What are the *True Facts* Regarding the Abortion-Approving Nun?

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Yes. I think everyone has the right to try to bring an issue to their representative. What their representative does with it, is up to their own discretion. I can’t see how Jewish people have not tried to bring that issue, as well as others that are important to them, to their representative at one time or another.
I may be wrong but I think that’s what Brother JR is trying to say. Catholics have every right to try and change laws or enact laws to help society conform to our values. Not only do we have a right, but we have a responsibility to do so.

I don’t think it’s OK to support laws or politicians that go against our Catholic values just because we think other Americans won’t accept our Truth. We may not be successful, but God will see the fact that we try. We may have to tolerate laws like abortion that we abhor until we can change hearts and minds and laws.

I’m not sure exactly what you believe. Is it OK to fight against abortion laws or not?
 
I may be wrong but I think that’s what Brother JR is trying to say. Catholics have every right to try and change laws or enact laws to help society conform to our values. Not only do we have a right, but we have a responsibility to do so.

I don’t think it’s OK to support laws or politicians that go against our Catholic values just because we think other Americans won’t accept our Truth. We may not be successful, but God will see the fact that we try. We may have to tolerate laws like abortion that we abhor until we can change hearts and minds and laws.

I’m not sure exactly what you believe. Is it OK to fight against abortion laws or not?
Thank you.

Agree re Brother JR.
Also agree that I can’t figure out what rence believes.

Also add to “is it ok to fight against …”
is it our moral DUTY to fight against abortion laws.
 
I may be wrong but I think that’s what Brother JR is trying to say. Catholics have every right to try and change laws or enact laws to help society conform to our values. Not only do we have a right, but we have a responsibility to do so.

I don’t think it’s OK to support laws or politicians that go against our Catholic values just because we think other Americans won’t accept our Truth. We may not be successful, but God will see the fact that we try. We may have to tolerate laws like abortion that we abhor until we can change hearts and minds and laws.

I’m not sure exactly what you believe. Is it OK to fight against abortion laws or not?
You’re asking me if I think it’s OK to fight against abortions laws? Yes, I think it’s okay. I think any citizen should be able to lobby for or against things that have significance to them. If you think abortion should be illegal, lobby for it. But that’s not what has been said on this thread.

On the contrary, what’s being said is that the Cathlolic Church, regardless of what others believe, or what other religions teach, has the only right truth with the only right answers and therefore everyone in the world is required to abide by them. Whether it’s true or not is irrelevent if another party doesn’t believe it. Completely irrelevent – to anyone except a Catholic. Other religions teach they have the only and right truth as well. The days of being burned at the stake or being drowned as punishment for not obeying the Church are gone. The fact is people have the right to live within the teachings of the religion of their choice. They even have the right to not have any religion at all. One can lobby about religious matters until they run out of hot air, but unless the broad public wants it, it’s not going to happen.

What Catholics have the responsibility to do is spread the word about the teachings of the Church, not enforce it. There is no where in the Bible or the CCC that says we are supposed to force Catholic teachings on the masses. In fact, it says if the teachings are rejected, to leave the persons and move on to someone else and continue teaching. Therefore, if a person rejects the teachings of the Church, that is their right to do so and God will be their judge, not the Catholics who are supposed to be spreading the teachings of the Church. Their job is to teach and lead, not enforce.
 
I don’t think anyone has advocated mandatory Catholicsm.

I think what is being said is that abortion is always** evil**, and as Catholics we are not to tolerate evil. By not providing abortions at Catholic hospitals, we are attempting to be true to our faith. We are not forcing anyone to be Catholic…

I hope that most would not expect a Catholic hospital to perform genital mutilations on little girls…even though some belief systems call for it.
No one would advocate transfering the little girl out to a non Catholic hospital.
Probably, or hopefully, someone in the hospital would even intervene on behalf of the little girl, and place her into protectve custody.

