What are your thoughts about expensive and/or ostentatious vestments?

[CompSciGuy]

When I was at college I would go to the parish on campus which was run by a Jesuit, and the liturgy was very stripped down. I didn’t not find it helpful for my spiritual life because there was a lack of reverence in the liturgy.

I have found that when liturgies are stripped down like this, in general the sense of reverence indeed is also stripped down. People will tend to have less respect or reverence for the Eucharist. It is easy to sit through one of these masses and forget what is even going on. The ornate, reverent masses very much direct one’s attention toward the Eucharist and the consecration.

 

[OraLabora]

I have found that when liturgies are stripped down like this, in general the sense of reverence indeed is also stripped down. People will tend to have less respect or reverence for the Eucharist. It is easy to sit through one of these masses and forget what is even going on. The ornate, reverent masses very much direct one’s attention toward the Eucharist and the consecration.

Are we talking only Sunday Mass here, or weekday Mass as well? According to the occasion Mass should be celebrated with graduated degrees of solemnity. I used to attend a 7 am weekday Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal, on a weekly basis when I was in the city for work. It was a quiet, spoken Mass but the silence in the church and the piety of the faithful there, who were all regulars, gave a very quiet dignity to the Mass. Going into Mass in the dark on a winter morning, and emerging to the sun rising over the city at my feet (as many may know the Oratory is on Mount Royal in Montreal), nourished by the Bread of Life, was to me at least a very special grace. Sometimes we need quiet times like this with our Lord.

In any case with regards to vestments, it struck me that nowhere in this thread (unless I missed it) was there any reference to what the Church says on the topic. So I dug around and found this in the General Instructions for the Roman Missal (on the Vatican website):

1. It is fitting that the beauty and nobility of each vestment derive not from abundance of overly lavish ornamentation, but rather from the material that is used and from the design. Ornamentation on vestments should, moreover, consist of figures, that is, of images or symbols, that evoke sacred use, avoiding thereby anything unbecoming.

It would seem that the Church herself recommends a certain degree of sobriety in vestments. As the paragraph mentions, “nobility” does not equal lavish ornamentation. I certainly do agree that noble vestments are required for Mass.

What people are stating about the lavishness of vestments being necessary for the proper celebration of the Mass remains a matter of personal opinion and not necessarily what the Church recommends.

 

[Aran_Houlihan]

My parish has semi gothic chasubles in all of the Liturgical colours.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Are we talking only Sunday Mass here, or weekday Mass as well? According to the occasion Mass should be celebrated with graduated degrees of solemnity. I used to attend a 7 am weekday Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal, on a weekly basis when I was in the city for work. It was a quiet, spoken Mass but the silence in the church and the piety of the faithful there, who were all regulars, gave a very quiet dignity to the Mass. Going into Mass in the dark on a winter morning, and emerging to the sun rising over the city at my feet (as many may know the Oratory is on Mount Royal in Montreal), nourished by the Bread of Life, was to me at least a very special grace. Sometimes we need quiet times like this with our Lord.

Want quiet time with the Lord during the Liturgy? Go to a Low Mass.

In any case with regards to vestments, it struck me that nowhere in this thread (unless I missed it) was there any reference to what the Church says on the topic. So I dug around and found this in the General Instructions for the Roman Missal (on the Vatican website):

It would seem that the Church herself recommends a certain degree of sobriety in vestments. As the paragraph mentions, “nobility” does not equal lavish ornamentation. I certainly do agree that noble vestments are required for Mass.

What people are stating about the lavishness of vestments being necessary for the proper celebration of the Mass remains a matter of personal opinion and not necessarily what the Church recommends.

Rome agrees with the idea that some materials are nobler than others. Also, based on the vestments worn by the some of the highest ranking prelates in the Church (look no further than Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s or Cardinal Burke’s preferences), it is certainly apparent that beautifully decorated vestments are encouraged (it seems the warning is against distracting ornamentation - what this might be, though, I am not sure) Sure, to an extent it is a matter of personal taste. But, it also is very clear that Rome suggests that vestments be made from “noble materials” (once again - silk is better than polyester, etc. etc.). Personally, some of my favorite chasubles are fiddle-back (or even not too “flowy” Gothic) chasubles with an embroidered “IHS” in the large cross on the back. Such a vestment is usually made of a fine material, and the embroidery work intricate.

