We’re all gnats until God makes us saints. Any religion or interpretation that denies Scriptures as yours does is false and can lead to hell. Repent and be made whole. Leave this false religion of yours and come home to God and His Church.You know people made her a saint. Not God. What she say’s goes against scripture. Either scripture is wrong or she is. Which one? You haven’t given any scripture that backs up what you have said. You have tried using tradition and what mankind have said throughout the ages. But these have been shown to be wrong when compared to scripture.
Benu, I think we’re arguing past each other at this point. Catholics do not believe that the Bible is the final authority on everything, so I cannot accept your premise that something isn’t valid unless it is explicitly laid out in scripture. If I cannot accept your premise, I cannot accept your conclusions. Even going by your rules - scripture alone - I find many of your conclusions to be baffling, because even when something IS explicitly laid out in Scripture, you tie yourself up in knots trying to find an interpretation that ISN’T the catholic interpretation. It’s frustrating.Baptism is important but it is no good if we don’t have faith. Otherwise it is just us getting wet. It simbolises that we have died to this world and have been raised a new in Christ. But it is not essecential to eternal life as my passaged showed.
Dosdog gave some verses but if you read my posts then you will see that they offer no evidence for Purgatory. They were just verses. You need look up what people actually say than just look at the fact that they have a big list of verses.
The problem is not that it goes against scripture. The problem is that it goes against your interpretation of scripture, and that makes you uncomfortable so you deny it, just like Martin Luther. That isn’t the way to understand scripture. The way to understand scripture is to take it all into account, let go of pride and certainty that your way is the only way, and let the Holy Spirit into your heart.I showed you how it went against scripture. Answer me how it’s still valid if it does that.
If your faith doesn’t produce works and righteous living then of course it’s dead. But don’t you see, works and righteous living are the fruit of when you place your faith in Christ (Matthew 5:15-20; Galations 5:22-23). But you are not saved by the works you do, they just show that you actually have faith. Answer this Ephesians 2:8-9“do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren?” James 2:20
ha ha, that has to be one of my favorite verses in the bible.
Dude since I believe that Christ rose from the dead and live my life for Him then how am I not part of the Church?Since Christ’s sacrifice is to make us pure then let Him make your life pure. Stop “kicking against the pricks” (Acts 9, KJV) and come home to God and His Church.
CDL
Again you haven’t looked at what I said. 2 Maccabees was in direct conflict with the rest of scripture. Read over how I showed that because I am not going to go over again.Your ideas aren’t scripture. Only Scripture is scripture. No sane person would choose to follow your ideas over Scripture. Leave your foolish and destructive ways lest they lead you to a real hell and come home to God and His Church.
CDL
What are the damning ideas that I have. What do you really have a problem with. Is it just that I am not a Catholic?You have not shown any such thing. All you have shown is that you have created a new fangled religion in your image which does in fact teach falsely. Leave those damning ideas and come home to God and His Church.
CDL
Show me in the bible a scripture that backs this up.There are sins that can only be cleansed by fire and some not in this life. ICDL
I have used more scripture here than anyone else in this forum. And from more than one place too, to back up what I am saying. Most of the verses I show you, you never comment on. You take one small bit that I say and argue against that. I put up so much commentry on the verses posted yesterday by Desdog but no one has commented on anything I said using scripture to back up what they were saying. It’s impossible to have a debate with you guys because you are so closed minded and blind. You follow everything that the leaders in your church say that when someone else comes a long you shove what they have to say aside. Not because what they said was wrong but because it goes against what your leaders have told you.We’re all gnats until God makes us saints. Any religion or interpretation that denies Scriptures as yours does is false and can lead to hell. Repent and be made whole. Leave this false religion of yours and come home to God and His Church.
CDL
Books like 2 Maccabees were not in the Hebrew cannon however I think they were in the Greek one. They were written after the period that the prophets were in and at a time when Greek culture was having an influence. Hence ideas like praying for the dead begin to appear. There are even places in the apocrypha which talk of the fact that the prophets have ceased, meaning that scripture during the period of the apocrypha were not inspired. The Hebrew scriptures have same books as the protestant Old testament just a fewer number because some books are combined (e.g. the 12 minor prophets are combined into one book) Josephus, a Jewish historian in the first century A.D. says that the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) are only 22 in number. This would agree with the protestant Bible (Because some books, such as the prophets were grouped together) but not with the Catholic Old Testament.Benu,
You mentioned earlier that Maccabees isn’t inspired. If you hold that view, it invalidates all of the bible as being inspired. All of the deuterocannonicals were in the cannon from the time it was ratified around 400. There are about 6000 bibles around the world that are still in existence that were written before the reformation. Every single one of them has the deuterocannonicals in the cannon. There has never been a bible found before the reformation that didn’t have them. They are inspired. Luther kicked them out, because they didn’t agree with his teachings. The same reason why he kicked James out, and later added it back because all of his buddies finally convinced him to.
Can you tell us (either in this thread or a new thread) what exactly do you not agree with Saint Thomas Aquinas? Why is it you do not agree with a canonised saint’s writings, which certainly must be inspiried by God like the books of the New Testament? I think you should read up more about Catholicism, for Catholicism is Christianity. Being Protestant in particular Anglikanism cannot not fulfil your spirituality as it is like being an Atheist, an Agnostic, or a Free Thinker.What do you mean by a crutch?