But, abortion being evil is something we don’t understand…and justify it because not everyone is Catholic. 🤷

I don’t get it.::confused:
 
You’re asking me if I think it’s OK to fight against abortions laws? Yes, I think it’s okay. I think any citizen should be able to lobby for or against things that have significance to them. If you think abortion should be illegal, lobby for it. But that’s not what has been said on this thread.

On the contrary, what’s being said is that the Cathlolic Church, regardless of what others believe, or what other religions teach, has the only right truth with the only right answers and therefore everyone in the world is required to abide by them. Whether it’s true or not is irrelevent if another party doesn’t believe it. Completely irrelevent – to anyone except a Catholic. Other religions teach they have the only and right truth as well. The days of being burned at the stake or being drowned as punishment for not obeying the Church are gone. The fact is people have the right to live within the teachings of the religion of their choice. They even have the right to not have any religion at all. One can lobby about religious matters until they run out of hot air, but unless the broad public wants it, it’s not going to happen.

What Catholics have the responsibility to do is spread the word about the teachings of the Church, not enforce it. There is no where in the Bible or the CCC that says we are supposed to force Catholic teachings on the masses. In fact, it says if the teachings are rejected, to leave the persons and move on to someone else and continue teaching. Therefore, if a person rejects the teachings of the Church, that is their right to do so and God will be their judge, not the Catholics who are supposed to be spreading the teachings of the Church. Their job is to teach and lead, not enforce.
OK. I’m clear on what you think about individuals.

What do you think about Catholic politicians, judges, etc? Can they in good conscience lay their Catholic values aside to decide on secular laws that pertain to everyone, even when the laws require them to go against Church teaching?
 
OK. I’m clear on what you think about individuals.

What do you think about Catholic politicians, judges, etc? Can they in good conscience lay their Catholic values aside to decide on secular laws that pertain to everyone, even when the laws require them to go against Church teaching?
Catholic politicians, judges, etc. need to follow the law. They are bound by the law. If they are in conflict with the law and their religious teachings, no matter what religion, they should step down.

I think that if a politician finds him or herself in conflict with the teachings of the Church and the wants and the needs of citizens who are not Catholic, and can’t consider the fact that these non-catholics don’t need to be forced to comply with Church teachings by changing laws to make it so, then they need to not be in that position. And I believe people consider these things when they vote.
 
catharina she won’t answer either you nor me-we’re a little too orthodox for her liking.She’ll post away l;ike we don’t exist.Just watch.
 
That’s what I’ve been trying to say, or in other words, the Catholic Church is responsible for governing or enforcing Catholic laws to Catholics. It can’t force non-catholics to accept their laws. Our government represents different people with different faiths, and can’t and won’t, based civil law on any one religion’s teachings.
rence, I do wonder if you will respond to this, a copy of my Post 217.
It was my reponse to yours (above).


Rence, do you understand that the abortion laws are NEW.?
The nation’s been around 200+ yrs.
Abortion’s been legalized for 40+ yrs.
IOW, what was once formally forbidden is now easily allowed.

What most Catholics, like Brother JR, are saying is this:
The laws need to be changed again. It is our moral duty to make that happen.

Do you understand that?
I’m not being sarcastic.
I’m truly wondering if you understand that the laws need changing.

You seem to be so comfortable defending the legality of abortion.
It’s strange. It’s confusing. It’s unusual.
 
Regarding some of the comments about not legislating against the opinion of the majority or not “forcing” others to follow “Catholic” morality, Pope John Paul II said this in Evangelium vitae, numbers 69-70, with some deletions:

"69. In any case, in the democratic culture of our time it is commonly held that the legal system of any society should limit itself to taking account of and accepting the convictions of the majority. It should therefore be based solely upon what the majority itself considers moral and actually practices. Furthermore, if it is believed that an objective truth shared by all is de facto unattainable, then respect for the freedom of the citizens-who in a democratic system are considered the true rulers-would require that on the legislative level the autonomy of individual consciences be acknowledged. Consequently, when establishing those norms which are absolutely necessary for social coexistence, the only determining factor should be the will of the majority, whatever this may be. Hence every politician, in his or her activity, should clearly separate the realm of private conscience from that of public conduct.

