What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

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catholic1seeks said:
Since I do not have that agenda, why do you run with this presumption? How about answering my own question and concerns.
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I think this thread has grown to address different issues. I gave my advice on the original question long ago… but I think that people don’t realize the active agenda that is taking place inside the Church today with baby steps, with faithless clergy and cafeteria laity, just like in the Anglican Church, which has managed to divide the faithful and pervert the youth. again, don’t be fooled…
 
Gab123 said:
but I think that people don’t realize the active agenda that is taking place inside the Church today with baby steps,
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By whom? People who seek for changes such as allowing gay marriage are wasting time as the theological implications of such a move would in fact remove the sovereignty of God and destroy the fact that marriage was only made for a man and a woman. The sexual ethics of the Church will not be changed.
 
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all this thread is asking about his helping those LGBT people in the Church live FAITHFULLY to church teaching…

What do you not understand about that?
 
theCardinalbird said:
By whom? People who seek for changes such as allowing gay marriage are wasting time as the theological implications of such a move would in fact remove the sovereignty of God and destroy the fact that marriage was only made for a man and a woman. The sexual ethics of the Church will not be changed.
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By people associated with the rainbow movement inside the Church. Obviously hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church but it certainly can divide and conquer many souls.
 
una_ecclesia said:
It doesn’t say anything about homosexuality being a “psychological disorder”, though, at least the way that psycholocigcal disorders are commonly understood. While a desire to have sex with someone of the same sex is “disordered” in the natural law sense (i.e., since sex is ordered towards procreation, a desire for sex with someone or something with whom it is metaphysically impossible to procreate would make no sense… the desire is not properly directed), there are plenty of desires that are disordered in a similar way that are not considered psychological disorders.

Be watchful that you do not confuse Freudian psychology with Church teaching. The Church always saw homosexual activity as wrong and even perverse, but it’s treatment and the penances related to it were comparable to penances for other sins. Attacking homosexuality as a psychological disorder actually weakened our stance, and more importantly, it turned the way we viewed LGB/SSA people as people with a particular temptation we may or may not share (i.e., regular people like us) to just plain icky people, and it’s very difficult to answer for our claims all many of us had prior to the rise of the gay rights movement and liberalization of sexuality was “ick”.
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Exactly right.
 
I think he’s referring to groups like Dignity USA. Which go about addressing the needs of SSA Catholics in the wrong way. While they’re wrong and their methods should be condemned, they’re still not the focus of this thread.
 
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DUDE, when I said there is no gradualism taking place, I am referring specifically to the people you are talking with in THIS thread. STOP bringing 3rd party opinions into this, and address OUR arguments. We are not James Martin. We are not pro-gay marriage and pro-homosexuality types. And we are very well aware of those who actually do propose gradualism rather than those who propose Orthodoxy.

Let me repeat:
una_ecclesia said:
All your have done in these posts is apply a rather limited model of what you think are all the possible positions that one could take in this debate about homosexuality, and pigeon hole us into positions that we do not actually hold, nor which would logically follow from what we do hold.
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Now you say,
Gab123 said:
Nonsense…Thus again, the Church needs to denounce the sin as an abomination, lest the future generation of children are all gently and wholesome lay perverted right under your nose.
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All of this fails to connect friendships between people of the same sex and homosexual activity. My point was that Logically accepting homosexuality does not follow from accepting celibate (i.e., chaste) friendships). Furthermore, celibate friendships is something specifically proposed by the Catechism as an anecdote to the lies of this world, under the heading of “disinterested friendships”. Finally, the people who want to infiltrate the Church with heresy are absolutely against people like Tushnet, Belgau, etc, because the latter are clear in their defense of orthodoxy (and also are critical of the types like Martin, dignity USA, and all these other groups).
 
