What are the spiritual benefits of praying to the saints and Mary?

[ptisme]

Thanks for sharing that excerpt from your church bulletin with us, godisgood77.

I am also interested in hearing what other Catholics have to say on the subject. My understanding of the Catholic position is that people can pray to Mary for her intercessory prayers that she in turn would make to Christ on our behalf but that it is not a requirement to go that route. Perhaps someone can clarify.

Mary is the Ark of the Covenant and the Queen of Heaven. But she is also human. We admire her as someone to emulate but not to worship. Here is a quick 10 minute tutorial on the biblical support for Mary as the Ark and Queen. God Bless.
youtube.com/watch?list=PLBB49D26866278F74&feature=c4-overview-vl&v=xg2OQ_iPTv8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dxg2OQ_iPTv8&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLBB49D26866278F74&app=desktop

 

[joe371]

Background:
I am a protestant who was taught to pray to God our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. For example, when praying for wisdom, physical healing, my wife or other loved one, a friend, for help with a problem at work, – you name it – I pray to God in the name of Jesus our Lord and Savior for His intercession.

That is how I was born and raised to pray. It is a simple concept and is easy for me to grasp in my mind and spirit.

At times, I will also ask my brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me, if the request is not too personal or confidential.

The other day I turned on EWTN and heard Mother Angelica, whom I admire as a godly woman who is full of wisdom and common sense, praying to St Michael.

It got me wondering as to why Catholics so freely are able to pray to saints and Mary. I am not condemning this practice or looking down on it in any way because I realize there is a God and I’m not Him and I realize there is additional wisdom that I may not have come across in my life.

I just want to better understand the reasons behind the practice because it is totally foreign to me and makes me feel (at first impression) like I am end-arounding God by not going to Him directly and that it is adding complexity to the whole equation by praying to others in heaven.

Question 1:: *What does praying to saints and to Mary accomplish in your life that praying to God directly through Christ can’t accomplish? *

**Question 2: ***What I am missing out on for not doing so? *

Thanks in advance for your insights. :tiphat:

The ability of any righteous man to merit anything comes from the merit of Christ. “It is a defined article of the Catholic Faith that man before, in, and after justification derives his whole capability of meriting and satisfying, as well as his actual merits and satisfactions, solely from the infinite treasure of merits which Christ gained for us on the Cross” i.e. all the merit of the saints is a direct product of Jesus bestowing grace, which empowers the individual on this side of eternity, giving way to more treasure in heaven.

We are told by the scriptures to "store up for yourselves treasure in heaven.” This is not a material treasure, and if it’s not a treasure of merit, then what is it, and what can be done with this treasure we are told to store up, while we have the chance here on earth? This treasure in heaven, comprised of the merits of all of the saints in heaven, is possible only by the grace of Jesus, who bestowed grace upon those saints when they walked the earth - and the only way they merited the free gift of grace, ergo the treasure, was by embracing said grace when they walked the earth, as opposed to rejecting it. What can this treasure in heaven be used for, if not to be used to pray for us who remain on earth? Those saints in heaven certainly do not need a treasure in heaven for themselves for the simple fact that they have God. If you have God - the beatific vision - what else could a person need or want for themselves?

 

[Chong]

Praying to the Saints is getting a lot of people on your team. A lot of righteous people who will fervently pray for you even when you don’t! James 5 says the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. I believe the main reason is that they will actually pray fervently instead of just giving lip service.

Similarly if you faced a crisis you might ask your pastor to pray for you rather than your coworker acquaintance, the reason being confidence in the pastor to pray for you.

This was something I accepted but was not comfortable with because like you, It was foreign to me.

But last year for lent I really wanted to overcome a habitual sin I had struggled with for many many years. I prayed the rosary everyday and asked the blessed mother to pray for me. I also prayed the litany of saints asking them to pray that my burden be lifted.

It was

And I can only say from my perspective it was a pure miracle.