 

[OraLabora]

Want quiet time with the Lord during the Liturgy? Go to a Low Mass.

Rome agrees with the idea that some materials are nobler than others. Also, based on the vestments worn by the some of the highest ranking prelates in the Church (look no further than Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s or Cardinal Burke’s preferences), it is certainly apparent that beautifully decorated vestments are encouraged (it seems the warning is against distracting ornamentation - what this might be, though, I am not sure) Sure, to an extent it is a matter of personal taste. But, it also is very clear that Rome suggests that vestments be made from “noble materials” (once again - silk is better than polyester, etc. etc.). Personally, some of my favorite chasubles are fiddle-back (or even not too “flowy” Gothic) chasubles with an embroidered “IHS” in the large cross on the back. Such a vestment is usually made of a fine material, and the embroidery work intricate.

Well actually, Rome has spoken about the materials as well:

1. In addition to the traditional materials, natural fabrics proper to each region may be used for making sacred vestments; artificial fabrics that are in keeping with the dignity of the sacred action and the person wearing them may also be used. The Conference of Bishops will be the judge in this matter.[139]

So there is nothing wrong per se with artificial fabrics.

Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

Anything else is a matter of personal opinion. I’m out of here, another time-waster CAF argument.

 

[R_H_Benson]

So there is nothing wrong per se with artificial fabrics.

Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

Anything else is a matter of personal opinion. I’m out of here, another time-waster CAF argument.

I don’t think we are really in disagreement in principle. I should have consulted the GIRM for myself. The line “artificial fabrics that are in keeping with the dignity of the sacred action and the person wearing them may also be used” certainly defeats the particulars of my argument, but it is in the spirit of what I was trying to convey; namely, that vestments should be dignified and give glory to God. Cheers.

 

[OraLabora]

namely, that vestments should be dignified and give glory to God. Cheers.

That I do agree with

Of course taste is another matter, and the beauty of Catholicism is that it is, well, catholic (in the general “universal” sense). That is, there’s room at the table for all sorts of tastes and spiritualities without having to split off new denominations to support them!

 

[Phemie]

Parishes don’t buy them here.
People either donate them, or they were ordination gifts from family.
Superior quality refers to quality of fabrics, perfection of the ornamentation if any, and sewn in a way that they drape well, move well, and hold up over the years.

Ours are all fairly simple. I don’t give a lot of thought to what Father wears. The Mass is more important to me than whether the vestments are to my liking.

That depends entirely on the parish.

Our parish recently purchased a matching set of purple, white, green and red chasubles, the first time in my 17 years here that we’ve had anything that matches.

We were staffed by religious priests from 1958, when our parish was erected, until 3 years ago. Some of them may have brought their own albs but certainly none arrived with chasubles. Most of what we had in the sacristy vestment closet was purchased or scrounged.

One priest was given a beaded caribou hide chasuble by a parish where he became pastor but a light brown chasuble with a huge beaded eagle on the back can’t be worn just anywhere. I know the same priest owned at least one alb because I was there when he sewed it.

 

[Draper]

…344. It is fitting that the beauty and nobility of each vestment derive not from abundance of overly lavish ornamentation, but rather from the material that is used and from the design. Ornamentation on vestments should, moreover, consist of figures, that is, of images or symbols, that evoke sacred use, avoiding thereby anything unbecoming.

Thank you for the quote from the GIRM. It pretty much says it all.

 

[Draper]

The apostles were also pretty busy running for their lives and meeting in secret, so yeah, the logistics of getting decent vestments were probably not so good. Now that it’s the 21st century and we are not running for our lives and hiding in peoples’ houses, don’t you think we can afford to put a little more into our liturgy?

“Decent” vestments? I’m quite certain the Apostles’ vestments were quite “decent.” I suspect they also collectively put FAR MORE into the liturgies they celebrated than those typically celebrated today in the Church.

 

[SyroMalankara]

“Decent” vestments? I’m quite certain the Apostles’ vestments were quite “decent.” I suspect they also collectively put FAR MORE into the liturgies they celebrated than those typically celebrated today in the Church.

