What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[ndmoharo]

I don’t have an issue with priests who are gay as long as they still abide by the Church teachings.

A celibate priest is supposed to be celibate no matter his passions

 

[Gab123]

If a person fails to be chaste once or twice, or thirty times, they just need to get up and seek chastity one more time, through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, though if one keeps committing the same mortal sins over and over it is a sign. If a man keeps committing adultery 30 times after he’s found the truth of Christ, it doesn’t sound like he’s had a a serious conversion, and runs the risk of inviting more diabolical beings into his life. All sins are personal beings; demons of gluttony, demons of adultery, demons of homosexuality, demons of pride, etc; when we sin they attach to us and we become their slaves. Thus the power of the sacrament of confession as an exorcism.

“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them…” -2 Peter 2: 20-22

“The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there. Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” -John 5:13-14

“Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

. . . The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.”-1 Cor 6:9-20

“If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:6-10

 

[catholic1seeks]

All sins are personal beings; demons of gluttony, demons of adultery, demons of homosexuality, demons of pride, etc; when we sin they attach to us and we become their slaves.

Ummm… where did you get this piece of theology from?

Are you saying people are gay because they are possessed by a demon?

 

[theCardinalbird]

“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them…” -2 Peter 2: 20-22

And so what ends up happening to those people. Should they despair??

 

[DarkLight]

Why exactly is that a problem? People sin. That happens on Earth, and yes, God-fearing Catholics sin. If a person fails to be chaste once or twice, or thirty times, they just need to get up and seek chastity one more time, through the Holy Spirit.

And circumstantially, there is almost nothing in common between the ex-gay movement and the Spiritual Friendship crowd. Spiritual Friendship folks aren’t insisting on orientation change.

My concern is that fear of potential unchastity gets in the way of people developing healthy relationships. A lack of support and encouragement is also going to encourage people towards unchastity, if they are instead seeking closeness from those who will not understand or support the idea of chastity.

 

[Mtdobbs]

I think what “some” people might be forgetting is choosing celibacy as a life vocation is normally a choice after discernment. Choosing to be single is a choice. If you don’t feel called to marriage at all, at least you (probably) discerned. People with deep seated same sex attraction cant discern these same things. There is not the same “choice” for them. I’m not doubting the wisdom of the Church, but I cant help but feel how much a struggle this would be… to not have a choice.

Even if we cant find an immediate solution… In the least, we should pause to really think and try to see how much of a struggle this could be for our brothers and sisters who carry this cross. The more we see and understand the wounds of Christ, the more we will love. The more we see and understand the wounds of Christ, in our brothers and sisters… the more we will love.

 

[Thorolfr]

Why exactly is that a problem? People sin. That happens on Earth, and yes, God-fearing Catholics sin. If a person fails to be chaste once or twice, or thirty times, they just need to get up and seek chastity one more time, through the Holy Spirit.

And circumstantially, there is almost nothing in common between the ex-gay movement and the Spiritual Friendship crowd. Spiritual Friendship folks aren’t insisting on orientation change.

It would be a problem for someone to fail 30 times because they would probably start to hate themselves and be consumed by guilt. Constant failure kind of has a negative impact on one’s self esteem. I don’t think that it’s normal for humans to be single and celibate and that’s why it’s so difficult. Most people, I believe, want to be in a relationship with someone.

I gave up trying to fight against the feelings I had for other men more than 35 years ago, and those feelings are not just about sex but also about a desire to be in a relationship that involves love, companionship, and intimacy. And I don’t necessarily just mean physical intimacy (which can include things besides sex like hugging or holding hand), but also emotional intimacy, someone with whom I feel complete trust and a deep personal bond and with whom thoughts and feelings can be shared, someone with whom I can talk about certain kinds of things that I couldn’t talk about with anyone else. I also want experiential intimacy, too, i.e. someone with whom I can be actively involved in many mutual activities that we share together, someone with whom I can share my life. Even if we’re not having sex, it’s nice to have someone sleeping in the same bed with me when I go to bed every night.