In the world there are many beliefs, and people receive miracles by praying or making a certain kind of sacrifice.
The God of Christians is very unique in that He revealed himself of whom He is. We read in Col. 1:15 that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Jesus’ words and teaching thus guides us towards the true God. Otherwise, we’ll be like any other belief which Jesus came to denounce.
Praying to anything else other than the God head (Father, Son & the Holy Spirit) despite the miracles was not a teaching of Christ. At Jesus time there were many practices and beliefs most of which He did not approve. Example is a belief that there would be marriages in heaven which Jesus denounced.

Here are citations of Jesus teachings:
Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
Matt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, except through me.
John14:14: If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.
John 16:23b …Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you.

John 17 records the prayer of Jesus for the apostles. He prayed that they abide in his Word, that God enables them to overcome the world, and that they may remain united.
Jesus set an example which we should follow.

 

[Randy_Carson]

In the world there are many beliefs, and people receive miracles by praying or making a certain kind of sacrifice.
The God of Christians is very unique in that He revealed himself of whom He is. We read in Col. 1:15 that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Jesus’ words and teaching thus guides us towards the true God. Otherwise, we’ll be like any other belief which Jesus came to denounce.
Praying to anything else other than the God head (Father, Son & the Holy Spirit) despite the miracles was not a teaching of Christ. At Jesus time there were many practices and beliefs most of which He did not approve. Example is a belief that there would be marriages in heaven which Jesus denounced.

Here are citations of Jesus teachings:
Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
Matt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, except through me.
John14:14: If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.
John 16:23b …Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you.

John 17 records the prayer of Jesus for the apostles. He prayed that they abide in his Word, that God enables them to overcome the world, and that they may remain united.
Jesus set an example which we should follow.

We are to worship God alone, and Jesus gave many examples of praying to God.

But not all prayer is worship, and simply talking to our brothers and sisters who are already in heaven is not worship.

Pray tell, Chong, what verse in the New Testament specifically tells you, a believer, that you may not talk to believers who have already entered the Father’s presence?

By the way, I posted a whole bunch of material for you in the “Which Church?” thread but you have not responded to any of it. Will you?

 

[Chong]

We are to worship God alone, and Jesus gave many examples of praying to God.

But not all prayer is worship, and simply talking to our brothers and sisters who are already in heaven is not worship.

Pray tell, Chong, what verse in the New Testament specifically tells you, a believer, that you may not talk to believers who have already entered the Father’s presence?

By the way, I posted a whole bunch of material for you in the “Which Church?” thread but you have not responded to any of it. Will you?

I have responded severally, and have just responded again.

Randy, I have reservations on believers in heaven.
About Lazarus and the rich man, it was a parable not a real situation. The bosom of Abraham is symbolic.
Many scriptures talk about the after life. When you compare all of them you have a conclusion of what the real implication is.
I’d like to limit my citations to Jesus words and the immediate Apostles’ teachings.

Jesus teaches that there will be a resurrection;
Matt 22:31: But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God.
The apostle Paul teaches that the dead shall rise.
1Thes 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
The book of revelation teaches of a future resurrection of the dead.
Rev 20:5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The concept of saints being in heaven is implied in Rev 5:8, And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

However, the word saints appears many times in other areas referring to people who were alive on the earth; here are just a few of the many citations.
Rev 13:7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them
Rev 14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rom 1:7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
1Co:1:2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth…called to be saints.
Eph 6:18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Phip1:1: Paul and Timothy… unto all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi
Colos1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse:

The prayer of the saints are those of people on earth. If you look more keenly, you’ll see in Rev 6:9: … I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
These souls were not praying, but they cried for vengeance.

That’s my review of the apostolic version of the the saints and resurrection.
The 24 elders in heaven is another topic, though they are not praying but worshiping God.
I’d very much wish to hear your view.

 

[joe371]

Background:
I am a protestant who was taught to pray to God our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. For example, when praying for wisdom, physical healing, my wife or other loved one, a friend, for help with a problem at work, – you name it – I pray to God in the name of Jesus our Lord and Savior for His intercession.

That is how I was born and raised to pray. It is a simple concept and is easy for me to grasp in my mind and spirit.

At times, I will also ask my brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me, if the request is not too personal or confidential.

The other day I turned on EWTN and heard Mother Angelica, whom I admire as a godly woman who is full of wisdom and common sense, praying to St Michael.

