B
Benu2007
Guest
Tell me this. Is the Holy Spirit given to a few or to all who beleive?
- Status
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
you mean that the HS is given to all so all can interpret the Scriptures?
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
The Holy Spriit brought the Kingdom of God to life. The Kingdom of God is the Church. Hence it is to the Church that the words of the Scripture was given for its life in redeeming the world. It is to the Church that the Holy Spirit is given enabling the Church to interpreter her own Scripture.
CDL
CDL
B
Benu2007
Guest
The Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh. Joel 2:28-29. Notice what Jesus says when talking to the apostles about the Holy Spirit.
15 “If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. 18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?”
23 Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me. 25 I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26 But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.
The Holy Spirit is given to all who love God. The Spirit lives within all of us if we love God. And His role is a Helper and to teach. I know you will say that the last part was Jesus just talking about the deciples since how could we be reminded of something if we weren’t there. However if that was the case then no one today could teach since no one was there. The Holy Spirit teaches us. Besides its not even hard to read the bible anyway. The key is to take it at face value. What is so hard to follow about the passage I gave you anyway. Maybe having bibles that weren’t in old English would be a lot easier to follow.
Also reciepiants of the epistles that Paul wrote for example could obviously understand what Paul was saying because otherwise Paul would not have written to them.
Again the Apostles used scripture to prove that Jesus was the Christ. If the people weren’t able to understand the scriptures then how could have they have used it to prove Jesus was the Christ? For example if a 10 year old does not believe Neptune exists, then proving it to him using advanced calculus that he will not understand is not going to help convince him. This is because calculus is meaningless to him because he can’t understand it. A picture of Neptune, which he can understand, will be much better in helping him believe.
Look at it this way. If you can’t understand what I’ve just said. Then you’re not going to believe that the scriptures are for all to understand. However if you do then you will at least be able to think about what I’ve said.
B
Benu2007
Guest
You are right as we are all part of the Church. Being part of the Church we can all interpret scripture.
B
Benu2007
Guest
No it wasn’t. This is a view that liberal secular scolars have to try and demerit the Bible. Think about it. If it was by oral tradition then it wouldn’t have been written by prophets and have no or very little devine inspiration.
B
Benu2007
Guest
Look Peter was certainly one of the leaders of the Church. Peter, James and John were signalled out by Paul as being the Pillars of the Church. However look what Paul also says about Peter.
Galations 2:6-10
6 And the leaders of the church had nothing to add to what I was preaching. (By the way, their reputation as great leaders made no difference to me, for God has no favorites.) 7 Instead, they saw that God had given me the responsibility of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as he had given Peter the responsibility of preaching to the Jews. 8 For the same God who worked through Peter as the apostle to the Jews also worked through me as the apostle to the Gentiles.
9 In fact, James, Peter,[a] and John, who were known as pillars of the church, recognized the gift God had given me, and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers. They encouraged us to keep preaching to the Gentiles, while they continued their work with the Jews. 10 Their only suggestion was that we keep on helping the poor, which I have always been eager to do.
Since you are so eager to take a human leader then by this scripture you should be taking Paul as he was the apostle to the Gentiles. Of course we shouldn’t do this either as Christ is our Head. But I just thought I would point that out.
B
Benu2007
Guest
The biggest problem with people putting all the emphasis on Peter was that he was only human. He preached the gospel like all other apostles. Sure he was a leader among the apostles. Every organisation needs leaders thats why churches have pasters, ministers or priests, whatever you want to call them. But the point is, in the gospels there is a Man of much greater importance. He is Jesus Christ. It’s because of Him that we are set free. Peter’s role was to preach and teach but Christ was our Creater and Redeemer. He gives us power to do things we could not otherwise do. Without Him Peter would be nothing. Peter was all he was because Christ saw him as a good man to work through. Plus Peter is dead but Christ is alive. By continually talking about Peter you’re taking the emphasis of Christ. Remember without Peter there were still others to build the Church. Without Christ there is no Church. It’s not that we don’t think Peter was an awesome man of God. It’s just that Christ is our centre of attention.
I
ibkc
Guest
I hereby invite you to any celebration of the Mass. There you will see that Christ is our center of attention, as well.
Peter does not come up in the course of the Mass unless he happens to figure in one of the scriptural readings for the day. And the absolute center of our worship, for all the centuries, is the celebration of the Eucharist: the precious Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. It does not get any more Christ-centered than that.
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
Your posts are consistently silly. I guess there is something to be said for consistency.
CDL
B
Benu2007
Guest
Yeah I believe that. That’s good. It’s just the amount of talk of Peter and in particular Mary that has gone on in this forum is why I made that post.I hereby invite you to any celebration of the Mass. There you will see that Christ is our center of attention, as well.
B
Benu2007
Guest
Again you haven’t said how or why I’m wrong you just said that I am. If you have some kind of great inside knowledge on this stuff then please share it.