As a result we have what appear to be two diametrically opposed tendencies. On the one hand, individuals claim for themselves in the moral sphere the most complete freedom of choice and demand that the State should not adopt or impose any ethical position but limit itself to guaranteeing maximum space for the freedom of each individual, with the sole limitation of not infringing on the freedom and rights of any other citizen. On the other hand, it is held that, in the exercise of public and professional duties, respect for other people’s freedom of choice requires that each one should set aside his or her own convictions in order to satisfy every demand of the citizens which is recognized and guaranteed by law…
  1. At the basis of all these tendencies lies the ethical relativism which characterizes much of present-day culture. There are those who consider such relativism an essential condition of democracy, inasmuch as it alone is held to guarantee tolerance, mutual respect between people and acceptance of the decisions of the majority, whereas moral norms considered to be objective and binding are held to lead to authoritarianism and intolerance.
But it is precisely the issue of respect for life which shows what misunderstandings and contradictions, accompanied by terrible practical consequences, are concealed in this position. …

When a parliamentary or social majority decrees that it is legal, at least under certain conditions, to kill unborn human life, is it not really making a “tyrannical” decision with regard to the weakest and most defenseless of human beings? Everyone’s conscience rightly rejects those crimes against humanity of which our century has had such sad experience. But would these crimes cease to be crimes if, instead of being committed by unscrupulous tyrants, they were legitimated by popular consensus?

Democracy cannot be idolized to the point of making it a substitute for morality or a panacea for immorality. Fundamentally, democracy is a “system” and as such is a means and not an end. Its “moral” value is not automatic, but depends on conformity to the moral law to which it, like every other form of human behavior, must be subject: in other words, its morality depends on the morality of the ends which it pursues and of the means which it employs. …

The basis of these values cannot be provisional and changeable “majority” opinions, but only the acknowledgment of an objective moral law which, as the “natural law” written in the human heart, is the obligatory point of reference for civil law itself. …"

Dan
 
rence, I do wonder if you will respond to this, a copy of my Post 217.
It was my reponse to yours (above).


Rence, do you understand that the abortion laws are NEW.?
The nation’s been around 200+ yrs.
Abortion’s been legalized for 40+ yrs.
IOW, what was once formally forbidden is now easily allowed.

What most Catholics, like Brother JR, are saying is this:
The laws need to be changed again. It is our moral duty to make that happen.

Do you understand that?
I’m not being sarcastic.
I’m truly wondering if you understand that the laws need changing.

You seem to be so comfortable defending the legality of abortion.
It’s strange. It’s confusing. It’s unusual.
See-the silence is deafening.
 
Catholic politicians, judges, etc. need to follow the law. They are bound by the law. If they are in conflict with the law and their religious teachings, no matter what religion, they should step down.

I think that if a politician finds him or herself in conflict with the teachings of the Church and the wants and the needs of citizens who are not Catholic, and can’t consider the fact that these non-catholics don’t need to be forced to comply with Church teachings by changing laws to make it so, then they need to not be in that position. And I believe people consider these things when they vote.
No they shouldn’t.They can’t be Catholic parttime.They should ensure that voters understand EXACTLY where they stand on… abortion and Euthanasia and if elected act 100% Catholic-unlike certain pretend Catholic politicians in Canada and the USA.We don’t elect politicians to act as automotons bending to every breeze from the electorate.We elect politicians to act in our stead with hopefully wiser and more informed opinions than we,the hoi polloi

We have the technology right now for every citizen in North America to vote instantly on every new bioll that is to be voted upon.Why don’t we do that?Because the average voter doen’t know squat about the complexities of issyes.I want to know if a politician is a Catholic or an Athiest and if I vote for that person i expect her to act according to her principles not with one eye on reelection./A lot of Catholic and non-Catholic polititians are going to have a lot of ‘splainin’ to do Lucy,and I don’t think God is going to be too impessed.Somehow I don’t think He’ll be entertaining ANY backtalk or arguement.What one will hear is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

How do I know this?I take the teachings of the Body of Christ on earth seriously and am no cafeteria Catholic.But don’t listen to me talk to an orthodox Catholic priest.I don’t pretend to be a Prophet but we are sorely in need of one around here,but would anyone listen?
 