I just don’t feel the same kind of connection with women that would allow that kind of deep relationship. And I don’t think that mere friends can easily achieve that kind of relationship, either.

I do listen to what you and other people are saying, but to be honest, I can’t imagine myself being able to live the kind of life that you all say is necessary for people who experience “same-sex attraction.” It’s easy to talk in generalities, but much more difficult to apply in practice. You have compared homosexuality to autism several times, conditions with which God has supposedly allowed some people to be afflicted for mysterious and unknown reasons. A lot of people here in CAF describe these things as “crosses” that people have to bear. I have ADHD which many scientists now suspect shares biological roots with autism, and I have struggled with it my whole life. I already have a hard time even understanding why God would allow innocent people to be burdened (using a Catholic metaphor) with a very heavy “cross” to bear. If I really thought that being gay is a bad thing, I’d have to believe that I’ve been given two heavy crosses to bear. It would seem kind of unfair to me. Struggling to keep my ADHD under control is already overwhelming sometimes. If I had to struggle with being single and celibate, too, I can’t even imagine how I would manage.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

My concern is that fear of potential unchastity gets in the way of people developing healthy relationships. A lack of support and encouragement is also going to encourage people towards unchastity, if they are instead seeking closeness from those who will not understand or support the idea of chastity.

Oh, I agree about that. Sins always have bad consequences in this world. But there’s simply no way to get around that, unless we stop sinning. This is not a “gay problem”; this is a human problem.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It would be a problem for someone to fail 30 times because they would probably start to hate themselves and be consumed by guilt.

I’ve heard this before, but I don’t understand why it works that way. I have fallen into masturbation over and over again in my life, and I don’t hate myself and I’m not consumed with guilt. Why not? I don’t know. But it makes no sense to me to be consumed with guilt! I would only be consumed with guilt if I thought I needed to be perfect. I know that I do not need to be perfect.

Guilt can help me change, sometimes. But it never consumes me – not since I started being open about my SSA with people I love, at least.

And I don’t necessarily just mean physical intimacy (which can include things besides sex like hugging or holding hand), but also emotional intimacy, someone with whom I feel complete trust and a deep personal bond and with whom thoughts and feelings can be shared, someone with whom I can talk about certain kinds of things that I couldn’t talk about with anyone else. I also want experiential intimacy, too, i.e. someone with whom I can be actively involved in many mutual activities that we share together, someone with whom I can share my life. Even if we’re not having sex, it’s nice to have someone sleeping in the same bed with me when I go to bed every night.

None of the things you mention are forbidden by the Church, except sex. I think most of them are good for you, though some of them have meanings in our culture that would make chastity difficult.

And I don’t think that mere friends can easily achieve that kind of relationship, either.

Why not?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I do listen to what you and other people are saying, but to be honest, I can’t imagine myself being able to live the kind of life that you all say is necessary for people who experience “same-sex attraction.” It’s easy to talk in generalities, but much more difficult to apply in practice. You have compared homosexuality to autism several times, conditions with which God has supposedly allowed some people to be afflicted for mysterious and unknown reasons. A lot of people here in CAF describe these things as “crosses” that people have to bear. I have ADHD which many scientists now suspect shares biological roots with autism, and I have struggled with it my whole life. I already have a hard time even understanding why God would allow innocent people to be burdened (using a Catholic metaphor) with a very heavy “cross” to bear. If I really thought that being gay is a bad thing, I’d have to believe that I’ve been given two heavy crosses to bear. It would seem kind of unfair to me. Struggling to keep my ADHD under control is already overwhelming sometimes. If I had to struggle with being single and celibate, too, I can’t even imagine how I would manage.

