What are the views of the Holy Orthodox Church on RCC approved Marian Apparitions?

[GaryTaylor]

But Gary, this sort of logic only confirms the beliefs of Roman Catholics, it doesn’t convince the rest of us who don’t accept the your church’s teachings at face value

What are you saying you have a Bias opinion just as YOUR hailed author has and states in her last sentence. So she is not only qualified she has her own emotional issues? Which apparently you do also.

And exactly what doesn’t fit in your SO DIFFERENT church thats doesn’t coincide with the 2000 years of THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH in ROME which btw built YOUR church 300+ years “later”.

As we already concluded God is not subjected to the Orthodox Chruch, Nor is it reality. Views are subjuct to same reality where-ever the occurence happens. Had the EO or Protestants had any desire to investigate, then they should have done so. The fact the CC did and has that evidence doesn’t distract from terrible Fast Google Search articles based on “speculation”. Which you added further speculation to as your defense. Now along with BIAS and the Mohammad

Again, you have not addressed the circular logic inherent to your argument. If I ask why the visionaries are saints, I would be told that the visions are proof of sainthood (i.e. the visions are legitimate, not a sign of delusion). If I asked how we know the visionaries are not delusional, I am told that it is because they are saints. .

Another foolish statement, as I have told you above which apparently you have selective reading limitations. They were diagnosed by Doctors and yes even at Lourdes. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

You haven’t even begun to refute the article.

She doesn’t have a medical degree to assess a medical condition. Its just that simple.

That is an extremely bold claim. Were it true, nearly every doctor in the world would subscribe to belief in the apparitions. .

Do you even think at ALL before you type? Why would nearly every Doctor in the world subscibe, believe or even care?

And did this “Byzantine” doctor have a doctorate degree as we know today?.

Whats the difference between a PHD then or now? Another riduculous statement Are you referring to new technology? And the mind evaluation has been the SLOWEST and barely changed.

Speaking of fruits, where are the mass conversions in Russia? The apparition at Fatima promised such a thing would occur when Russia was consecrated to her. Roman Catholics are still a very small minority…

Russia has converted back to Christianity by large since the fall of Communism. Who said anything about anyone converting to Catholicism? Ukraine has grown in Catholics, Perhaps when Russia removes it Moritorium on the Catholic Faith it will also grow.

Ah, but you misinterpreted my post. I did not mean to imply that the verse referred to any of the apparitions, but rather that not all [large] supernatural events come from God (an argument you previously made)…

Never said this another misrepresentation.

And that argument has no precedence in either Scripture or the Fathers. The antichrist will perform some of the most marvelous signs of all time, yet such things do not come from God…

Will perform, Will perfrom an ASSUMPTION you cannot place into an actual event. Three times I have showed this. Three times you have been unable to provide “one” which HAS happened. To the magnitide of Fatima

I am merely showing that your own logic.

Who is debating the Quran but you. Therefore its up to YOU to prove the basis of your circular agreement. I say its fiction. So do you have the Historians etc to prove it? The eyewitness’s, of course not. The burden of proof again falls on you. YOU bought up the artical, YOU bought up the Quran.

Listen to me clearly the lady has no leg to stand on to call anyone delusional. She is NOT QUALIFIED to do so. Its thats simple

Ok, but these things do not prove that the apparition as coming from God.

Really well if God states to YOU. Mark I"m gonna provide a miracle as never witnessed before on THIS DAY to confirm my message so all will know. And then is occurs with 70-Thousand who witness. I say the Mracle came from God. And as we see your logic doesn’t disprove it. MIne adds to its validity.

We Orthodox are largely indifferent to the conversions [to Roman Catholicism]. Because we do not believe it to be the true Faith, we do not find such evidence convincing. Healings occur across the world in different places and in different religions. It never proves anything, but merely shows that God is good and extends his mercy to those in need.

And that is a personal OPINION you and your author share which makes you and her OPINIONs Bias. Really that simple. Rome feels the same about your faith. Fortuate some of us have an open mind.

Rome insists BIble Matthew 16 clearly lays out the Church is built on St Peter, and 2000 years later its still there…and Pope Benedict sits in St Peters chair, in unbroken Apostolic Succession.

