What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[DarkLight]

I mean, part of the problem is reasonable expectations don’t always…help.

You can know intellectually that that sort of bond is rare. But that doesn’t really help when you really need a shoulder to cry on or someone to talk to - someone who cares about you and your life specifically and who you have a personal relationship with. It can really exacerbate the sense that you’re not important in the church just because no matter what, your emotional needs and support are always less important than someone else’s. And that may be appropriate behavior for how married people should act towards their families, but that doesn’t really make it not something that can hurt a lot and make people feel like they’re less important than people who are married.

 

[leonhardprintz]

I choose to be celibate. I have no further reason for any special recognition in the Church. It is enough for me to attend mass when I am able, pray the divine office and beyond that enjoy the natural joys of this world.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It can really exacerbate the sense that you’re not important in the church just because no matter what, your emotional needs and support are always less important than someone else’s.

This is one huge reason why I do not look to the church as the source for my friends. For me personally, church is about having my needs for love of God and perhaps some limited “Christian fellowship” met. If I also were looking to church to meet my needs for providing bosom buddies or relationship partners, then when something went wrong with those friendships/ relationships because of the 10001 things that happen between people, or I just didn’t happen to find the right type of person at church, then church would be catching some of the flak for that in my mind, even though I would logically be trying to separate it out. Of course, if some wonderful person just happened to come along while I was at church, the same way I’ve occasionally had a significant bond with someone met through my job, then I wouldn’t turn my back on it just because it originated at church or at work, but those places are not designed to meet friendship needs.

 

[Gab123]

The real world is not always “black and white” as CAF can make it seem.]

Yes. But sin is always black and white; though when one wants to rationalize sin, one suddenly become really philosophical with tomes of lofty arguments.

I’m not advocating change in the church’s sexual moral teaching. That’s a separate issue.

The more I read what you say the more it sounds like that is ultimately what you want, only not discussed in this thread…

The Catholic Church will probably never change its teaching on sex and marriage, at least not anytime soon.

It doesn’t sound like you believe the Church teaches infallibly on the issue of gay sex; and that it is only a question of activism and time for the Church to possibly bless homosexual acts.

Until people in the church realize that homosexual persons need more than a “cure” for their sexual attractions, well, the church will just never get it.

It sounds like many really don’t want to be healed?

I have been in and out of the Catholic Church before, for the very reason that I have often felt that I cannot flourish as a gay (SSA) individual in the Church

The fact that you go in and out of the Church based on if you feel you can flourish with your gay identity in the Church simply shows you’re not in the Church for the right reasons; If you truly believed the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and that the Holy Eucharist is Jesus and that Christ speaks through His Church, then you would never leave the Church. So it looks like the problem is that you don’t have faith; It sounds like you’re really more interested in finding safe spaces and hoping for changing Church teaching than anything else?

. This thread, for the 1,000th time, is about fostering the lives of LGBT people WITHIN the Church. This assumes following church teaching – going to the sacraments, NOT having sex, etc.

Everything you’ve been arguing is exactly what was argued in the Episcopal Anglican Church in order to get to the ultimate goal. One need only see the timeline of milestones of the Gay movement in that church to see that what you are calling for is the exact same tactics used in the Anglican Church. Interestingly, if the Catholic Church means so little to you that you said you’ve been “in and out” before simply because you don’t feel you can flourish as a transexual or gay man, why not just join the Anglican Church? Maybe it’s time to speak your real feelings on the issue…

 

[Gab123]

That the Church will have to figure out how to welcome these gay couples while also determining how to promote alternative vocations to marriage for other gay people.

I asked you before: at what point do you tell these gay couples in the Church that they will have to live like siblings, go to confession prepared with a sincere act of contrition if theyever expect to be saved?

Catholics were the Christian group most likely to support same-sex rights (marriage even, if I recall).

Only the Catholics who don’t know their faith or reject Catholic teaching…

Beyond refraining from extra-marital sex and same-sex sexual relationships, how do you currently perceive the vocation for single gay people?

It’s not about simply “refraining” from having sex; it’s about chastity and purity. Celibacy is a farse if one does not practice chastity and purity. Christ made this clear. Bill Clinton argued he did not have sex with Monica Lewinsky based on his definition of sexual relations, According to his rationalizations, he had a celibate relationship with her.

A Christian is called to holiness. We get that.
But it’s not “enough.”

Maybe you don’t know what holiness is. Realize that the only thing God wants of you is your sanctification and the salvation of your soul. Maybe you are too focused on the temporary than on the eternal? After all, It’s only a matter of time that your body will die, turn green, decompose and turn into dust. A small change in mindset can refocus one’s entire outlook…

 

[Mtdobbs]

I asked you before: at what point do you tell these gay couples in the Church that they will have to live like siblings, go to confession prepared with a sincere act of contrition if theyever expect to be saved?

Right after the point the these couples meet Christ in their neighbours and have a life changing experience with Him, one that is profound enough to make them want to change … but by all of your negative posts, this expectation looks unrealistic as many people view it as bleak and as you do Gab. You and I are to be Christ to them, not just the Christ who said “ go and sin no more” but the Christ who ate with sinners, saved their lives from crowds who would stone them to death and the Christ who would give His life for His friends, as sinful as they might be.