Well, this is easily the most beautiful thing I’ve read all week, Thor. You clearly are really listening, and I want you to know I’m listening too. I don’t understand why different people have different burdens. I have no idea. My burden is heavier than I’ve explained here, if that’s any consolation – but I don’t know why it would be. I cannot speak to your situation at all, but in my life, things like sexual activity or intimacy can act as a sort of balm for my nervous energy. I’m on the edge of being ADHD too, I think. It’s hard to imagine living without that balm.

I have more to say, but I gotta go to a meeting now. Thank you for your openness, and know that I consider you a brother in Christ.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

I didn’t say nor did I imply that. I think the Pope said something about rash judgement.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

yes, no, what do you think?

 

[theCardinalbird]

yes, no, what do you think?

I don’t know

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

I thought it was a retorical question, but I don’t really know what a rhetorical question is in the first place.

 

[una_ecclesia]

I’m not LGBT/SSA myself, but I’ve perused through the gay Catholic blogosphere enough to be aware of the problem you are bringing up. I’m a regular reader of the Spiritual Friendship website where Tushnet, Belgau, Hill etc. regularly post, and I have found their content not only pioneering a good and healthy way of talking about the life of holiness for LGBT people, but that their struggles in particular have led them to make astute observations about the culture in general, particularly with respect to friendship, that have helped me in my own life.

But here’s the thing. I think their struggle with their own same sex attractions uniquely equipped them with these insights. Their needs, combined with an inability to satisfy them in today’s modern cultural context, made them look more deeply into our rich Christian history than the typical heterosexual would not feel compelled to do. Tushnet’s reflections on vocation stemming from looking for that “yes” behind the “no”, basically revived the discussion on friendships in a way that goes beyond even her sphere.

I don’t think there is one single vocation for someone who is gay, but if there is anything that I could think of that such vocations have in common that would be of service to the whole Church, especially among those who can’t see themselves going for a mixed orientation marriage, it’s that, properly channeled, such desires can be reordered towards the formation of true friendships that extend beyond typical family lines.

St. Paul talks about celibacy in heightened terms. He argues that the celibate person has the advantage of being able to dedicate his life fully to God, while the married person has to split his attention because he is concerned over his family. I know this is definitely true for me as a married woman with a child along the way. Jesus talks also about the “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven” receiving a special reward, but this reward is given to all those who could be considered “eunuchs” who persist in faithfulness, not just the ones who chose to be so. Obviously being gay is not the same as being a eunuch, but such a passage should be used against those who somehow thing that because the celibacy was not chosen like with a straight dude, it doesn’t have the same glory attached to it.

 

[una_ecclesia]

(cntd)
I’m reminded of Wesley Hill’s recent article about his friendships with married couples. Being a single man has enabled him to be a blessing to these other families and given him a reach that he otherwise would not have done had he been with a partner, or if he had even married. The seemingly compelled celibacy (having read some of his other stuff, this was something he had struggled with greatly…) pushed him towards a way more creative way of building up family connections that reflect Christian charity. It’s stuff like this that would have made non-Christians look in and say “see how they love each other”.

You probably know this already, but Tushnet works at a pregnancy crisis center. Again, I’m not SSA, so I can’t say what such an attraction consists of, but it sounds like generally, it’s not a purely sexual thing. The sexual element is indeed not properly ordered, but there is also an affective element involved for many, right? It looks to me like Tushnet was able to bring out the affective element of her desires towards other women and purify them in such a way that they now serve her ministry to women in need. This seems like a powerful way of not just living as a gay Catholic, but also transforming what is potentially a temptation or weakness of man into a strength of God.

I’m not so sure what a ministry specifically for LGBT people would look like, but I think one big way that would help in the daily life of the Church is a visible resurgence of the respect for celibacy that was once a distinguishing factor of Catholic moral theology, and that such a celibate calling can be found within the lay world (rather than limiting to clergy or religious). Obviously such a thing would be true for non-LGBT celibates, but the cultural elevation would be most advantages for those who feel like they have to take that route, know what I mean? Rather than making it a second class role, we emphasize the advantages that come with celibacy, but also strengthen the celibate person with a strong community with all sorts of deep friendships. Maybe then again they could say of us, in this isolated culture, “see how they love each other.”

