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theoda
Guest
I think you are disagreeing that the Church is necessary for salvation. Didn’t you say that Protestants who reject the Catholic Church can go to heaven?
What are your thoughts on the pope's call for Christian unity (video link)
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Tommy999
Guest
Me too, JonNC. I also liked Pope John Paul II, who I saw in person when I visited St Peter’s for Midnight Mass back in 1978. I was studying Spanish in Spain for a year and traveled to Rome with some Catholic friends of mine who were studying at the same university who had invited me to go with them to see Italy. That was my first glimpse into Catholicism and it was awe-inspiring.
I think Catholics and Protestants should unite around core beliefs and causes that are held in common, like the beliefs stated in the Nicene Creed and the sanctity of life, for starters.
In short, I believe we are on the same team fighting against Satan and the powers of darkness in this world, as stated in Ephesians 6:12:
*“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms”. *
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theoda
Guest
“Assured that there exist few men who are entirely devoid of the religious sense, they seem to ground on this belief a hope that all nations, while differing indeed in religious matters, may yet without great difficulty be brought to fraternal agreement on certain points of doctrine which will form a common basis of the spiritual life. With this object, congresses, meetings, and addresses are arranged, attended by a large concourse of hearers, where all without distinction, unbelievers of every kind as well as Christians, even those who unhappily have rejected Christ and denied His divine nature or mission, are invited to join in the discussion.” (§2)
"Such efforts can meet with no kind of approval among Catholics. They presuppose the erroneous view that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy (this is the error of indifferentism), inasmuch as all give expression, under various forms, to that innate sense which leads men to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Those who hold such a view are not only in error; they distort the true idea of religion, and thus reject it, falling gradually into naturalism and atheism. To favor this opinion, and to encourage such undertakings is tantamount to abandoning the religion revealed by God." (§2)-Pope Pius XI, Mortalium animos
Sorry, that’s just not how it is. Rather, I think it is the Protestants that are hindering the Church’s efforts to defeat evil by breaking away from it and teaching false ideas.
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Fragile
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Fragile
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I find some of these posts to be rather disturbing, since on any given day you will here the hosts as well as guests on CA Live referring to Protestants as “brothers in the faith”, and expect many of them to be in Heaven…
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theoda
Guest
Well do the guests on CA trumph St. Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine of Hippo, The pope, etc.?
I don’t think so.
We should treat Protestants very kindly, but it doesn’t mean we should respect their false ideas.
"Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, He did not respect their false ideas, however sincere they might have appeared. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them.”-St. Pius X
I don’t think so.
We should treat Protestants very kindly, but it doesn’t mean we should respect their false ideas.
"Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, He did not respect their false ideas, however sincere they might have appeared. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them.”-St. Pius X
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SAVINGRACE
Guest
I think we have some common ground. For me the numbers of abortion worldwide is the biggest moral crisis and evil facing the world today. Evangelicals, some fundies and other assorted christian denoms are outspoken pro-life advocates. We agree that life commences at conception and is sacred.
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SAVINGRACE
Guest
Of course there will be Protestants in Heaven. Some Catholics will not enter Heaven. Did Jesus not take the thief to Heaven with him? God decides who enters Heaven not man.
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clem456
Guest
I admire your zeal, but this is a red herring. No one disputes what the Church teaches. But what you said initially is incorrect.
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Tommy999
Guest
I just listened to what Pope Francis said in the link that the OP (Naivessence) posted in post #1. I was encouraged to see that the Pope considers Protestants to be brothers and sisters in Christ. He stated that we share the same baptism, the same Lord, and the Beatitudes.
He said the we all believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We all have the Holy Spirit inside us who prays for us.
He went on to say that what we have in common is stronger and more important than what divides us and that God is not just with Him (the Pope) because he is a Roman Catholic. God is also with the Lutherans, Pentecostals, etc.
He mentions that another sign of Christian unity is that Christians of all faith traditions are considered the same by those who are killing Christians in the Middle East and elsewhere. The blood of Catholics and other Christians has been spilled equally and sometimes even together in some places.
My editorial comment:
*If the enemies of Christianity consider both Catholics and non-Catholic Christians to be Christians, why shouldn’t we? *
He never said that all doctrinal differences and divisions with Christianity would cease due to attempts at Christian unity, but that the divisions would become smaller if we work on what unites us instead of being fixated on what divides us.
