unlikely.

Case closed, I think.

 

[BrewMax]

As I understand it, New Advent has everything that has been translated into English, so if it isn’t there, then it is not to be found, unless there is a translation into English that they are unaware of - but I consider that to be very unlikely.

Case closed, I think.

I don’t think so. In fact I know not. I’m not trying to be a thorn in anyone’s side here, believe me, I don’t have any fish to fry. I’m just stating a quote from Ambrose that seems very contrary to Catholic church teaching and it concerns me a great deal.

 

[BrewMax]

In fact here’s another: Of all that are born of women The holy Lord Jesus was the ONLY One who experienced not the contagion of earthly corruption. Ambrose

 

[Contarini]

I don’t think so. In fact I know not. I’m not trying to be a thorn in anyone’s side here, believe me, I don’t have any fish to fry. I’m just stating a quote from Ambrose that seems very contrary to Catholic church teaching and it concerns me a great deal.

But you haven’t said where you found it or given any reference. I’m highly dubious about it, primarily because I don’t think there was a feast of the Immaculate Conception in the days of Ambrose.

Edwin