It got me wondering as to why Catholics so freely are able to pray to saints and Mary. I am not condemning this practice or looking down on it in any way because I realize there is a God and I’m not Him and I realize there is additional wisdom that I may not have come across in my life.

I just want to better understand the reasons behind the practice because it is totally foreign to me and makes me feel (at first impression) like I am end-arounding God by not going to Him directly and that it is adding complexity to the whole equation by praying to others in heaven.

Question 1:: *What does praying to saints and to Mary accomplish in your life that praying to God directly through Christ can’t accomplish? *

**Question 2: ***What I am missing out on for not doing so? *

Thanks in advance for your insights. :tiphat:

Are there any benefits from asking our sinful brothers and sister in Christ, in this world to pray for us? If yes, then how much more so, for our brothers and sisters in Christ in heaven, participating in God’s “divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil” i.e. perfectly conformed to God’s divine Will?

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 2 Peter

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have responded severally, and have just responded again.

My posts in “Which Church” began at #645. I will look for your posts. Thanks.

In what you have posted below, you have not provided a verse which prohibits anyone from talking to the saints in heaven.

Randy, I have reservations on believers in heaven.
About Lazarus and the rich man, it was a parable not a real situation. The bosom of Abraham is symbolic.

If Jesus used an example that caused confusion, was He a bad teacher? The bosom of Abraham is NOT symbolic. “Bosom of Abraham” refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham )

Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example

“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though. Of course, as God, Jesus did not need to speak face to face with Moses and Elijah, but because Jesus was also fully human, it makes sense that they would appear to him in a way that his human senses could understand.

Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)

Peter prayed to God, then SPOKE to a “dead” person who heard Peter talking to her.

Many scriptures talk about the after life. When you compare all of them you have a conclusion of what the real implication is.

I’d like to limit my citations to Jesus words and the immediate Apostles’ teachings.

Jesus teaches that there will be a resurrection;

Matt 22:31: But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God.

Amen.

The apostle Paul teaches that the dead shall rise.

1Thes 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Amen.

The book of revelation teaches of a future resurrection of the dead.

Rev 20:5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Amen.

The concept of saints being in heaven is implied in Rev 5:8, And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

However, the word saints appears many times in other areas referring to people who were alive on the earth; here are just a few of the many citations.

Rev 13:7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them

Rev 14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rom 1:7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

1Co:1:2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth…called to be saints.

Eph 6:18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Phip1:1: Paul and Timothy… unto all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi

Colos1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse:

The prayer of the saints are those of people on earth. If you look more keenly, you’ll see in

Rev 6:9: … I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

These souls were not praying, but they cried for vengeance.

That’s my review of the apostolic version of the the saints and resurrection.

The 24 elders in heaven is another topic, though they are not praying but worshiping God.
I’d very much wish to hear your view.

I must not understand what you are saying, because it appears to me that you are making MY point. There are saints on earth and saints in heaven. The angels in heaven offer the prayers of the saints to God. Which saints? Those in heaven see God face to face already., so they do not need ministering spirits to offer their prayers…they can do so themselves directly.

The prayers being offered by the angels in heaven are those of the saints still on earth.

 

[Chong]

My posts in “Which Church” began at #645. I will look for your posts. Thanks.

In what you have posted below, you have not provided a verse which prohibits anyone from talking to the saints in heaven.

For one, its not clear about the saints in heaven.
Jesus teaching his disciples how to pray does not mention that the ‘saints’ in heaven would assist in their petitions. By the way John the baptist died while Jesus was still alive.
James the brother of John was beheaded, Stephen was stoned to death. BUT, Peter and the other apostles never asked them to pray for them since they were in heaven.

You have asked about a verse which prohibits anyone from speaking to the saints in heaven. The only place which recorded is in 1 Sam 28:7-8 when King Saul went to consult the dead Samuel. They conversed, and King Saul asked for help, but the ‘dead’ did not help the living.
Why we do not find a direct scripture is because the OT prohibited any form of direct communion with the dead. The prayer to saints in heaven is rather superficial; the practice of consulting the dead for help is more elaborate and may involve mediums.
The idea of praying to saints seems to be a latter introduction into the church practices possibly in the 2nd or 3rd Century AD. Jesus & the apostles never supported it.