However in saying what I was saying in my posts before answer me this. Where is it that we get our wisdom and understanding from?
Ephesians 1:16-17
16 I have not stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly, 17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God.
This verse says that it is God that gives us wisdom. However just as importantly Paul is praying it for everyone in the Church in Ephesus. That means that he fully believed that wisdom and knowledge on the things of God were for everyone.
Now I now what your reply will be. So instead of simply calling me stupid explain to me why I’m wrong. If you think I’ve taken this verse out of context and that’s not what it means at all then tell me what it does mean and explain how.
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
It’s impossible to keep up with your errors. The number in the hundreds by now on just this thread. I try to slow you down to analyze but you pay no attention to what anyone says. You have your own insular world and no one else gets in. Take one point and I’ll gladly help you analyze it. Don’t just string a bunch of assertions together. Take just one point. Say something like “this is what I’ve heard to be true about the Catholic Church.” Then ask “Is this true? If so, why? If not, then what is true?”
Try that approach and you will get much further. Unless you are only here to flame or if you are simply a troll.
CDL
B
Benu2007
Guest
I only asked you one question in my last post and I gave you a verse. You could have answered that but you can’t. So instead you try to mock me. Go back to my last post and answer what I asked. And this time don’t just come up with some dumb excuse like I know nothing therefore you shouldn’t have to answer me. Everyone else in this forum has been able to answer what I say.
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
I assume that you are referring to this. St. Paul went to Jerusalem for his ordination and commission or at least for it to be confirmed by St. Peter and the Apostles. He was therefore a Catholic. He did not start a new religion. Therefore, God gave wisdom to Him as a part of the Church not as a part of a new religion. From what you have been posting for sometime you are part of a different religion. You have not named it but from what you have said it is not the same religion as the Apostles and Saints. I don’t think you are stupid. I think you have expressed yourself quite well. You are a mamber of another religion. We get it. Nevertheless, I encourage you to abandon this new religion and become a Catholic Christian. The same religion that Jesus Christ founded and gave leadership to St. Peter and the Apostles.
CDL
I
ibkc
Guest
Benu2007,
In your last post to Gregory you said:
Are you simply saying here that our wisdom in these matters comes from God? That’s not something Catholics would disagree with, as far as I can say.
If you want this bit of scripture to support a larger point that I am missing, could you explain what that is?
B
Benu2007
Guest
I wasn’t takking anything about this in my post. What I was saying was that Paul believed that everyone could have knowledge and understanding about God and that it’s not just left for a few to interpret. He wouldn’t have prayed for it otherwise.
As for your idea about me belonging to part of a different religion. I am a Christian. If what you are is different to that then I agree that we are of different religions. However the Bible clearly says that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. The bible clearly says that it is by faith in Christ that we are saved. I have placed my faith in Christ. That is I believe He died and rose again and will raise me from the dead on the last day and I have turned from trying to satisfy my sinful nature (lusts of the flesh, read Galations 5:16-26). I am saved because of that. Paul knew that he didn’t have to be recognised by Peter because Christ had already called him. But he wanted to make sure that they were all in agreement. In fact it wasn’t until after 3 years that Paul visited Peter in Jerusalem to visit Peter.
Please read the story in Galations 5 1:11-2:21.
B
Benu2007
Guest
Yes, I am saying that it is God who gives us understanding when we read the scriptures. But I also wanted to point out from that verse that Paul was praying for everyone, not just the leaders, to recieve knowledge and understanding about God. This means that he fully believed that knowledge and understanding was for everyone to receive. Not just for the leaders in the Church to interpret what the Bible says. If there is any interpretation needed it is the Holy Spirit not a priest or the pope. That doesn’t mean that leaders in the Church can’t teach, they should. It just means that people should be able to see for themselves, because of the Holy Spirit, what scripture means. Therefore everyone has the obligation to examine, through scripture, what there teacher is saying.Benu2007,
In your last post to Gregory you said:
Are you simply saying here that our wisdom in these matters comes from God? That’s not something Catholics would disagree with, as far as I can say.
Acts 17:11. “And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.”
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
A whole string of silly interpretations once again. This is exhausting and incredible. He didn’t pray that everyone could interpret Scripture any way they wished. He didn’t say that people could ignore the Church Christ came to establish. St. Paul didn’t do any ministry until after he visited St. Peter in Jerusalem. I brought that point up. What are you suggesting that could possibly be contrary to what I’ve already said? It’s difficult to know what chapters and verses you wish to be read. Are you trying to suggest that Catholics are really after 2000 years being exposed as Judaizers? Your approach is too scattered to make much sense. Come home. Recenter yourself upon Chrsit. BTW I’m glad that you have begun to straighten out your life. This is good. Now come home to Christ’s Church.
CDL
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
I’m sorry that you don’t believe that Christ established His Church and that the Holy Spirit runs it quite nicely.
CDL
- Status