And because what you do not “believe” as evidence its convincing? Well let me show you how foolish this logic is. MOST did not “believe” the Giants would be Super Bowl Champions this year. And just how wrong was that in front of 70-Thousand.

Perhaps it would better say I DON’T KNOW because apparently you don’t.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Also, when establishing devotion, the Catholic Church does not base it on apparitions. Devotion like Sacred Heart or Divine Mercy was presented to the whole Church basing from Scripture teachings. That is why, someone may not believe the private revelation, but can pick up the devotion without problem.

But of course, the faithful sometimes does not always grasp the Church way of thinking and when this happened, these private revelations became a distraction or even idols to some degree…

I agree with you entire post and just want to add. Anything which is appoved MUST coincide with Sacred Scripture/Oral Tradition/Sacred writtings which the church believes to be true just are not part of canon.

Which is why even a event such a Garanandal was “Condemned”. It wasn’t because Supernatural did not occur. There were some profound events which occured there, were filmed, verified by many Theologians and PHDs. The church condemed it simply for this exact reason. I have the actual footage which was filmed, and everyone whom I showed the film to stated the exact same thing without hesitation…'It looks demonic" My wife got up and walked out and refused to watch it, she has no use for any apparition.

Problem with all these events as I have been saying is we have individuals who place the Devotion or Event above Bible/Eucharist/Prayer…Sanctifying Grace in Christ. Thats the daily goal. Bible/Eucharist/Prayer daily ensures that focus on Jesus Christ. Sanctifying Grace is the Lord within you, and a constant walk to Him in Heaven in that focus.

Its a major problem which I hope many who have been reading this thread are at least starting to see.

Listen I have no problem with the Rosary/St Mary as an aide to lead you to complete focus on JESUS CHRIST. In fact I believe She provides aide to those who struggle in this regard. I’ve seen it in my own life when I felt distracted and just couldn’t re-focus. But that focus is Jesus Christ crucified. It can be no other way.

When things get way off track, is when the speculation occurs which is that the Blessed Mother wants the EO to convert to Catholism and all this other misinformation. And this other apsect of deviation “replacing” Church in a incorrect form of worship. I have seen those who follow the devotion alone state this. I have never seen this stated by record of the events by the Church, and I have read just about everything in regards to Fatima, definately anything of importance, and have a great deal of it here.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

No, it is simply not a firm basis for faith, they are open to interpretation, and therefore any time someone comes along with a critique of the specific miracles, it becomes a direct attack on your faith. You need more than that. Miracles should only be used for personal encouragement.

Right, clarified, I agree. The miracles are for mankind. When man choose’s to close the door to Christ, the Lord opens a window which can be said gives mankind an ability to regain their sight and focus. That focus is Christ and the Church. The worship doesn’t become the event, if it re-focused mankind which often happens, Amen. If man is already rooted in faith than his direction is fine in his walk to the Lord.

 

[Marybeloved]

This is the second place I’ve encountered this idea that Fatima was about converting Christians in Russia. I think those who say so have not paid a lot of attention to the facts surrounding the Apparitions of Fatima and the 20th Century World History that revolve around them. The Virgin told the children in 1917, at the close of WWI, that Russia would spread grave errors to the World. Soon after or around the same time, unknown to the rural folk of Portugal, we know that the Tsars were violently overthrown and atheistic communism with its near destruction of the Orthodox Church in Russia began (Just read that that was when the first atheistic State in humanity was founded). A country/sub-continent that had been nearly 100% Christian for centuries became in few short decades, majority non-religious/non-practising. The only hint that that horrible period was about to begin was at fatima. And yes, Russia did indeed spread its errors of atheism and communism far and wide.

People forget that to the CC, this atheistic communism was seen as and called the greatest enemy of the church and even anti-Christ in much of the 20th century.

The consecration was made in the 1980’s by Blessed JPII after he recovered from the assassination attempt where circumstances conspired to convince him that he had been saved by the Virgin of Fatima. Soon after, in a very prophetic way, we know that this same Pope was centrally influential in the defeat of communism in Russia and Eastern Europe in a remarkable way beginning in Poland. For the first time the suppression of the Church in Russia came to an end, and the then majority atheistic/agnostic/non-practising population could worship God freely. 20 years later, the churches have risen back and are still rising.

