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theoda
Guest
Is Saint Augustine of Hippo a cradle Catholic? What about St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Robert Bellarmine? They believe the same thing I do.
Did you read the quotes?
What are your thoughts on the pope's call for Christian unity (video link)
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Did you read the quotes?
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Gaels
Guest
How is Francis going to unite with other Christian groups when there exists deep disagreement within members of his own Catholic Church today on so many issues?
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Fragile
Guest
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theoda
Guest
That video is disturbing. Pope Francis is saying that Catholics are also to blame for for the separation of Christians. Ridiculous. Protestants broke away in the 16th century as a result of their own sin, not the Catholic Church’s.
He is basically equating us with Protestants. It seems to me Pope Francis is thinking if ine Christian Church for all, and it seems like he might be willing to make compromises to other non-Catholic religions). There already is one, true Christian Church.
He is basically equating us with Protestants. It seems to me Pope Francis is thinking if ine Christian Church for all, and it seems like he might be willing to make compromises to other non-Catholic religions). There already is one, true Christian Church.
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SteveVH
Guest
Because Catholicism is not a democracy. The Catholic Church has always had to deal those within and without its own flock who disagree. In fact, the Arians were a majority in the Catholic Church until it was declared heresy.
Pope Francis has no control over those Catholics who might promote agendas which are contrary to Catholic teaching; i.e. contraception, abortion, same sex marriage, etc. These folks will have to personally answer for their abandonment of the faith.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Yes, These is a issue that Catholics are truly divided on. I simply do not focus which of His children God will save and bring home. If your children did not live exactly as would have them live, would you reject them?
I focus on trying to live as God wants me to live and let Him decide who should be saved. The Church would save have to say only those in the Catholic Church will be saved so they would lose people and they would gain those that need to feel exclusive.
I focus on trying to live as God wants me to live and let Him decide who should be saved. The Church would save have to say only those in the Catholic Church will be saved so they would lose people and they would gain those that need to feel exclusive.
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clem456
Guest
It’s not a matter of being politically incorrect or refuting.
Who is refuting those quotes?
It’s a matter of properly articulating what the Church actually teaches. First you must understand what the Church teaches. Sadly, many Catholics interpret teaching for themselves.
Theoda’s first assertion that
is not what the Church teaches. Did the poster say this, or did he not? No amount of chicken dance makes what he said correct.
No Catholic has the right to misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches.
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theoda
Guest
I’m simply quoting it! I don’t misinterpret anything. No Catholic has the right to reject what the Catholic Church teaches. How do you respond to this:
St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."
Not only does this saint say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church(Protestants aren’t in the Catholic Church), it says there is no salvation for those who resist this truth, which all of you are doing.
Protestants aren’t part of the Catholic Church, right? Do you think they’re part of the Catholic Church? Since they aren’t part of the Catholic Church it is impossible to have salvation.
I don’t understand this. It has been infallibly proclaimed three times! And you say it is not what the Catholic Church teaches?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Theoda: I am a De Montfort consecree of nearly 10 years now. I am a 58 year old cradle Catholic woman.I’m simply quoting it! I don’t misinterpret anything. No Catholic has the right to reject what the Catholic Church teaches. How do you respond to this:
St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."
Not only does this saint say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church(Protestants aren’t in the Catholic Church), it says there is no salvation for those who resist this truth, which all of you are doing.
Protestants aren’t part of the Catholic Church, right? Do you think they’re part of the Catholic Church? Since they aren’t part of the Catholic Church it is impossible to have salvation.
I don’t understand this. It has been infallibly proclaimed three times! And you say it is not what the Catholic Church teaches?
You have a misunderstanding here. Check your own catechism.
You say that Protestants ‘are not part of the Catholic Church.’
What does the Catechism say?
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”203 (831)
837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”321 (771, 815, 882)
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”324 (818, 1271, 1399)
In other words, Theoda, all people (and especially those who are members of a Christian faith) are in a CERTAIN THOUGH NOT PERFECT UNION with the Catholic Church.
Protestants who, as many have noted, do not ‘recognize’ the fullness of the Catholic faith, are still members of the Catholic Church (Catholic is universal) even if they do not realize it.
If they are saved, it will be through the Church. Because, in the case of Protestants especially, they already are in communion with the Catholic Church.
Where you seem to have trouble is that you are assuming, especially in your original statement, that somehow ‘all’ Protestants know that the Catholic Church is the One True Church but deliberately reject her. If there were the case, they would indeed be in danger of hell if they did not repent.
