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kylemccloughan
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kylemccloughan;8095204:
I just made a statement quite similar but yet contrasting to yours.
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hizstory
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An internal reformation was needed, and indeed was already under way. The schism that resulted from the Protestant Reformation was a tragedy and a scandal that has caused Christianity to lose credibility over the centuries.
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Roman_Catholic_1
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You are narrow-minded in your âwhyâ of the reformation. There were many reasons as to the âwhyâ not just the one you presented. One of which was a deep anti-clericalism especially in Germany. Was it the sole reason? No. My point was that this feeling was established in Germany and in Europe well before Martin Luther. Or is it your argument that it started with Luther?
God bless
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GKC
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Roman_Catholic_1
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You must be mixing me up with someone else. I was wondering about this statement:I just made a statement quite similar but yet contrasting to yours.
I would argue this but I first wanted to know what you meant by âout of the reformationâ. Were you including the wars and revolts or just those killed in the Protestant controlled territories?
God bless
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adrift
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The Spanish Inquisition was founded in 1478 by Ferdinand and Isabella to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms and was under the direct control of the Spanish monarchy not the Pope.
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adrift
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John Newman âto be deep in history is to be Catholic.â History bears out the Catholic Chruch. If you knew history, you would know this. Papal infalibility began with Peter as rock. The gates of hell would not prevail against the Church Jesus built upon Peter. Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit which is infalibility there could be no truth.
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Bob_Crowley
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Bob_Crowley
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In relation to my post, this is the Wikipedia entry re. Casualties and disease fpr the Thirty Years War, and while politics inevitably came into play, it was still an outworking of the Reformation. But you wonât hear much said about this in Protestant dominated educational systems.
âSo great was the devastation brought about by the war that estimates put the reduction of population in the German states at about 15% to 30%.[47] Some regions were affected much more than others.[48] For example, WĂźrttemberg lost three-quarters of its population during the war.[49] In the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two-thirds of the population died.[50] The male population of the German states was reduced by almost half.[51] The population of the Czech lands declined by a third due to war, disease, famine and the expulsion of Protestant Czechs.[52][53] Much of the destruction of civilian lives and property was caused by the cruelty and greed of mercenary soldiers, many of whom were rich commanders and poor soldiers.[54] Villages were especially easy prey to the marauding armies. Those that survived, like the small village of Drais near Mainz, would take almost a hundred years to recover. The Swedish armies alone may have destroyed up to 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns.[55] The war caused serious dislocations to both the economies and populations of central Europe, but may have done no more than seriously exacerbate changes that had begun earlier.[56][57]â
âSo great was the devastation brought about by the war that estimates put the reduction of population in the German states at about 15% to 30%.[47] Some regions were affected much more than others.[48] For example, WĂźrttemberg lost three-quarters of its population during the war.[49] In the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two-thirds of the population died.[50] The male population of the German states was reduced by almost half.[51] The population of the Czech lands declined by a third due to war, disease, famine and the expulsion of Protestant Czechs.[52][53] Much of the destruction of civilian lives and property was caused by the cruelty and greed of mercenary soldiers, many of whom were rich commanders and poor soldiers.[54] Villages were especially easy prey to the marauding armies. Those that survived, like the small village of Drais near Mainz, would take almost a hundred years to recover. The Swedish armies alone may have destroyed up to 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns.[55] The war caused serious dislocations to both the economies and populations of central Europe, but may have done no more than seriously exacerbate changes that had begun earlier.[56][57]â
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Bob_Crowley
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In fact, I sometimes wonder why we call Christ the âPrince of Peaceâ, when I consider all the violence that has either been done in His name, or as a result of religious conflict in one way or another. As He Himself saidâŚ
Mathew 10:34 (NIV) âDo not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Mathew 10:34 (NIV) âDo not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
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GraceSofia
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I believe that in the English-speaking world it was a matter of the victors getting to write history, and for the monarchs of England a political matter. Hhmmm⌠I wonder what little Italian school children learn about that era?
You probably believe this because it is what youâve heard. I used to believe it, too.
Others have given info about the Inquisition, so I will give some on the other side. Not to get into a silly fight about who was worse because that goes nowhere fast, but just in case you are like so many who truly have never come across any information about the Catholic martyrs.
Protestant Inquisition
I wonât give quotes, but you may find this site about English Catholic martyrs interesting: tyburnconvent.org.uk/martyrs/martyrs_main.html
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Kaninchen
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Possibly that the English were amateurs - the Italian states had murder and mayhem galore (including the Papal States - ever heard of Cesare Borgia?) but rather more artistically, as one would expect.
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kylemccloughan
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But you havenât proven any of that. This is the point! You can show me nothing in Scripture that says what you have said regarding the pope. nothing.
And the dogmas of Mary were not declared until centuries after the Early Church. This is a matter of fact Adrift. A matter of history. Refute that with evidence please.
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kylemccloughan
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And what happened to the first Archbishop of Canterbury?? And Latimore and Ridley??I believe that in the English-speaking world it was a matter of the victors getting to write history, and for the monarchs of England a political matter. Hhmmm⌠I wonder what little Italian school children learn about that era?
You probably believe this because it is what youâve heard. I used to believe it, too.
Others have given info about the Inquisition, so I will give some on the other side. Not to get into a silly fight about who was worse because that goes nowhere fast, but just in case you are like so many who truly have never come across any information about the Catholic martyrs.
Protestant Inquisition
I wonât give quotes, but you may find this site about English Catholic martyrs interesting: tyburnconvent.org.uk/martyrs/martyrs_main.html
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kylemccloughan
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josephback
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Generally bad, with the Council of Trent being a good effect. And it was the Protestant REVOLUTION or REVOLT, not Reformation. The only thing they reformed was theology, and it proved to be a disaster.
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GKC
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kylemccloughan
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Council of Trent?? It was a pity party of sorts that did nothing but anathesize everything and everyone the pope didnât like and didnât like interferring in his political circus. If you wish to be insulting to the Reformation by calling (shouting) it a REVOLUTION or REVOLT, then we can editorialize a bit as well on things such as Trent.
Had the Church called the council when it should have - earlier on - perhaps the Reformation, Revolution, Revolt, whatever you wish to call it (historically its known as the Reformation), perhaps the whole affair could have been resolved. But alas, just as with Luther, there was lots of pride and arrogance in Rome, too.
Jon
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Roman_Catholic_1
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"josephback:
I tend to agree with josephback in what he was ultimately trying to say; the Council of Trent was a good thing to come out of the Reformation. Perhaps it came too late but like one of my history professors use to say (or maybe my college football coach), you canât be late until you show up. I disagree with calling the Reformation a revolt or revolution though because it tends (like in this case) to hinder instead of advance any kind of discussion.
God bless
I donât think it would be best to turn this into a school yard name calling match. People were involved on both sides and because of this we can all admit sins were committed and mistakes were made on both sides.
I tend to agree with josephback in what he was ultimately trying to say; the Council of Trent was a good thing to come out of the Reformation. Perhaps it came too late but like one of my history professors use to say (or maybe my college football coach
), you canât be late until you show up. I disagree with calling the Reformation a revolt or revolution though because it tends (like in this case) to hinder instead of advance any kind of discussion.God bless
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