I find it difficult to see how people interpret Fatima as not against the anti-Christian forces that decimated that sub-continent for decades, which forces were the publicly marked enemy per the Catholic Church throughout their 80-year control of that part of the World and instead conclude that Fatima rather was about the Orthodox church.

 

[adoglover1956]

How so? You mean distraction from faith?

I’ve got to ask the same question. The bible specifically says that certain miracles were recorded to strengthen faith or give convince you to have faith.

 

[adoglover1956]

This is the second place I’ve encountered this idea that Fatima was about converting Christians in Russia. I think those who say so have not paid a lot of attention to the facts surrounding the Apparitions of Fatima and the 20th Century World History that revolve around them. The Virgin told the children in 1917, at the close of WWI, that Russia would spread grave errors to the World. Soon after or around the same time, unknown to the rural folk of Portugal, we know that the Tsars were violently overthrown and atheistic communism with its near destruction of the Orthodox Church in Russia began (Just read that that was when the first atheistic State in humanity was founded). A country/sub-continent that had been nearly 100% Christian for centuries became in few short decades, majority non-religious/non-practising. The only hint that that horrible period was about to begin was at fatima. And yes, Russia did indeed spread its errors of atheism and communism far and wide.

People forget that to the CC, this atheistic communism was seen as and called the greatest enemy of the church and even anti-Christ in much of the 20th century.

The consecration was made in the 1980’s by Blessed JPII after he recovered from the assassination attempt where circumstances conspired to convince him that he had been saved by the Virgin of Fatima. Soon after, in a very prophetic way, we know that this same Pope was centrally influential in the defeat of communism in Russia and Eastern Europe in a remarkable way beginning in Poland. For the first time the suppression of the Church in Russia came to an end, and the then majority atheistic/agnostic/non-practising population could worship God freely. 20 years later, the churches have risen back and are still rising.

I find it difficult to see how people interpret Fatima as not against the anti-Christian forces that decimated that sub-continent for decades, which forces were the publicly marked enemy per the Catholic Church throughout their 80-year control of that part of the World and instead conclude that Fatima rather was about the Orthodox church.

I have in the past argued the same. It was conversion back to God…not particularly to the CC. Nowhere in Fatima is there a reference to conversion to the CC for the Orthodox.

 

[Marybeloved]

I have in the past argued the same. It was conversion back to God…not particularly to the CC. Nowhere in Fatima is there a reference to conversion to the CC for the Orthodox.

That’s right. In no approved apparition, have I ever seen any reference to the Orthodox at all, nor even Protestants.

Any conversion sought by the Virgin is always directed at pagans societies (Guadalupe) or regimes that are obviously (to the Catholic mind) Satanic and of the anti-Christ Spirit, such as the ones that ruled Rome at the time of the Martyrdoms of the first three centuries A.D and the Soviet Union for 80 years starting October 1917 (That timing ring any bells? ) as well as Rwanda (Our Lady of Kibeho). I don’t see any reason why Satan would warn of his own immensely evil works beforehand and then request prayers from Christians to God aimed at stopping these evil things. Nor do I see the point of converting human-sacrificing Aztecs to Christianity,by the millions through a symbolic image of the Mother of God (preaching in its symbolic Aztec imagery: One True God, Creator, born of a human mother and defeater of the Serpent), An image that remains an enigma to science even to the present time, with all our advanced technology.

Personally,I believe the Virgin has recently come to Zeitun as a strength, preparation and consolation to the Copts in view of the coming persecutions that are already beginning to be directed at them in Egypt. (Remember the woman of Revelations 12 and her children targeted by the dragon, enemy of her first-born). I also understand that Western Evangelical missionaries based in Egypt and the Middle-East, have recently been reporting a large surge of conversions from Muslims based solely on the apparition at the Church in Zeitoun.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have in the past argued the same. It was conversion back to God…not particularly to the CC. Nowhere in Fatima is there a reference to conversion to the CC for the Orthodox.

Right seems to be what many balk at which is understood. Prayer for the Conversion of Sinners was the underlying theme with the problem of communism, sexual immorality, which became an issue and in truth has spread much of its disregard for the Creator throughout the world. There has never in history been a period in Presidential history as the present where religion has been under attack as it now in the USA.