I like Pope Francis and have a deep respect for him.
He said the we all believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We all have the Holy Spirit inside us who prays for us.
He went on to say that what we have in common is stronger and more important than what divides us and that God is not just with Him (the Pope) because he is a Roman Catholic. God is also with the Lutherans, Pentecostals, etc.
He mentions that another sign of Christian unity is that Christians of all faith traditions are considered the same by those who are killing Christians in the Middle East and elsewhere. The blood of Catholics and other Christians has been spilled equally and sometimes even together in some places.
My editorial comment:
*If the enemies of Christianity consider both Catholics and non-Catholic Christians to be Christians, why shouldn’t we? *
He never said that all doctrinal differences and divisions with Christianity would cease due to attempts at Christian unity, but that the divisions would become smaller if we work on what unites us instead of being fixated on what divides us.
I like Pope Francis and have a deep respect for him.
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theoda
Guest
God indeed does, but he can speak through man(ecumenical council, infallibility. Etc.)
If you are right, are these 9 saints incorrect?
St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr:** “The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.**”
St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”
St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved."
St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): "All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!"
St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."
St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."
St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!"
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): **Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science."
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Take a special look at the quote at St. Louis Marie de Montfort. Not only did he say Protestants are going to hell, he said anyone who resists this truth goes to hell too!(St. Thomas Aquinas listed 6 sins against the Holy Spirit, one of them being resistance against the known truth)
Also look at St. Augustine’s quote. It is very clear and fits the description of a Protestant perfectly.
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theoda
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Oh also, in addition to the quotes by the saints, it has also been infallibly proclaimed three times!
" There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." -Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
"We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." -Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).
Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: **“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
**
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SAVINGRACE
Guest
That’s lovely Theoda but God makes the final decision. For your spiritual wellbeing I hope you are not going around telling people that Protestants will not enter Heaven.
That is definitely NOT a Catholic teaching.
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Denise1957
Guest
It is possible that Protestants will go to Heaven. Not likely; but possible. I’m glad that Theoda has posted quotes from the saints on the subject. They are politically incorrect, of course. But the saints did say these things, so they can’t really be easily refuted.
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theoda
Guest
You are seriously going to tell me that it is not Catholic teaching when it is backed up by at least 10 saints and infallibly proclaimed three times!
God does make the final decision. Not men. He speaks through ecumenical councils, does he not? Why do you deny the infallibility of an ecumenical council? God is all knowing
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theoda
Guest
Also, please pay attention to this quote too:
St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
You are resisting this truth, the sin against the Holy Spirit.
St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
You are resisting this truth, the sin against the Holy Spirit.
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theoda
Guest
They can by invincible ignorance, but like you said, that is rare in this world.
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shelby_sun
Guest
This is none of my business, but I wonder if you are a cradle Catholic? I was never taught, nor do I actually know of anyone, priest included, that were taught that it is only through the Catholic Church one could be saved. IMO, it seem that those that need to believe that need to belong to some special elite club that are the best of the best. Protestant worship Christ as their savior, just like we do.
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SAVINGRACE
Guest
Neither do I. I don’t know of any Priest or Bishop who teaches that it is impossible or unlikely or improbable that Protestants will be in Heaven.I recall the Bishops Q&A at World Youth Day being asked the exact question and ALL of them answered that you don’t have to be Catholic to get to Heaven and that there will be Protestants in Heaven. They also said that there will be Catholics who will not get into Heaven. We have a higher responsibility and burden of proof so to speak placed on us.
I don’t know where these Catholics get their ideas from?
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theoda
Guest
Is the bishops from World Youth Day infallible? I don’t think so.
I recall the Bishops Q&A at World Youth Day being asked the exact question and ALL of them answered that you don’t have to be Catholic to get to Heaven and that there will be Protestants in Heaven. They also said that there will be Catholics who will not get into Heaven. We have a higher responsibility and burden of proof so to speak placed on us.
I don’t know where these Catholics get their ideas from?
You want to know where I get my ideas from. I get it from ecumenical councils and the saints!
**" There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." -**Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
"We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." -Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).
Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra:** “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”**
What is your defense? It is infallibly proclaimed. What is so difficult to grasp this?
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