Washing machine vestments? Ok, but only if we expect the same from our ‘fancies’ - no more wool/silk suits, only polycotton mass produced in darkblack/navy - seem bland and uninteresting.

As to vestments being ornate, there’s a difference between lavish/ornate and gaudy. Simple, inexpensive can also be just as ugly and gaudy, and even more expensive to maintain or replace in the long term.

 

[CompSciGuy]

“Decent” vestments? I’m quite certain the Apostles’ vestments were quite “decent.” I suspect they also collectively put FAR MORE into the liturgies they celebrated than those typically celebrated today in the Church.

You’re avoiding my point. They did what they could with the resources they had. *We *can do what *we *can with the resources *we *have.

 

[Tigg]

Many people on the liturgical committees seem to have the reasoning that ornate vestments are too “materialistic” and gaudy and take the focus away from prayer. I vehemently disagree with this. Ornate vestments, along with traditional church architecture, iconography, statues, stained glass windows, carvings, candles, altar decorations and even (perhaps especially) the liturgy itself are forms of liturgical art that absolutely need to be used by all churches and need to be preserved for future generations. All of these things are designed to lift the hearts and minds of faithful worshipers toward heaven, and communicate to them what is taking place in the most holy sacrifice of the mass. Furthermore, all of these things are very much a part of our Catholic heritage. To abandon them is, in a way, to abandon a part of the beauty of Catholicism in favor of a more modernized style.

 

[Bookcat]

Beauty often is important.

For the Glory of God and the elevation of our hearts.

Such can be in various way…from the very simple to more intricate works of art.

 

[Tigg]

However that in no way means that plain, frugal, simple vestment can’t also glorify God. The belief that vestment should “be of the finest, most precious materials” is also subjective.

Do you think that *God * might know the difference between silk and cotton?

I guess projecting an image of humility, frugality and plainness trumps the notion of buying expensive material goods for the greater glory of God for me……

How do ostentatious vestments “glorify” God? Simply because they are expensive? I would suggest that plain, frugal and simple vestments can also be extremely beautiful.

Rich materials of the finest quality point toward the grandeur and majesty of the liturgical acts themselves. Even the blessing of the vestments point to God’s glory and give them a sacred element. Why can we not utilize our very finest in the service of God which denotes the Kingship of infinite Majesty? It is not about cost or the noble virtue of humility - it is to physically illustrate in the manner of man gratitude to the Most High and all that the sacred treasure of Christ portrays. To do anything less seems rather petty to me.

 

[Sunbreak]

It doesn’t matter to me one way or the other what vestments the priest wears as long as they aren’t the ridiculous 70s years varieties that featured rainbows, abstract art or some other nonsense.

 

[OraLabora]

It doesn’t matter to me one way or the other what vestments the priest wears as long as they aren’t the ridiculous 70s years varieties that featured rainbows, abstract art or some other nonsense.

I think we can safely confine to the trash bin of history just about any style that came out of the '70s… the cars, the funky suits, the platform shoes…

 

[Draper]

You’re avoiding my point. They did what they could with the resources they had. *We *can do what *we *can with the resources *we *have.

I’m not avoiding anything. One thing I am absolutely certain about that is the amount of “resources” (AKA $$$) spent on vestments means little in the suitability of different vestments for liturgical uses.

 

[Draper]

Do you think that *God * might know the difference between silk and cotton?

God is God – He knows EVERYTHING. A better question would be if God cares.

Rich materials of the finest quality point toward the grandeur and majesty of the liturgical acts themselves. Even the blessing of the vestments point to God’s glory and give them a sacred element. Why can we not utilize our very finest in the service of God which denotes the Kingship of infinite Majesty? It is not about cost or the noble virtue of humility - it is to physically illustrate in the manner of man gratitude to the Most High and all that the sacred treasure of Christ portrays. To do anything less seems rather petty to me.

You’re equating “most expensive” to “finest” and simply put, that dog don’t hunt.

 

[Draper]

It doesn’t matter to me one way or the other what vestments the priest wears as long as they aren’t the ridiculous 70s years varieties that featured rainbows, abstract art or some other nonsense.

Those are hideous – and too many sacristies are still fully of them.