Indifference and outright disrespect for the Lord, Holy Family etc. The Apostolic Churchs have been in line with this since the early centuries. The path is correct worship, all which the Apostolic Churchs teach and have taught from day-one. Regardless of what matters are at odds these are not the issues.

"Throughout history there have been supernatural apparitions and signs which go to the heart of human events and which, to the surprise of believers and non-believers alike, play their part in the unfolding of history. These manifestations can never contradict the content of faith, and must therefore have their focus in the core of Christ’s proclamation: the Father’s love which leads men and women to conversion and bestows the grace required to abandon oneself to him with filial devotion. This too is the message of Fatima which, with its urgent call to conversion and penance, draws us to the heart of the Gospel.

The words of the First Letter of Peter come to mind: “As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls” (1:9). To reach this goal, the way indicated —surprisingly for people from the Anglo-Saxon and German cultural world—is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. A brief comment may suffice to explain this. In biblical language, the “heart” indicates the centre of human life, the point where reason, will, temperament and sensitivity converge, where the person finds his unity and his interior orientation. According to Matthew 5:8, the “immaculate heart” is a heart which, with God’s grace, has come to perfect interior unity and therefore “sees God”. To be “devoted” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means therefore to embrace this attitude of heart, which makes the fiat—“your will be done”—the defining centre of one’s whole life. It might be objected that we should not place a human being between ourselves and Christ. But then we remember that Paul did not hesitate to say to his communities: “imitate me” (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 1 Th 1:6; 2 Th 3:7, 9). In the Apostle they could see concretely what it meant to follow Christ. But from whom might we better learn in every age than from the Mother of the Lord?"

“To save souls” has emerged as the key word of the first and second parts of the “secret”, and the key word of this third part is the threefold cry: “Penance, Penance, Penance!” The beginning of the Gospel comes to mind: “Repent and believe the Good News” (Mk 1:15). To understand the signs of the times means to accept the urgency of penance – of conversion – of faith. This is the correct response to this moment of history, characterized by the grave perils outlined in the images that follow. Allow me to add here a personal recollection: in a conversation with me Sister Lucia said that it appeared ever more clearly to her that the purpose of all the apparitions was to help people to grow more and more in faith, hope and love—everything else was intended to lead to this."

Vatican web-sight

Of course theres a more in-depth interpretion on the sight. The problem is and continues to be the misinformation age of technology and fast google sights. The Pope is not the anti-christ, goddess is complete folly and the Apostolic teaching correctly understood IS the path. Obviously we have individuals in all these Churchs who simply do not understand the teachings correctly, or flat out chose to allude to their own understanding of what they believe the teachings are.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s right. In no approved apparition, have I ever seen any reference to the Orthodox at all, nor even Protestants.

Any conversion sought by the Virgin is always directed at pagans societies (Guadalupe) or regimes that are obviously (to the Catholic mind) Satanic and of the anti-Christ Spirit, such as the ones that ruled Rome at the time of the Martyrdoms of the first three centuries A.D and the Soviet Union for 80 years starting October 1917 (That timing ring any bells? ) as well as Rwanda (Our Lady of Kibeho). I don’t see any reason why Satan would warn of his own immensely evil works beforehand and then request prayers from Christians to God aimed at stopping these evil things. Nor do I see the point of converting human-sacrificing Aztecs to Christianity,by the millions through a symbolic image of the Mother of God (preaching in its symbolic Aztec imagery: One True God, Creator, born of a human mother and defeater of the Serpent), An image that remains an enigma to science even to the present time, with all our advanced technology.

Personally,I believe the Virgin has recently come to Zeitun as a strength, preparation and consolation to the Copts in view of the coming persecutions that are already beginning to be directed at them in Egypt. (Remember the woman of Revelations 12 and her children targeted by the dragon, enemy of her first-born). I also understand that Western Evangelical missionaries based in Egypt and the Middle-East, have recently been reporting a large surge of conversions from Muslims based solely on the apparition at the Church in Zeitoun.

I believe so also. Zeitoun we seen much healing and converstion but for a long time the logic was not understood. Their we see a appartion of The Blessed Mother, blessing the church, surrounded by Doves representing the Holy Spirit. And now, today many martyrs, and the understanding of the Blessing. The Coptic Church in the spiritual/mystical has always regarded St Mary as the Gate, which is correctly explained above by the Vatican. Not hard to witness when you view the interior of their churchs and in particular in Egypt.