If Jesus used an example that caused confusion, was He a bad teacher? The bosom of Abraham is NOT symbolic. “Bosom of Abraham” refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham )

That’s the same thing I mean by symbolic.

“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though. Of course, as God, Jesus did not need to speak face to face with Moses and Elijah, but because Jesus was also fully human, it makes sense that they would appear to him in a way that his human senses could understand.

Peter is the one who asserted that they were Moses & Elijah, though Jesus did not refute the claim. What we know of Elijah is that he did not die but was taken up to heaven alive. Moses died in Moab though nobody knows what happened at his death. The only other person who went alive to heaven was Enoch in Genesis.
However, their appearance that time does not in any way imply that the prayers of those on earth could be aided by them. Rev 4:4 talks of 24 elders in heaven…

Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example
“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)
Peter prayed to God, then SPOKE to a “dead” person who heard Peter talking to her.

It was not a practice of Peter, rather it was a specific event where he raised a dead person.
Jesus did the same when he raised the daughter of Jairus & Lazarus. The raising event would necessitate the miracle worker to utter some words eg calling the name of that person.

I must not understand what you are saying, because it appears to me that you are making MY point. There are saints on earth and saints in heaven. The angels in heaven offer the prayers of the saints to God. Which saints? Those in heaven see God face to face already., so they do not need ministering spirits to offer their prayers…they can do so themselves directly.

The prayers being offered by the angels in heaven are those of the saints still on earth.

Unless heaven means something different from what we understand.
When one dies, like Lazarus, his soul goes to a resting place until the day of resurrection.
After resurrection, (though there is a first resurrection), then judgement.
In Rev. 6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
These souls of saints are just waiting until the day of resurrection.

The prayers that one makes while alive is important before God. James 5:16b, says, The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[Randy_Carson]

For one, its not clear about the saints in heaven.
Jesus teaching his disciples how to pray does not mention that the ‘saints’ in heaven would assist in their petitions. By the way John the baptist died while Jesus was still alive.
James the brother of John was beheaded, Stephen was stoned to death. BUT, Peter and the other apostles never asked them to pray for them since they were in heaven.

You have asked about a verse which prohibits anyone from speaking to the saints in heaven. The only place which recorded is in 1 Sam 28:7-8 when King Saul went to consult the dead Samuel. They conversed, and King Saul asked for help, but the ‘dead’ did not help the living.
Why we do not find a direct scripture is because the OT prohibited any form of direct communion with the dead. The prayer to saints in heaven is rather superficial; the practice of consulting the dead for help is more elaborate and may involve mediums.
The idea of praying to saints seems to be a latter introduction into the church practices possibly in the 2nd or 3rd Century AD. Jesus & the apostles never supported it.

I was pretty sure you would make this mistake.

By forbidding occult contact with the supernatural realm, what the Church is forbidding are the methods and techniques generally used to “summon up” departed human beings or other spirits (e.g., ouija boards, crystal balls, séances, mediums, etc.). It is not forbidding “conversation,” so to speak, between those in this life and those in the next; it is only forbidding attempts to manipulate the supernatural realm to obtain forbidden power or knowledge (CCC 2116).

Take another look at Saul’s attempt to speak with the dead prophet, Samuel, through the medium of Endor (1 Sam. 28:7-20). **It was not Saul’s desire to speak with Samuel that was his sin but the forbidden means by which he accomplished it. It would have been perfectly fine for Saul to have prayed to Samuel, asking Samuel for his intercession, but instead Saul had a medium “conjure” Samuel. **The text gives us no reason to think that the person with whom Saul spoke was not Samuel—demonstrating that God may allow such contact to occasionally “work” to bring good out of evil (in this case, allowing Samuel to issue the warning to Saul that he would soon die)—but that does not make the forbidden methods lawful.

Prayer to saints, on the other hand, is entirely different. There is no attempt to conjure up spirits, no attempt to seek forbidden knowledge. All that is done is that the petitioner honors God’s friend and asks the saint for prayer.

