What are your thoughts on the Reformation?

[MillTownCath]

From what I’ve read, it seems like the Catholic Church was quite a mess and rather corrupt at the time of the Reformation. However, it is quite likely that Luther would actually support the Church of today, but there are thousands of various protestant sects and Christianity is so divided. God certainly did not want this to happen.

So how do you think of the reformation? Generally good, with some bad effects? Generally bad, with some good effects?

 

[gcnuss]

Milltown,

You ask a question that cannot be answered easily or in just a few words but I’ll try to give you my thoughts.

First, I think it is sad that the earthly expression of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church is divided. Our witness to the non-Christian world is weakened by the existence of our divisions.

Second, given the social, political, economic, and religious tenor of the late medieval period, it was probably inevitable that some sort of change was coming. There were, unfortunately, few if any leaders to guide that change who did not put their self-interests first. The churches (Catholic or Protestant) became pawns used by political leaders to further their own interests and vice versa.

Third, as a Lutheran and a spiritual heir of the Reformation, I believe that the Reformation is ongoing and that it will be completed only when unity among all Christians is restored. I pray for that to happen although I have little hope of seeing it in my lifetime. I rejoice in the work of the Lutheran/Roman Catholic dialogues as they seek to explore and to overcome the things that divide us.

These are a few thoughts although this is a discussion that could fill volumes.

 

[smichhertz]

So how do you think of the reformation? Generally good, with some bad effects? Generally bad, with some good effects?

Generally bad. Jesus never intended for His Church to be divided like it is today.

 

[Scoobyshme]

I think the Reformation, in retrospect, was a disaster. With the literally thousands of man-made, doctrinally disunified denominations, all believing something different and lacking the fullness of Christ’s message and five of the Sacraments, one can only hope that one day they will convert back to Christ’s Church.

 

[followingtheway]

So how do you think of the reformation? Generally good, with some bad effects? Generally bad, with some good effects?

Good affects - The abuse of simony and indulgences have stopped and/or been minimized.

Bad affects - The new doctrines that arose from it, and the rejection of Catholic doctrines, and there are thousands of Protestant denominations that disagree with each other, and that people broke away from the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church that Christ founded.

So its affects are generally bad.

God bless,

David

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Any ‘positive’ effects of the Reformation (so-called) could have been and should have been achieved without Christendom splintering itself into lots of pride-filled pockets of dissent.

And of course the negative effects are simply overwhelming in their damage over the past 5 centuries and for who nows how much longer.

I know–and love-- many faithful Protestant Christians, God bless them, and not a few struggling and at least currently less-than-faithful Catholic Christians, God bless them as well. . .

But how much closer we’d be to the kingdom of Heaven on earth if we were ONE instead of MANY. And so our distance so much farther away now is the deepest and most terrible effect of that “Reformation.”

 

[JonNC]

=Tantum ergo;8088787]Any ‘positive’ effects of the Reformation (so-called) could have been and should have been achieved without Christendom splintering itself into lots of pride-filled pockets of dissent.

And of course the negative effects are simply overwhelming in their damage over the past 5 centuries and for who nows how much longer

If only men on both sides had been willing to consider the sad effects of their actions.

I know–and love-- many faithful Protestant Christians, God bless them, and not a few struggling and at least currently less-than-faithful Catholic Christians, God bless them as well. . .

And the same for the many faithful Catholics.

But how much closer we’d be to the kingdom of Heaven on earth if we were ONE instead of MANY. And so our distance so much farther away now is the deepest and most terrible effect of that “Reformation.”

Agreed. Thanks be to God that in these recent decades, progress has begun on healing these wounds to His Church. Pray for unity.

Jon

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I have come to recognize several different reformations and not one monolithic Reformation and I have differing opinions on each of them. Was there moral corruption within the Church among the clergy and laity? My answer would be yes. Were there abuses of doctrine (i.e. The abuse of Indulgences), yes. Was there some validity to some of the reformers claims about such? Yes. Does the moral failings of man justify the splintering of Christendom? Not in my fallible opinion which is why I side with the Catholic Church in this matter.

God bless

 

[Bluegoat]

But who says it was really the Reformers that caused the splinter? One could equally say the CC (or its representatives) caused it by failing to make any move to address the problems that had been ongoing for several hundred years.

I think if similar conditions existed now, many pious Catholics would conclude they could not in good conscience remain formally Catholic, at least in the short-term.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

At the time of the reformation and shortly thereafter, there was within the Catholic church the ‘counter-reformation’ in which many of the abuses were corrected. If the reformation was primarily about abuses in the Catholic church one would think that the reformers would have happily reunited with it.

To me a major effect of the reformation was acceptance of the idea that individuals could determine Christian doctrine based on their private interpretation of scripture, without taking into consideration the constant teaching of the church since the time of the apostles. This could only result in further divisions.

I have heard it said that the reformation was a tragic necessity but Protestants cannot see it as tragic and Catholics cannot see it as a necessity. I think there’s a lot of truth in this statement.

 

[kylemccloughan]

From what I’ve read, it seems like the Catholic Church was quite a mess and rather corrupt at the time of the Reformation. However, it is quite likely that Luther would actually support the Church of today, but there are thousands of various protestant sects and Christianity is so divided. God certainly did not want this to happen.

So how do you think of the reformation? Generally good, with some bad effects? Generally bad, with some good effects?

I believe the Reformation was inevitable.

 

[kylemccloughan]

I think the Reformation, in retrospect, was a disaster. With the literally thousands of man-made, doctrinally disunified denominations, all believing something different and lacking the fullness of Christ’s message and five of the Sacraments, one can only hope that one day they will convert back to Christ’s Church.