Peace

 

[jdnation]

Once again I’m reading many claiming that the Consecration of Russia was done and that the third secret refers to the assassination attempt on John Paul II.

This is false. But it’s understandable why many believe this because there has beena great campaign of deception to make it this way.

John Paul II didn’t believe he’d ever managed to fulfill Our Lady of Fatima’s request to consecrate Russia, which he attempted desperately to do several times, which is why even after the 84 consecration he prayed to her for the people who still awaiting our consecration to her.

Pope Benedict XVI as recently as 2010 purposely contradicted the official Vatican stance saying in an interview to Fatima that the 3rd secret was abotu the sufferings of the Church and the enemy within, that could only ‘of substance’ be referring to the assassination attempt on John Paul II if you wished to interpret it that way, and that the secret alluded to future events and even the present sex abuse scandal. Benedict did so in complete purposeful contradiction to teh Vatican Secretary of State’s personal interpretation about the secret only being involved with teh assassination attempt of John Paul II, something neither John Paul II took seriously, as it turns out this is only the Vatican Secretary of State’s interpretation that he tried to decievingly impose on the faithful as the Church’s official stance. Benedict this this at a time knowingly when the Italian press were in a tizzy over the release of Antonio Socci’s book ‘The 4th Secret of Fatima’ that exposes the Church didn’t reveal the entire 3rd secret.

The Consecration of Russia was never done because Russia was never the object of the consecration, nor even mentioned by name. Only consecrations to the world have been done. Also the Bishops of the world were to participate in solidarity with the Pope to also perform the consecration. The bishops of the world ignored it, and ignored the Holy Father, and the entire Catholic Church is in a state of spiritual schism against the Pope’s authority and against orthodoxy.

There has been great efforts on the part of modernists and even communists within the Church who since Vatican II (whih was when the 3rd secret was supposed to be revealed prior, but censored), have been trying to reorient the Church, spread liberalism, dumb down the sacrifice of the Mass, and undermine the faith. Fatima and the 3rd Secret and the Consecration of Russia all stood in the way of their goals, so they have made great attempts to suppress it and leave it buried in the past, something Pope Benedict XVI has spoken against saying that anyone who believes Fatima is over commits self-deception.

Russia continues to build militarily, they’ve begun their bigest spending since the Cold War Era. Talks with the U.S. have broken down, and now research and development has begun on new ICBMs. The situation over Iran is of further concern. Russia is in a grave state of population decline due to abortion and contraception. Catholicsm is virtually non-existent in Russia and its numbers today are no different than what they were before Fatima. There are concerns about Putin continuing to hold power and the rigging of elections and government there. The errors of Communism are alive and well and have spread and control Western Democracies: feminism, abortion, contraception, anti-Catholicism, moral relativity, growing and blatant atheism, the reducing of religion and religious displays and public religion in public, more dependence on government socialism, corporatism, anti-capitalism etc. None of these are fruits of the consecration of Russia.

When Portugal was consecrated, the nation overthrew its socialist regime and became a country enshrined in Catholic morality. When Our Lady appeared in guadalupe, many natives were miraculously converted by the masses! At Lourdes there were conversions, at Fatima there were conversions even before Portugal’s consecration. Fatima itself is named after a Muslim princess named after Mohammed’s daughter. She was captured by Christian forces, but later converted to Catholicism, taking the name Oureana, and married the Count of Ourem. Conversion is the point! God cares about His Church, not the false religions or schismatics or the politics of secular states. God does not compromise the faith like we do on Earth for the sake of false ecumenism. He came and DIED for it!

When Christ gave a message to King Louis XIV of France to, together with his entire court, consecrate the nation of France to His Sacred Heart and put the emblem on its flag. The King, who was at the height of the monarch’s splendor, known as the ‘Sun King’ didn’t pay any attention. He and his successors didn’t bother, thinking they could ignore Christ’s command. 100 years later to the day, the French Revolution sparked off. King Louis XVI was beheaded as a criminal. The Church was persecuted. Many died and suffered at the hands of these enlightened humanists. When Christ appeared to Sr. Lucia, he issued the same warning to the Pope and Bishops fo the Catholic Church that if they further proceeded to ignore His COMMAND, to consecrate Russia, they will follow the example fo the King of France and suffer like him.

