What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[Inisfallen]

All I have to say is hang in there. The Church welcomes you. As do I.

 

[QwertyGirl]

Well they could stop referring to it as being disordered. That might be a good beginning. And I mean that sincerely. The language should be changed, because in today’s world it is highly offensiveve and lends
Itself to such negative reaction negative reaction. I realize that is not the intent, but that is where we are at. And the impact is significant. There must be a Kinder way of referring to the church’s teaching on homosexuality then by using a word that has, rightly or wrongly, become such a source of emotional pain for so many.

 

[SacredHeartBassist]

It is disordered. The cathecism teaches this.

 

[QwertyGirl]

And how is using that word working for the church right about now? I would say not very well since it alienates so many people. Find a different way to describe it. Language in the catechism can be adjusted, changed, and modified. It doesn’t have to change the teaching, it changes the way individuals are addressed.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Also @Thorolfr, just so you don’t have a horrible idea of Catholics, I’m willing to say that the average Catholic pastor (parish priest and even bishops) have, well, a much more pastoral approach to all of this than what some of the CAF participants think – or would want. Pastors are called to be realistic.

And as you probably also know, the typical “Catholic” (albeit, they may not be totally educated in the faith) is also much more open and compassionate towards LGBT persons. I once read that Catholics were the Christian group most likely to support same-sex rights (marriage even, if I recall).

Then again, I do want to separate that from being compassionate and open in general, for you don’t have to agree with same-sex marriage to also see a real need for this kind of forum question.

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I can’t imagine some very orthodox and well-known Catholic bishops, like Bishop Robert Barron (or even Pope Francis himself) saying some of the things some CAF posters are saying on here and similar forums.

 

[Imdaman]

I think that people with same sex attraction need to stop announcing it to the world iand keep their sexual struggles private, just like anyone else who struggles with being chaste. also, the Church needs to speak loud and clear about the agenda-driven normalization of the gay lifestyle and its spiritual detriment on children, family and society…

I think this post of yours tosses aside a real problem with a homosexually driven agenda to normalize these relationships.

There are two very real sides to this story.

For a person, like yourself I believe, who is trying to live out the Churches teaching on homosexual inclinations it is important that we (the church) help you feel comfortable and welcome in the Church. YOur talent and treasure is needed and appreciated.

There is also the importance of preventing scandal and not approving of the homosexual “lifestyle” for the lack of a better phrase.

For example a choir Director married to the man he loves can not be allowed to stay in this position. Are the welcome at Mass… of course! SHould they be discreet and repectful of Church teaching yes!

The Church has also indicated that Men with deeply seated homosexual tendancies should not be admitted to the Priesthood. This is a wise decision and stems from the nature of the of Preistly abuse crisis within the Churches Past.

So yeah we need to be understanding on both sides of this debate.

 

[DarkLight]

One point I’ve seen made is that it’s generally assumed that a single young adult in the church is in need of an opposite-sex spouse. If an adult doesn’t go on dates and doesn’t seek to join the priesthood or religious life, it’s likely that people will notice and talk. If they are reasonably attractive and get asked out, that’s going to cause further talk. I don’t know how it is for men, but I know there can be quite a stigma for young women choosing to remain single, especially in more conservative communities. So keeping everything under wraps may not help much.

Converts and reverts are also a thing. We cannot assume that when someone has been openly homosexual (because as a non-Catholic why wouldn’t they?) that everyone will suddenly forget about that when they join the church. Their past is still there and may be well known, especially in an internet age where it’s common for relationship information to be up in public.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Well, straw man, basically.

I no where said anything about promoting the “lifestyle” (whatever that may mean, for there are as many lifestyles as there are persons).

My thread assumes being faithful to church teaching:

Beyond refraining from extra-marital sex and same-sex sexual relationships…,

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

I don’t think that supports the proposition that men who experience SSA are per se ineligible for the priesthood.

It essentially says A) no one has a RIGHT to ordination (duh) and B) men who are practicing homosexuals, support “gay culture” or have “deep seated tendencies” shouldn’t be ordained. The first two are obvious. Someone who is currently in a sinful sexual relationship, or openly disagrees with Church teaching shouldn’t be ordained. Fine. The last one, “deep seated tendencies” is pretty vague. Given that the rest of it references “relating appropriately to men and women” and specifically says that bishops can exercise case-by-case judgment, I think all it’s saying is that a bishop COULD justly deny ordination to someone that he reasonably thinks won’t be able to appropriately minister because of some deep-seated same sex attraction.

All that to say, this is a far cry from a per se rule that any man who experiences SSA can’t be ordained.

 

[SacredHeartBassist]

But it is disordered. It’s against nature and natural law. Saying the opposite wouldn’t just be wrong but it would be a lie. Marriage is between a man and a woman and homosexual relations go against Gods plan for sexuality and romantic love

 

[Imdaman]

Well, straw man, basically.

I no where said anything about promoting the “lifestyle” (whatever that may mean, for there are as many lifestyles as there are persons).

My thread assumes being faithful to church teaching:

Beyond refraining from extra-marital sex and same-sex sexual relationships…,

I understand where you are coming from and appreciate your committment to the Church. I am just pointing out that oue should not dismiss others concern with regards to how many want to see the Church change to not only welcome but approve of certain aspects of homosexuality.

These concerns have to be addressed and understood so that many people who feel strongly on this subject would feel less threatened by this very real agenda.

 

[theCardinalbird]

Well they could stop referring to it as being disordered. That might be a good beginning. And I mean that sincerely. The language should be changed, because in today’s world it is highly offensiveve and lends
Itself to such negative reaction negative reaction

But then how will the Church explain what SSA is? It is a disordered desire and there is no way to go around it I’m sure

 

[SacredHeartBassist]

I disagree. I think it implies that you can’t be a priest until you over come ssa

 

[catholic1seeks]

Well, if they were truly orthodox Catholics, they would believe that the church is infallible, that the “gates of hell will not prevail against” the church, and so they have no reason to fear the church changing any teaching on marriage or sin.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I highly recommend getting familiar with Eve Tushnet.

She is faithful Catholic and celibate lesbian.

She is a convert from secular Judaism, and she notices the stigma of having SSA/being gay in the Catholic Church. And she also notices the lack of opportunities for LGBT people in the church to form meaningful relationships and vocations other than marriage.

Here she talks about some of the alternative ways the church can promote:

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

I think you’re using the text to prove too much. At best, it could be argued that SSA could be a just basis to deny ordination. Not that it MUST be denied in all cases.

 

[SacredHeartBassist]

Right but it depends on ones definition of deep seeded tendencies

 

[Imdaman]

Well, if they were truly orthodox Catholics, they would believe that the church is infallible, that the “gates of hell will not prevail against” the church, and so they have no reason to fear the church changing any teaching on marriage or sin.

OK, but they may also be pragmatists and understand this about Church Infallibility while at the same time see how some individual parishes succumb to the pressures of this agenda and many other heterodox ideas. They see Priests and the congregations going down roads better left unexplored.

 

[catholic1seeks]

But then I wonder what their true fear is?

Are they truly concerned for souls? For the well-being of LGBT folk?

Many people saying the kind of things you say are also the ones who seem least compassionate or the least sensitive to any other issue beyond doctrinal orthodoxy. And that makes me doubt their motives, as if they truly care about LGBT people anyway.

 

[catholic1seeks]

In fact I recommend this video so much that I almost would rather not participate in conversation unless other people were also familiar with it – or at least Eve’s major ideas.

Because so much is getting lost in these kinds of threads, and many people misunderstand the question, and so on.

But Eve gets at exactly what is at the foundation of my question, the OP, this thread.