I think that your statement here is a bit over zealous and incorrect. The thousands of denominations really fall under about eight in total and they all don’t believe different things that separate them. They all don’t have a different interpretation of Scripture either. This is something that has been blown way out of perspective. Prideful actions that keep many of them separate? For sure. But, many of them really aren’t as separate as it would otherwise sound.

 

[plaintruth]

Reformation brought freedom and empowerment. it recalled back the basic meaning of the word ‘church’ which is are the people of God themselves, 2 or 3 gathered in His name. The church is not the organized religious hierarchy. The ideas that all are equal (rich and poor) in the sight of God. That the Kingdom of God is not just the church but encompasses all of God’s creation.

Honestly it brought forth the ideas of individualism and democracy which never florished in the hierarchical structure of the RCC (which preferred kingdoms and monarchy obviously similar to its structure). It brought freedom, equality and responsibility.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

From what I’ve read, it seems like the Catholic Church was quite a mess and rather corrupt at the time of the Reformation. However, it is quite likely that Luther would actually support the Church of today, but there are thousands of various protestant sects and Christianity is so divided. God certainly did not want this to happen.

So how do you think of the reformation? Generally good, with some bad effects? Generally bad, with some good effects?

The Reformation was bad in the immense violence it engendered, and the long division of the Church, along with the misplaced ideas some Protestants have about the Catholic church. It was easily the most violent episode in Church history, leaving the crusades for dead for lethality.

For a summary of some Reformation violence, the following site has information. Bear in mind it’s an atheist site, so take it with some discernment.

atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_reformation.htm

However the positive developments were greater Biblical scholarship with medieval analogical pursuits not being pursued by Protestants, and the hastening of democracy, which would not have occurred so rapidly under the old Catholic regimes. For whatever reason, it was the British model, from which the Americans drew their basic ideas even if they rebelled against it, which most rapidly developed democratic principles. So without the Reformation, modern society would be very different.

The problem faced by the church now is to reunify fragmented Christendom, while at the same time acknowledging that democracy is here to stay, unless Islam gets the upper hand. Then we’ll once again see a theocracy, but we’ve seen what it will entail - Jihad, Sharia Law, inequality and mistreatment of women, polygamy, the loss of freedom, fatalism, and so on.

So the Reformation had both good and bad aspects, and they’ve lasted for centuries.

 

[Kismetji]

I think all historical events are good. It’s the interpretation people bring to the table which makes them icky or tired or hairbrained or wrong.

If you see it all as one big Dance, is there one part of the dance that’s worse than any other? Or is it a continuous Pattern?

 

[Scoobyshme]

I think that your statement here is a bit over zealous and incorrect. The thousands of denominations really fall under about eight in total and they all don’t believe different things that separate them. They all don’t have a different interpretation of Scripture either. This is something that has been blown way out of perspective. Prideful actions that keep many of them separate? For sure. But, many of them really aren’t as separate as it would otherwise sound.

Obviously, if they all believed 8 sets of doctrine, there would be 8 denominations, not tens of thousands.

I am reminded of Gal. 1:8, that says, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!”

It is not acceptable to have even one wrong interpretation. That’s heresy. Whether any particular individual is culpable for the heresy they believe is an entirely different question.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I think all historical events are good. It’s the interpretation people bring to the table which makes them icky or tired or hairbrained or wrong.

If you see it all as one big Dance, is there one part of the dance that’s worse than any other? Or is it a continuous Pattern?

That’s all right from an armchair viewpoint. Try having the same viewpoint if you’re being burned at the stake for heresy, mining salt in a Siberian gulag, or going over the top in the Battle of the Somme.

 

[GraceSofia]

What are my thoughts on the Reformation?
It was generally bad, with disastrous results.

Somebody mentioned that it perhaps hastened democracy.
But don’t forget the Magna Carta which predates the Reformation and influenced the American colonists when they drew up their Constitution. We might have had a swifter and less bloody road to democracy in the West without the Reformation. Could be argued that the Reformation eventually led to the Reign of Terror in France.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I think the Reformation is a very complicated historical process. There were both good and bad elements, both for Protestants and Catholics alike.

I don’t think there is any shame in saying that the Roman Catholic Church was in a serious state of corruption. Even divine institutions are stacked with fallible men, and there will be errors. *

(On a side note, a professor explained to me his interesting theory on why the corruption was so pervasive. He alleges that during the outbreaks of the Black Death, a lot of clergymen and Church officials tended to stay in the cities - while everybody else fled - to tend to those who were sick, ail, and could not flee. Because of this, catastrophically high proportions of Church officials died, creating a massive shortage in clergy. The Church had to respond by ordaining incompetent men in order to simply fill posts, and this created a wide array of corruption, which was unforeseen. I think it’s interesting!)*

Whether one believes that the Protestant Reformation was in itself good, I think a case can be made that at the very least, the upheaval encouraged a long overdue process of reform. Although the Catholic Reformation wasn’t a 100% ‘stick-it-to-Protestants’ process, I think that in the beginning, the reform was certainly a response to early Protestant objections on corruption. Which is good, I would say.

 

[Kismetji]

That’s all right from an armchair viewpoint. Try having the same viewpoint if you’re being burned at the stake for heresy, mining salt in a Siberian gulag, or going over the top in the Battle of the Somme.

Even then, it is 100% Good.

It is my ego or false individual consciousness which shirks away from pain and misery.

Absolutely all historical events are Good, regardless what my personal opinion of them might be…