 

[jdnation]

If we are to avoid great disaster in the future, the Pope must use his divine authority to command the world’s bishops under the pain of excommunication to obey Him in consecrating Russia, and Russia alone, to Mary’s Immaculate Heart. Check you Bible and see what happens when human beings think they can tell God how to do what He asked for better according to human terms instead of humbling themselves to GOd and His ways.

Once we do, the result will be the conversion of the people of Russia to Catholicism, and the reunification of the Russian Orthodox and Catholic Church. And this will send a strong message to the secular world that God exists and that Catholicism is the true religion, just as the spectacular miracle of the Sun did! So please I urge you to support Pope Benedict XVI and John Paul II’s wishes to fight against the enemy within the Church and to fight against the errors of Communism that prevail everywhere, and petition them to once and for all clearly perform the Consecration of Russia alone in a simple ceremony with the world’s bishops under the Pope’s command in clear non-vague language of ‘let your yes mean yes and your no mean no’, ‘say the black do the red’, strong precise language without deviation to Mary’s Immaculate Heart.

There’s a reason for all this! And it’s because Russia is the origin of the ideological errors that govern the world, and will be a great danger in the future; and because Mary is the known representative of Catholicism to many Christians, and she is a champion and protector of the priests and of orthodoxy that both so desperately need to be reinforced. And it is to her whom Christ wishes to further establish great devotion in order to save billions of souls through her intercession and devotion to her!

Start becoming aware of the facts of Fatima, and start fighting for your Church! For you are the Church militant! Fatima is not some mere ‘private revelation’ you can ignore, for you ignore it to your own peril.
“You have seen Hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them God wants to establish throughout the world the devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If people will do what I tell you, many souls will be saved, and there will be peace.
The war is going to end. But if they do not stop offending God, another and worse war will break out in the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that it is the great sign that God gives you, that He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, hunger, persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.
To forestall this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If they heed My requests, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace.
If not, she shall spread her errors throughout the world, promoting wars and persecutions of the Church; the good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated; in the end, My Immaculate Heart shall triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, which will be converted, and some time of peace will be given to the world.”

• Our Lady of Fatima, after the vision of Hell to Lucia, July 13, 1917
  “Make it known to my ministers, given they follow the example of the King of France in delaying My command (to consecrate Russia), like him (like the King of France) they will follow him into misfortune.”
  - Jesus Christ to Sr. Lucia, in Rianjo, Spain, 1931.

“Beyond the great vision of the suffering of the Pope, which we can in substance refer to John Paul II, are indicated future realities of the Church which are little by little developing and revealing themselves. Thus, it is true that beyond the moment indicated in the vision, it is spoken, it is seen, the necessity of a passion of the Church that naturally is reflected in the person of the Pope; but the Pope is in the Church, and therefore the sufferings of the Church are what is announced… As for the novelty that we can discover today in this message, it is that attacks on the Pope and the Church do not come only from outside, but the sufferings of the Church come precisely from within the Church, from sins that exist in the Church. This has always been known, but today we see it in a really terrifying way: that the greatest persecution of the Church does not come from enemies outside, but arises from sin in the Church.”

“One would be deceiving himself who thinks that the prophetic mission of Fatima is concluded.” *
-* Pope Benedict XVI on May 11th and May 13th 2010**
Archbishop Fulton J Sheen on Fatima (3 parts)
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5t7q4TEE3Qk
youtube.com/watch?v=Y0HtHm1ApMI&feature=player_embedded
youtube.com/watch?v=zG70IqJlQyE&feature=player_embedded

A simple request denied by the Vatican
youtube.com/watch?v=vK6j6AnfkV4&feature=player_embedded

Fatima Message imposes an obligation on Popes, Bishops, etc.
consecrationnow.com/index.php?Itemid=8&catid=18&id=61%3Athe-fatima-message-imposes-an-obligation-on-the-popes-bishops-a-church&option=com_content&view=article

Documentary on Lenin and Russian revolution
youtube.com/watch?v=JmZeDoOVsF0&feature=player_embedded

Clip from movie ‘13th Day’ on the prophecy
youtube.com/watch?v=Y02cuIWhr_s&feature=player_embedded

 

[Marybeloved]

O brother… Here we go again

 

[GaryTaylor]

O brother… Here we go again

Yup

 

[GaryTaylor]

Again, you have not addressed the circular logic inherent to your argument.