And you have no verse which prohibits me or you from speaking with family and friends who have already entered heaven while I have given you examples of both Jesus and Peter speaking to people who were no longer alive here on earth.

It’s just that simple.

By the way, I’m still looking for your responses to all my posts on Peter as the Rock (25 Protestant Scholars Agree) and the Royal Steward.

 

[Chong]

I was pretty sure you would make this mistake.

By forbidding occult contact with the supernatural realm, what the Church is forbidding are the methods and techniques generally used to “summon up” departed human beings or other spirits (e.g., ouija boards, crystal balls, séances, mediums, etc.). It is not forbidding “conversation,” so to speak, between those in this life and those in the next; it is only forbidding attempts to manipulate the supernatural realm to obtain forbidden power or knowledge (CCC 2116).

Take another look at Saul’s attempt to speak with the dead prophet, Samuel, through the medium of Endor (1 Sam. 28:7-20). **It was not Saul’s desire to speak with Samuel that was his sin but the forbidden means by which he accomplished it. It would have been perfectly fine for Saul to have prayed to Samuel, asking Samuel for his intercession, but instead Saul had a medium “conjure” Samuel. **The text gives us no reason to think that the person with whom Saul spoke was not Samuel—demonstrating that God may allow such contact to occasionally “work” to bring good out of evil (in this case, allowing Samuel to issue the warning to Saul that he would soon die)—but that does not make the forbidden methods lawful.

Prayer to saints, on the other hand, is entirely different. There is no attempt to conjure up spirits, no attempt to seek forbidden knowledge. All that is done is that the petitioner honors God’s friend and asks the saint for prayer.

And you have no verse which prohibits me or you from speaking with family and friends who have already entered heaven while I have given you examples of both Jesus and Peter speaking to people who were no longer alive here on earth.

It’s just that simple.

By the way, I’m still looking for your responses to all my posts on Peter as the Rock (25 Protestant Scholars Agree) and the Royal Steward.

Thanks Randy.
I’ll look for that post, though I remember replying to that thread.

As I had mentioned, the practice was unknown during the OT and in Jesus time, thus it could not have been documented either on its favour or against.

Jesus teaching on death and resurrection can shed alot of light on what happens in the afterlife.
The following are people raised by Jesus:
The boy of the window of Nain: Luk7:15:
The daughter of Jairus Luk8:42:
Lazarus John11:14

Peter raised Dorcas, and Paul raised Eutichus. In the OT there were people who were raised from death too.
The recorded history does not say any of those who were raised were in heaven with God. The silence means they did not have any memory of any activity in their death.
I was checking on the history of this practice and to my expectation, it appears to have been popularized in the 3rd century AD when Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire.

We have a documented event of Jesus teaching his disciples how to pray. The don’ts was not to use repetitive prayer as the pagans, then he went to the dos. This is the Lords prayer. We know that Jesus prayed at many times though the actual words are not written. In John 17, Jesus prayed for his disciples and his words are recorded, He did not ask any of those in heaven, be it the ‘saints’ or Moses, or Elijah or even the angels for intercession. He prayed to God alone.

Paul in his many writings does not hint in any way that the saints in heaven would assist if one sought their intercession. He refers to God alone as the source of all help.
Peter, the leader of the disciples did not invoke the name of James who had been beheaded by Herod, or of Stephen who was stoned. None of the apostles did that.

If we say that the ‘saints’ are in heaven, then it implies that they already resurrected and went to be with God.
Rev 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
From the book of Revelation, there is no one point that says that they were praying or even interceeding for those on earth.

Lastly, God is omnipresent. The angels are not, and even the devil is not omnipresent.
Jesus said that in heaven, Matt 22:30: at the time of resurrection, people will be like angels… not like God. Even if we are made in the likeness of God, we are not like God. Adam was not like God when he was created in the garden of Eden. So, the aspect of ‘saints’ acquiring the aspect of God is not based on Christ’s viewpoint.

 

[thenobes]

Thanks Randy.
I’ll look for that post, though I remember replying to that thread.