 

[catholic1seeks]

None of the things you mention are forbidden by the Church, except sex. I think most of them are good for you, though some of them have meanings in our culture that would make chastity difficult.

Exactly. What is the purpose of sex? This question has led Christian traditions including Catholicism to say that only within marriage is sex permissible, since sex is ordered to procreation.

But I think it’s counter-productive to say all these other things (spiritual and committed friendship, non-sexual intimacy, living together in celibate partnerships) are inappropriate paths — as both @Thorolfr and @Gab123 are saying (but for two very different reasons). Because in this thread’s context, we’re talking about (1) a faithful Catholic context and (2) the real needs and struggles of LGBT people. Granted, not having sex is a struggle for LGBT people, but I think we have to remember that sex, though normal and good, is not meant for all people, as Jesus said about Eunochs (and besides, Jesus was celibate).

 

[catholic1seeks]

But here’s the thing. I think their struggle with their own same sex attractions uniquely equipped them with these insights. Their needs, combined with an inability to satisfy them in today’s modern cultural context, made them look more deeply into our rich Christian history than the typical heterosexual would not feel compelled to do. Tushnet’s reflections on vocation stemming from looking for that “yes” behind the “no”, basically revived the discussion on friendships in a way that goes beyond even her sphere.

That’s a very good insight.

 

[Gab123]

I’m not so sure what a ministry specifically for LGBT people would look like

pioneering a good and healthy way of talking about the life of holiness for LGBT people

I cringe when I hear people branding themselves or others with these worldly manufactured labels; the list has grown from LGB to LGBT to LGBTQ to LGBTTQQI . . . LGBTTQQIAAP etc. in a matter of a few politically-driven cultural cycles. It’s only a matter time for zoophilia to find its respected name and place in the growing list.

In reality—and nobody in the world wants to hear the truth— the spiritual side of all of this is one of an enemy waging war against the Holy Spirit The Lord and Giver of LIFE; dividing and conquering human beings made in the image and likeness of God, and enslaving them into prisons where none of them are being fertile or multiplying to glorify God. Instead, men, women and now even children are being trapped in a psychological prison known as vice within a world that has attractively marketed, promoted and normalized immorality and sexual sin to the point when’re entire generations have been completely indoctrinated and bred by the world to act and think like the world.

In reality, the answer to the growing LGBTTQQAAP x trap is, was, and always will be the virtue of PURITY, simply because it is a matter of sexual morality. It is not one of making the Church more open and welcome to the rainbow culture, but to turn up the volume on the virtue of purity, modesty and and the sacrament of Matrimony. Obviously Church teaching is going to be a scandal to the world, and it must; thus Jesus clearly explained…

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. -John 15:18-22

The insidious use of the rainbow as a flag for all these groups to march behind is simply another hallmark of demonic manifestation, being that the rainbow was the sign that God said would represent His promise to never destroy the world again by a flood on account of the abominations of man. Thus it is that Satan mocks God as he marches all his willing marchers down the broad road that leads into the great pit…

So from a Church Militant perspective, it is a call to intensify the answer to all the calls from heaven, to sacrifice, mortifications, penance and prayer for the salvation of souls. That was the entire point of the messages of Fatima, after the children were shown the reality of hell. It’s all about having a true conversion to Jesus Christ.

 

[Fauken]

I don’t know if you understand the issue here. No one is saying that people who actively indulge in their SSA should have a ministry in the Church that allows them to engage in it or facilitates such behavior. We’re talking about Catholics who do not want to engage in such behavior, who know it’s wrong, and want to live chastely. “Just don’t have sex and do penance” is extremely vague. What does that look like, exactly, when the single life as a vocation is not defined and they can’t enter the priesthood, get married (if it’s exclusive), nor enter religious life?