Fauken said:
While they’re wrong and their methods should be condemned, they’re still not the focus of this thread.
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The methods are tiny gradual steps but a steady March. “Dignity” Catholics are just one of the groups. for example, Christopher Pett, a Catholic and president of “Dignity” said this in an article earlier this year:

“Whether you know it or not, just by being fully and openly LGBTQ or I and Catholic, you are part of a long and vital effort to effect change in the largest, most powerful institution on the planet. Each of us is a movement.

Each time you embrace your sexual orientation or gender identity and your Catholic faith, you challenge the church’s stance that there is an inherent conflict between these aspects of your selfhood.

Each day that you live in loving relationship, in a respectful, sexually intimate relationship, you are resisting the power of this institution.

Each time you offer your Catholic family members, friends, colleagues, and fellow worshippers the opportunity to embrace your true self, you hasten the day when the false dogma too long promulgated by the Vatican and church officials across the globe finally crumbles. Then LGBTQI people will at last be seen as fully human, embodying the divine just as much as our straight/cisgender kin do. When the harmful, dehumanizing teachings are finally repealed, the oppressive underpinnings of much social and legal discrimination will vanish. . .

. . .I need to continually embrace this belief that each of us is a movement, called to change perceptions, tell our story, speak up, show up, and sometimes act up. Ask questions. Challenge authorities who want to mask Catholic Church teaching within a cocoon of “pastoral care” that extends only to those who submit to the official outreach structure while omitting those who stand on the margins in their truth and integrity.”
 
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Gab123 said:
Then LGBTQI people will at last be seen as fully human, embodying the divine just as much as our straight/cisgender kin do. When the harmful, dehumanizing teachings are finally repealed, the oppressive underpinnings of much social and legal discrimination will vanish. .
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I find this offensive from that Dignity person. The teaching is not dehumanizing and the fact that this person deems it right to say that the Church is not treating people with SSA human because they can’t have sexual relations with people of the same sex, makes me wonder what he deems a human is. Humanity’s identity is not found in sexuality, it’s found in God.
 
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una_ecclesia said:
DUDE, when I said there is no gradualism taking place, I am referring specifically to the people you are talking with in THIS thread.
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Don’t be dumb. I’m talking about an active movement inside the Church; and how they encourage regular folk struggling with SSA to slowly normalize homosexuality to the point that it invites false compassion to rationalize homosexual relationships, and impact future generations to divide the Church on the issue, driving men, women and children to question Church teachingand ultimately ushering them right out of the Church… The goal is normalization.
 
Gab123 said:
Don’t be dumb. I’m talking about an active movement inside the Church
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You quoted me saying “there is no gradualism taking place.” When I said that, I did not mean there is no gradualism taking place anywhere, but rather that among those with whom you are currently discussing, there is no promotion of gradualism because we all are against it as well. But you responded with a long thing about Fr. James Martin, when what he proposes is not what people here are proposing. You brought in a third party, rather than responding to us.

Look, your discussion is with us. Not Martin, not the gay activists, not the “side A” types, not dignity. Us. We know about these groups. We know about the dangers they pose, in their own ways (I don’t think Martin has the same issues as dignity USA, for example). If you want to address Martin, dignity, etc., then talk to them.
 
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Not to mention that Fr James himself has not explicitly stated any kind of “gradualism.” I recommend his actual book for his actual words. In the mean time, yes, I’d like to get back to this thread, not some alleged enemy within the church.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Not to mention that Fr James himself has not explicitly stated any kind of “gradualism.” I recommend his actual book for his actual words. In the mean time, yes, I’d like to get back to this thread, not some alleged enemy within the church.
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Don’t be naive. Those people are wolves in sheeps clothing. And the idea of having SSA people specifically having a role in the Church other than striving for sanctification like everyone else, is just part of the covert means the gradualism hides behind. Again, i’m not talking about you, but the idea behind forming special roles and vocations, which specifically single out and identify certain people. Just be Catholic, live the faith, grow in holiness; people from all walks of life live celibate lives. No need for a special committee or church department; all of that is simply the agenda-driven gradualism…
 
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