I’ve recently started reading Thomas Aquinas. I don’t agree with everything he siad but believe he said a lot of thingds that are very relevant for us today.
While it is true that Josephus rejected the deuterocanonicals, his opposition was political in nature. Your other history is very bad here. The deuterocanonical books are not “Greek.” They are written in Greek, but they were not written by Greeks. Also there is evidence that some of them were originally written in Hebrew, but the original texts are lost. Greek was the universal language of scholarship at the time, much as Latin was during the Middle Ages. The bit you’re trying to pawn off as a Greek custom refers to a Jewish custom. It was not a Christian custom because Maccabees predates Christ by a couple of hundred years or so. But what it shows is that these customs existed among the Jewish people long before Christ, and therefore was part of the culture that gave rise to Christianity and was something practiced by early Christians.Books like 2 Maccabees were not in the Hebrew cannon however I think they were in the Greek one. They were written after the period that the prophets were in and at a time when Greek culture was having an influence. Hence ideas like praying for the dead begin to appear. There are even places in the apocrypha which talk of the fact that the prophets have ceased, meaning that scripture during the period of the apocrypha were not inspired. The Hebrew scriptures have same books as the protestant Old testament just a fewer number because some books are combined (e.g. the 12 minor prophets are combined into one book) Josephus, a Jewish historian in the first century A.D. says that the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) are only 22 in number. This would agree with the protestant Bible (Because some books, such as the prophets were grouped together) but not with the Catholic Old Testament.
But the main problem is what I said earlier. Prayers for the dead to receive salvation go against the rest of scripture. The Bible clearly says that it is when you believe that you are saved. So other people can play no other part on your behalf. The bit in 2 Maccabees is more of a Greek custom. But it was not a Christian one.
You know people are gods, scriptures tell us. I do not have the exact verse but somewhere in the Old Testament, Moses the prophet is called “elohim” (which is translated as “god”). So, you should also know that the Church is God as it is made up of gods, and so, there is nothing wrong for Christians to say “God canonised her as a saint”. Collective voice of humans is the voice of God.You know people made her a saint. Not God.
I cannot answer this question until you tell me, what version of scripture are you using? Is it NIV, KJV, RSV, NRSV, NET, World English Bible or some other Bible text?Either scripture is wrong or she is. Which one?
Yes I have heard of that scripture. Jesus Himself quotes it. But if you argue that way and we are all gods then how can we be arguing?You know people are gods, scriptures tell us. I do not have the exact verse but somewhere in the Old Testament, Moses the prophet is called “elohim” (which is translated as “god”). So, you should also know that the Church is God as it is made up of gods, and so, there is nothing wrong for Christians to say “God canonised her as a saint”. Collective voice of humans is the voice of God.
I cannot answer this question until you tell me, what version of scripture are you using? Is it NIV, KJV, RSV, NRSV, NET, World English Bible or some other Bible text?
Benu - it says “if we confess our sins.” When was the last time you confessed?I am using the New Living Translation (NLT) but also compare verses with the NIV and NKJV. They all say the same thing. For example lets look at what they say for 1 John 1:9. which shows us that Christ makes us fully righteous. Therefore we don’t need purgatory.
But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. NLT
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. NIV
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. NKJV
If you’re trying to tell me that different versions say different things then you are mistaken. They all say the same thing. That Christ cleanses from all unrighteous. Therefore there are no mortal sins and there is no need for purgatory. Do you follow me from this verse? I will give you other verses to show you that different translations say the same thing although they may use different words. I use the NLT because it is very clear, easy to follow and and accurate.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. NASB
If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. Amplified Bible
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. KJV
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ESV
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ASV
I hope that this shows you that no matter what version of the Bible you use. It says the same thing. Again these all say that Christ cleanses us from everything. So there are no mortal sins and no need for purgatory.
How was his opposition political?While it is true that Josephus rejected the deuterocanonicals, his opposition was political in nature. Your other history is very bad here. The deuterocanonical books are not “Greek.” They are written in Greek, but they were not written by Greeks. Also there is evidence that some of them were originally written in Hebrew, but the original texts are lost. Greek was the universal language of scholarship at the time, much as Latin was during the Middle Ages. The bit you’re trying to pawn off as a Greek custom refers to a Jewish custom. It was not a Christian custom because Maccabees predates Christ by a couple of hundred years or so. But what it shows is that these customs existed among the Jewish people long before Christ, and therefore was part of the culture that gave rise to Christianity and was something practiced by early Christians.
The Septuagint was in use at the time of Christ, and it was the scriptures that Christ and the Apostles knew and used. When you reject the deuterocanonicals, you reject part of the basis of what Christ taught.
Thank God for the New Covenant.How was his opposition political?
I didn’t say the apocrypha was Greek or written by Greeks. I said as you say “they were in Greek”. The point I was trying to make was that Greek culture began to influence the Jews from about the time of Alexander the Great onwards. Thats why you see things like prayers for the dead which you never see in any of the earlier books like Kings or Joshua. In fact if it was important than you would certainly see it in the law. As that seems to go through in minute detail every part of life and death. Never do you see prayers offered to the dead. So yes it was part of Jewish custom before Christ, but only when Greek influence came along.