No they shouldn’t.They can’t be Catholic parttime.They should ensure that voters understand EXACTLY where they stand on… abortion and Euthanasia and if elected act 100% Catholic-unlike certain pretend Catholic politicians in Canada and the USA.We don’t elect politicians to act as automotons bending to every breeze from the electorate.We elect p[oliticians to act in our stead with hopefully wiser and more informed opinions than we,the hoi polloi
I heartily agree: policitians should indeed make voters understand exactly where they stand on these important issues so that voters can vote accordingly. 🙂
[/quote]
 
I heartily agree: policitians should indeed make voters understand exactly where they stand on these important issues so that voters can vote accordingly. 🙂
Rence, there you are - and you can clearly express your views.

So again, I ask you:
rence, I do wonder if you will respond to this, a copy of my Post 217.

"Rence, do you understand that the abortion laws are NEW.?
The nation’s been around 200+ yrs.
Abortion’s been legalized for 40+ yrs.
IOW, what was once formally forbidden is now easily allowed.

What most Catholics, like Brother JR, are saying is this:
The laws need to be changed again. It is our moral duty to make that happen.

Do you understand that?
I’m not being sarcastic.
I’m truly wondering if you understand that the laws need changing.

You seem to be so comfortable defending the legality of abortion.
It’s strange. It’s confusing. It’s unusual."
 
keep fighting the good fight on this one Catherina!! I am with you 100% 👍
 
Catholic politicians, judges, etc. need to follow the law. They are bound by the law. If they are in conflict with the law and their religious teachings, no matter what religion, they should step down.

I think that if a politician finds him or herself in conflict with the teachings of the Church and the wants and the needs of citizens who are not Catholic, and can’t consider the fact that these non-catholics don’t need to be forced to comply with Church teachings by changing laws to make it so, then they need to not be in that position. And I believe people consider these things when they vote.
Hiyas:)

Actually, by this logic…you condemn not only Catholics…Other Religious…BUT ANY / ALL with Moral convictions …Including Atheists. This logic put’s Mans law - OVER Moral convictions…

Do you see where this logic fails?
 
Be careful with voicing opposition as many people on these threads are of the opinion that if you waiver one tiny, itsy bitsy teenie weenie bit from what they hold to be true will attack, belittle and do their utmost to dehumanize you…just wait…they may be coming…maybe coming?..she is coming for you…:eek:…oh no…help us dear god…
 
Hiyas:)

Actually, by this logic…you condemn not only Catholics…Other Religious…BUT ANY / ALL with Moral convictions …Including Atheists. This logic put’s Mans law - OVER Moral convictions…

Do you see where this logic fails?
Hey Kimmie 🙂

No, I don’t. Because you made a claim but didn’t explain why. Also, there is a slight distinction between moral and religious convictions and I’ve listed a few examples throughout this thread. In addition, it’s not that I disapprove of others’ religious convictions, rather I recognize that not all of them are the same. And they don’t have to be. But, if one wants to hold office in a melting pot, one has to consider all the other religions and non-religous out there that they represent.
 
Hey Kimmie 🙂

No, I don’t. Because you made a claim but didn’t explain why.
Well to be void of any convictions Moral or otherwise…means you have computers running these offices / positions. And computers are programmed by…people with convictions.

We vote or appoint people based on their stated convictions…and expect them to stand for them.

Logic works both forward and backward.
 
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