No sense in going round and round with this Mark. No offense mean’t. The simple basis to my argument is that the author arbitrarily promoted a few ideas, and I arbitararily denied them.

In other words their’s no evidence to support her claims. But I have to give it to you, you tried hard to supply some for her.

Peace

 

[Merrin]

Traditionally the Orthodox take a dim view of speaking apparitions and messages from beyond, and I personally feel the same way. This would most especially be the case for something that erupts from outside the church.

Yes, that appears to be the only logical and safe position for the Orthodox, as well as all other non-Catholics, to hold.

For if the Orthodox and other non-Catholics believed any of these apparitions and messages, such as at Fatima and Lourdes, then they would have to concede that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are indeed true and have been ratified by God in heaven.

So it is much easier for the Orthodox to dismiss the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and the authority of the Papacy, that were spoken of in these apparitions, as fantasy. Because if they did believe any of it, the logical thing for them to do would be to convert.

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, that appears to be the only logical and safe position for the Orthodox, as well as all other non-Catholics, to hold.

For if the Orthodox and other non-Catholics believed any of these apparitions and messages, such as at Fatima and Lourdes, then they would have to concede that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are indeed true and have been ratified by God in heaven.

So it is much easier for the Orthodox to dismiss the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and the authority of the Papacy, that were spoken of in these apparitions, as fantasy. Because if they did believe any of it, the logical thing for them to do would be to convert.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, no matter how you arrive at it. But if one’s faith is based upon apparitions which speak, one is building on sand.

You can keep your novel doctrines, I will stick with the received faith.

 

[Alfonsus]

The problem is we cannot make miracles and private revelation as political play.
The Catholic position is well established, since private revelation bounds no one, it cannot be used for such claims. She even said that a Catholic not bound to believe any of private revelation.

God makes miracles and showers private revelation here and there.
Eucharistic miracles? You find it recorded in the Catholic Church and non-Catholic Church.
Myrrh/blood streaming icons/statues? You find it happened in the Catholic Church and non-Catholic Church.
Private revelation/apparition of Our Lord and Saints? You find it happened in the Catholic Church and non-Catholic Church also.
Incorrupt saints? Yes, it happened outside the Catholic Church also. St. John of Shanghai of the Orthodox Church is incorrupt for instance.

The Orthodox have enough miracles to “prove” they are right.

It is only by the grace of God, most of our Bishops are sane enough not to enter this parading of miracles for proofing, since doing so they do disservice to the official teachings of the Church (yes, Catholic and Orthodox alike) never to base doctrine based on private revelations.

But it always amaze me, how most of us become a higher magisterium than the Church regarding private revelations…

 

[Merrin]

The Catholic position is well established, since private revelation bounds no one, it cannot be used for such claims. She even said that a Catholic not bound to believe any of private revelation.

Right. Catholics are only obliged to assent to Catholic doctrine. And the approved private revelation at Lourdes and Fatima affirm Catholic doctrine.

It is only by the grace of God, most of our Bishops are sane enough not to enter this parading of miracles for proofing, since doing so they do disservice to the official teachings of the Church (yes, Catholic and Orthodox alike) never to base doctrine based on private revelations.

Catholic doctrine remains firm, whether there is private revelation or not. Catholic doctrine in the case of Lourdes and Fatima has only been enhanced and affirmed by private revelation.

 

[Marybeloved]

Yes, that appears to be the only logical and safe position for the Orthodox, as well as all other non-Catholics, to hold.

For if the Orthodox and other non-Catholics believed any of these apparitions and messages, such as at Fatima and Lourdes, then they would have to concede that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are indeed true and have been ratified by God in heaven.

So it is much easier for the Orthodox to dismiss the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and the authority of the Papacy, that were spoken of in these apparitions, as fantasy. Because if they did believe any of it, the logical thing for them to do would be to convert.

Which apparition confirmed the papacy? I thought Fatima only warned of a type of persecution of the Pope in the future?

 

[Marybeloved]

You are entitled to your opinion of course, no matter how you arrive at it. But if one’s faith is based upon apparitions which speak, one is building on sand.

Your statement is true of ANY apparition-not just those that speak.