As I had mentioned, the practice was unknown during the OT and in Jesus time, thus it could not have been documented either on its favour or

This is incorrect. Both the book of Tobit and the book of 2nd Machabees have examples of such intercessio. In Tobit by the angel Raphael, and in 2 Machabees by the prophet Jeremiah, who was deceased at that time.

peace
steve

 

[Randy_Carson]

Paul in his many writings does not hint in any way that the saints in heaven would assist if one sought their intercession. He refers to God alone as the source of all help.

Do Christians in the west pray on behalf of the persecuted Church in China?

We intercede to God for you. We can ask the saints in heaven to intercede to God for you, also.

Peter, the leader of the disciples did not invoke the name of James who had been beheaded by Herod, or of Stephen who was stoned. None of the apostles did that.

Chong, that’s an argument from silence. How can you know with certainty what they did in their private prayer. Nothing is recorded in scripture, but so what? There is no prohibition against speaking to the saints, and there are logical reasons why we think it is okay.

All YOU have is your denomination’s rejection of it…but that is not the same as having a biblical basis for doing so. That you do not have.

Lastly, God is omnipresent. The angels are not, and even the devil is not omnipresent. Jesus said that in heaven, Matt 22:30: at the time of resurrection, people will be like angels… not like God. Even if we are made in the likeness of God, we are not like God. Adam was not like God when he was created in the garden of Eden. So, the aspect of ‘saints’ acquiring the aspect of God is not based on Christ’s viewpoint.

Sure, but this does not mean that God is unable to enable the saints to hear our prayers, does it? Eye has not seen, Chong, and ear has not heard…

 

[eatpraylove11]

You ever ask someone to pray with you? Jesus said whenver 2 people are gathered in his name, he is among them. I believe in Heaven and when I pray with the Saints, I’m simply praying to God with others… They just happen to be in Heaven

I love this answer:thumbsup:

 

[Chong]

This is incorrect. Both the book of Tobit and the book of 2nd Machabees have examples of such intercessio. In Tobit by the angel Raphael, and in 2 Machabees by the prophet Jeremiah, who was deceased at that time.

peace
steve

Though it may necessitate another thread, those books are deuterocanonical and as such are not used by many non-Catholics. They were not part of the Hebrew sacred scriptures.
However, the practice is totally absent in the 1st century, had it been, Jesus and the apostles would have mentioned it and possibly encouraged the believers to continue with it. There were many other practices in the OT that are not of the same significance today as they were during the OT. Example: circumcision on the 8th day, offering sacrifices of burnt offerings, lineage of priesthood, wars etc.

 

[Techno2000]

However, the practice is totally absent in the 1st century, had it been, Jesus and the apostles would have mentioned it and possibly encouraged the believers to continue with it. .

Gregory Nazianzen

Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]). staycatholic.com/ecf_intercession.htm

 

[Chong]

Gregory Nazianzen

Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]). staycatholic.com/ecf_intercession.htm

That’s Gregory’s view. Jesus’s words are rather different:
John14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Matt 24:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus words are prophetic and shall abide for ever. One day Jesus will come with His glory and with the sounds of the trumpets, and the dead shall arise.

 

[Chong]

Are there any benefits from asking our sinful brothers and sister in Christ, in this world to pray for us? If yes, then how much more so, for our brothers and sisters in Christ in heaven, participating in God’s “divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil” i.e. perfectly conformed to God’s divine Will?

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 2 Peter

‘asking’ is via conversing. Its like the way we are communicating on the internet. you send the message, I decode it and respond. I may chose not to respond, or may respond inappropriately.
You ask your friends or comrades for assistance. However, assistance may also come when people sympathize with your condition. The same case applies to prayers.
Asking the ‘saints’ to pray for you is:

1. monologue as there is no conversation.
2. elevating the ‘saints’ to god-like in that they have become omnipresent, all hearing, all seeing, all able, not limited by time and space etc.
3. making the departed be workers for you.

In short, Jesus told the disciple to pray lest they fall into temptation. He prayed many times and they saw him pray. He had taught the disciples how to pray and wished that they would continue with his example.