But a nonCatholic Christian who does not yet have full understanding that the Catholic Church IS the true Church, and lives his or her life as a Protestant, is NOT DELIBERATELY REJECTING THE CATHOLIC FAITH (since he does not truly know it) and will, if saved, be saved through the Catholic Church, despite having lived life as a Protestant. . .or a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, pagan, or even atheist!!
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theoda
Guest
Which Protestant doesn’t reject the Catholic faith? I said before they can be saved by invincible ignorance if that is what you are talking about, but in this world, almost all Protestants are exposed to Catholicism. I am talking about most Protestants, who have been exposed to Catholicism, but still reject it.
I completely agree, if a Protestant wasn’t really exposed to the Catholic faith, then he can be saved by invincible ignorance.
You seem to be under the impression that most, or many non-Catholic western Christians belong to their church in “protest” or "defiance of the Catholic Church. This just isn’t the case.
Almost no protestants are exposed to the Catholic faith. The number who have read the Catholic Catechism is an infinitesimal fraction. Most non-Lutheran protestants have little knowledge of Lutheranism, much less Catholicism.
Most members of protestant churches today are members of that church and communion because they were raised in it, or married into it, or it was the first communion they were exposed to. Most view the Catholic parish down the street as just another church some friend of their’s goes to.
If Catholic catechesis is as bad as I’ve heard some Catholics here relate, or as bad as Lutheran catechesis is in some places, I’d say there’s a significant number of Catholics who haven’t really been exposed to the Catholic faith. We Lutherans have a similar problem.
Jon
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
de Montfort is actually holding a declaration by Pope Boniface VIII in UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302):I’m simply quoting it! I don’t misinterpret anything. No Catholic has the right to reject what the Catholic Church teaches. How do you respond to this:
St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."
Not only does this saint say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church(Protestants aren’t in the Catholic Church), it says there is no salvation for those who resist this truth, which all of you are doing.
Protestants aren’t part of the Catholic Church, right? Do you think they’re part of the Catholic Church? Since they aren’t part of the Catholic Church it is impossible to have salvation.
I don’t understand this. It has been infallibly proclaimed three times! And you say it is not what the Catholic Church teaches?
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Peter_J
Guest
I guess this is why I don’t like to start threads with “What are your thoughts on …” You just never know what kind of responses you might get.
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Peter_J
Guest
No, but I’d guess they care a lot of weight with a lot of people who frequent the CA website (including the CA forums).
And I happen to agree with them vis-a-vis Fragile’s citation (not that anyone asked me
).
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Peter_J
Guest
I think we’re getting off-topic, but since you posted the above comment I have to ask: how do you know that that is infallible? (Keep in mind that Vatican I said that every ex cathedra statement is infallible, but it never said how many ex cathedra statements there have been – or even whether there have been any!)
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Denise1957
Guest
I agree. I think that there are a lot of Protestants who have been exposed to the Catholic faith, but reject it. I don’t know many Protestants who have not been exposed to the Catholic Faith. And since they are still Protestants, they reject the Catholic faith.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
:nope:
Denise-
I grew up in a Protestant home in the South. We were not fundamentalists - we were Methodists. Both my parents were college educated. Dad was an engineer; mom graduated summa cum laude in nursing.
Yet, I knew almost nothing of Catholicism until I was in college. I think the closest I got to Catholicism was reading the Canterbury Tales in high school.
I think the same could be said for large portions of the country, and even those who have had more exposure to Catholicism have not gotten true Catholic doctrine but someone else’s false interpretations of what we believe.
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Denise1957
Guest
All that any of us can do is to attest to that of our own personal experience. I too didn’t know much about Catholicism before I converted. But that’s not the case with most Protestants I know. Certainly there have been quite a few Protestants who have visited Catholic Answers and learned about the Catholic faith, but still reject it. Some have converted, thanks be to God (and Catholic Answers). But they are in a minority, I think.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Just because they don’t covert does not mean they reject Catholicism! My in-laws are Protestant and were happy my husband converted and that our children are being raised in the Catholic church. All of his non-Catholic friend happily welcomed me into their group of couples.
Listening to you speak I can see why Protestant would want nothing to do with you and your faith if you are going around telling them the only way to be saved is through the Catholic church. You make it sound like a cult. Funny thing is, not long ago someone told me Catholic do not believe that and where am I reading those comments…yet here you are.
Do you really think Christ died on the cross for the very small minority of Catholic who believe that only through the Catholic church one can be saved. He is going to let all the Protestants who praised and worshipped Him and served Him all their lives go to Hell. Really? Of course the Church once had to teach that in order to try to stop people from leaving Church, something that has now hurt the Church.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
So far, but let’s keep at it!
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