 

[Dorothy]

I am 81 years old now, and I clearly remember my pastor saying many times (I was about 9 or 10 then) about being a single person is also a vocation. Our pastor pointed out to us that many of us has an “Aunt Bessie”, or an “Uncle Harry” who did not get married.

And, there are also widows who became so at a young age and who began volunteering in various ways at their parish.

Of course, as you said, being a nurse, scientist, etc. is also a vocation. That was always clear to me.

 

[Gab123]

Gab’s version of Jesus says, “Go join another church!”:

Don’t be silly; Jesus only founded one Church; if you are intent on changing the Church’s teachings to fit your morality, then you are aligning yourself with all the wolves and false teachers Jesus warned would be inside the Church.

But 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 states:
“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. …

And 1 Corinthians 5:11 advises the Church:

“But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.”

 

[Mark121359]

We’re living in an age that celebrates and champions sodomy, and they have made it clear that they intend on conquering the Church, meaning, conquering the minds of the faithful.

Yes. And it has plenty of help, and coming from all places…inside the Church itself. Heartbreaking.

Fr. James Martin praises Catholic parish booklet affirming active gays - LifeSite

The Jesuit priest said in a tweet that he's 'so proud' of a New York City Catholic church's booklet containing stories about sexually active homosexuals.

www.lifesitenews.com

 

[Thorolfr]

Gab123:

I asked you before: at what point do you tell these gay couples in the Church that they will have to live like siblings, go to confession prepared with a sincere act of contrition if theyever expect to be saved?

Right after the point the these couples meet Christ in their neighbours and have a life changing experience with Him, one that is profound enough to make them want to change … but by all of your negative posts, this expectation looks unrealistic as many people view it as bleak and as you do Gab. You and I are to be Christ to them, not just the Christ who said “ go and sin no more” but the Christ who ate with sinners, saved their lives from crowds who would stone them to death and the Christ who would give His life for His friends, as sinful as they might be.

Gab’s version of Jesus says, “Go join another church!”:

Interestingly, if the Catholic Church means so little to you that you said you’ve been “in and out” before simply because you don’t feel you can flourish as a transexual or gay man, why not just join the Anglican Church?

And as far as I know, catholic1seeks has never indicated that he’s transsexual, so I don’t know where that came from. But Gab’s doing his best to drive gay people from the Catholic Church.

 

[Sarcelle]

There is an inherent assumption in your post that I am having a problem with.

Not all people with SSA have committed sexual sin. Just like not all heterosexuals have committed sexual sin.

Your assumption that they all have is troubling.

SSA that is not acted on is not sin.

 

[Thorolfr]

Everything you’ve been arguing is exactly what was argued in the Episcopal Anglican Church in order to get to the ultimate goal. One need only see the timeline of milestones of the Gay movement in that church to see that what you are calling for is the exact same tactics used in the Anglican Church.

You make it sound as if all the changes that you detest in the Episcopal Church had to do with some sort of nefarious conspiracy hatched by LGBT people. But straight people have also made a lot of changes as well. The Episcopal church, for example, has allowed women to be priests since 1975 and they ordained their first woman bishop in 1989. They also allow divorce and remarriage, they’re are not against contraception, and they recognize a woman’s right to terminate a pregnancy. All of those changes seem just as significant as any changes in how they treat LGBT people.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But sin is always black and white

No, it’s not.
People would prefer if it was, because that’s easier.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Maybe you don’t know what holiness is

I don’t think you or anybody else on this forum is the expert on “what holiness is”.
I’m pretty sure unkindness and black-and-white thinking and assumptions aren’t “holiness” though.

 

[Gab123]

The Church teaches what holiness is. Holiness is simply emptying one’s self of the things of the world and uprooting everything that separates us from God; thus a process of becoming simple and little; not rationalizing sin, affirming someone’s vices and celebrating perversions…

 

[Bruised_Reed]

… not rationalizing sin, affirming someone’s vices and celebrating perversions…

And that’s what you’ve made this thread about but it’s not what the OP asked or has discussed.

 

[Gab123]

They also allow divorce and remarriage, they’re are not against contraception, and they recognize a woman’s right to terminate a pregnancy. All of those changes seem just as significant as any changes in how they treat LGBT people.

Yes, all those things are forbidden by God because they are sinful and spiritual detrimental. Jesus was clear on divorce; artificial contraception is behind many social ills and break down of the family; and abortion is murder. yes, the devil is very active in the church using people to teach lies as truth. Now they bless and ordain sodomites; so the tactic of gradualism was very effective in the Anglican church…

 

[Gab123]

And that’s what you’ve made this thread about but it’s not what the OP asked or has discussed.

As any thread, there are offshoots and directions they take. What the OP is calling for is a normalization of the gay identity inside the Church; exact same tactic used in the Anglicanchurch. But his original question was addressed and answered multiple times.

 

[Gab123]

No, it’s not.

Yes it is. Sin is black and white. There are different degrees of sin; but sin is always a sin.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

What the OP is calling for is a normalization of the gay identity inside the Church

Yeah, that’s the tack you you are arguing against but that’s not the OP’s intent…
And while a many have replied it I don’t find but a small few have actually posted anything helpful.