 

[Chong]

Do Christians in the west pray on behalf of the persecuted Church in China?

We intercede to God for you. We can ask the saints in heaven to intercede to God for you, also.

Thanks for your intercession! About the saints, I’d rather from those whom we are able to converse with. So, Randy and the others, pray that many Chinese may come to the knowledge of Christ. China is very populous but only a few are Christians, about 2%.

Chong, that’s an argument from silence. How can you know with certainty what they did in their private prayer. Nothing is recorded in scripture, but so what? There is no prohibition against speaking to the saints, and there are logical reasons why we think it is okay.
All YOU have is your denomination’s rejection of it…but that is not the same as having a biblical basis for doing so. That you do not have.

They followed what Jesus had taught them. The Lord’s prayer. Also, their Jewish background was a guiding principle. The concept of sainthood gained momentum in the 3rd century AD after Christianity was declared the state religion of the Roman Empire. There-before, it was not widely practiced if at all it was.

Not denomination’s rejection of it, but, scripturally unsupported.
Now that you support it, give your logical and christian reasons why you think its ok

Sure, but this does not mean that God is unable to enable the saints to hear our prayers, does it? Eye has not seen, Chong, and ear has not heard…

God is able to do much more than we can imagine.
BUT He did it once by sending Jesus to the world to show us the GOD’S WAY.
Jesus is the way, the Truth and the Life, no one goes to the Father except through Him.
Whatever we ask in His name, we shall receive. He’s sitted at the right hand of God the Father and makes intercession for us. He sent the Holy Spirit to be the guide of the Church
The same Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven and will come for us. We’ll NOT go to him. So, when we die, we wait for his trumpet so that where he is, we shall be also.

 

[ericc]

If God knows my every thought and need and the Bible says we can boldly approach the throne of grace in His name, praying for intercession from a saint comes across to me like a child who is afraid of his father so he asks his mother, brother, or Uncle Joe to go his father in place of doing so himself because of an implied doubt that his father might not have the time or desire to listen to him.

I realize this may be wrong thinking on my part but sometimes I think this, probably based on my religious upbringing.

I can understand the feeling. I tend to describe it as “embarrassment” or “shyness” depending on upbringing or culture.

If you have teenage kids, daughters especially, if they have a problem, father is probably the last person to check with. Typically, that would be with friends, elder sisters, mum in that order of preferences. Dad is always last, no choice option.

If your child is having problems with his school work, isn’t it natural for him to ask his older siblings who have done it previously for help before going higher up? If I have a serious need, such as a very sick child, I’d ask EVERYONE, every IOUs I can think of, Whoever can help, I’d ask. Perhaps Father would like to see how badly I am in need of help. He may intervene immediately or he may let me experience some discomfort first to strengthen me for future battles.

I just find it silly not to make full use of resources made available FOC to help us on our spiritual journey. Don’t you find it strange when you need help, it is only me and you God but in your church , you pray for everyone and ask people to pray for you, (Whether you can hear their prayers is a separate thing. Because someone ever asked how the saints can hear us because they are dead. This is to preempt the hearing range issue.)

 

[Jon_S_1]

‘asking’ is via conversing. Its like the way we are communicating on the internet. you send the message, I decode it and respond. I may chose not to respond, or may respond inappropriately.
You ask your friends or comrades for assistance. However, assistance may also come when people sympathize with your condition. The same case applies to prayers.
Asking the ‘saints’ to pray for you is:

1. monologue as there is no conversation.
2. elevating the ‘saints’ to god-like in that they have become omnipresent, all hearing, all seeing, all able, not limited by time and space etc.
3. making the departed be workers for you.

In short, Jesus told the disciple to pray lest they fall into temptation. He prayed many times and they saw him pray. He had taught the disciples how to pray and wished that they would continue with his example.

Chong,

Regarding your 3 points.

1. same objection can be said for prayer in general.
2. it does not elevate the saints to anything but people in heaven. It is God who allows them to hear prayers (is God incapable of doing that??)
3. the saints in heaven do work. Non stop, for those on earth. See below

Revelation 5:8 When He had taken the [a]book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.