What Bad Experiences you have had with Wicca?

[TOP]

Karen, Is there any connection to an element of nudism and an element of Wicca? And are you familiar with the term “skyclad” as well as “as a sign that ye be really free, ye shall be naked in your rites”. I live down the road from a nudist resort btw. Tim

 

[KarenNC]

Karen, Is there any connection to an element of nudism and an element of Wicca? And are you familiar with the term “skyclad” as well as “as a sign that ye be really free, ye shall be naked in your rites”. I live down the road from a nudist resort btw. Tim

There are some parts of Wicca that do indeed have their rituals “skyclad” at times. There are also those that do not. My understanding was that Gardner was indeed a naturalist and incorporated this into his practices. At the Wiccan rituals that I have attended (which admittedly have not been copious), all the participants were fully clothed.

 

[KarenNC]

I only highlighted three that can be contributed to all that practice “the Craft”.

Sorry, Bennie, with the funky colors and font sizes in your message, I can barely read most of your post, much less see anything as being highlighted. Maybe you could try again?

 

[TOP]

Without being detailed and possibly bearing false witness, I am to understand that, in this situation, possible deviant sexual encounters are taken place as well. Deviant in the light of Church teachings and “traditional morals”. I know this is kind of vague, but is this an element of Wicca as well?

 

[KarenNC]

Without being detailed and possibly bearing false witness, I am to understand that, in this situation, possible deviant sexual encounters are taken place as well. Deviant in the light of Church teachings and “traditional morals”. I know this is kind of vague, but is this an element of Wicca as well?

I’m afraid a Wiccan will have to answer that one. I have personally never encountered such in the Wiccan rituals I have attended.

 

[IanCorrigan]

Karen, Is there any connection to an element of nudism and an element of Wicca? And are you familiar with the term “skyclad” as well as “as a sign that ye be really free, ye shall be naked in your rites”. I live down the road from a nudist resort btw. Tim

Yes, as Karen said, nudity is common in Gardnerianism and some other traditional versions of Wicca, but most ritual is done in robes, among traditionals, or even in street clothes by more modern eclectics.

“Skyclad” is one example of Hindu influence in Wicca. The term comes from tantra - digambari: “clothed in space”. Gardnerian Wicca has a number of influences from Tantra, including the focus of its worship on a mated pair of deities.

While my own experience in traditional Wicca was in robed covens I’ve been a skinny-dipper and casual naturist all my life. I think nudity taboos are foolish and actually increase prurience and unhealthy sexual attitudes.
Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

Without being detailed and possibly bearing false witness, I am to understand that, in this situation, possible deviant sexual encounters are taken place as well. Deviant in the light of Church teachings and “traditional morals”. I know this is kind of vague, but is this an element of Wicca as well?

If deviance is defined as anything except missionary sex for purposes of procreation, then I suppose Wicca is no more or less deviant than the average american household.

In some traditions there is a custom of ritual intercourse between the priest and priestess, but this is more usually reduced to a symbolic act involving a wand and chalice. In general Wiccan rites do not include ‘orgies’ or any public display of sexual activity. For the record, neither does most nudity or naturism.

However it is certainly true that Wicca does not cling to what a Catholic might mean by ‘traditional morals’. Most Wiccans would probably think that sex between affectionate partners, with or without marriage, and probably with a clear intention of avoiding pregnancy, is both normal and desirable, and likely to lead to good in ones life.

Ian

 

[KarenNC]

“Skyclad” is one example of Hindu influence in Wicca. The term comes from tantra - digambari: “clothed in space”. Gardnerian Wicca has a number of influences from Tantra, including the focus of its worship on a mated pair of deities.

I defer to Ian’s knowledge of Wicca (which is much greater than my own, as he has actively practiced it for many years) and withdraw my objection to the article Bennie referenced in post #208, at least as far as it refers to Hindu influences on Wicca. I was not aware of them in particular nor have I read much about them. I will leave it to Ian, if he is so inclined, to address whether that article’s treatment of the connection is accurate.

 

[TOP]

Thanks for the answers. Is it true that Wicca is considered a “fertility religion” and a key belief in Wicca is that the goddesses and gods are able to manifest in personal form, most importantly through the bodies of Priestesses and Priests? From a Catholic perspective, this seems to be a mockery of “In Persona Christi Capitis (in the Person of Christ the Head)”, that is possible by divine commandment. The Catholic belief in transubutation of the Eucharist was also given by divine commandment at the last supper in Catholic view. Written: Pope Clement I “Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]). Many others through to Augustine “[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]). These are just two ECF views on apostolic succession. I didn’t even get into the Eucharist. From what doctrine, document, tradition or etc. does Wiccan clergy have authority? Tim

 

[IanCorrigan]

**Thanks for the answers. Is it true that Wicca is considered a “fertility religion” and a key belief in Wicca is that the goddesses and gods are able to manifest in personal form, most importantly through the bodies of Priestesses and Priests? **

Yes, the term ‘fertility religion’ is often used for wicca. Remember, though, that fertility means prosperity - the bounty of good harvests and growing herds. In a modern context, Wiccans work for health, wealth and wisdom. Sometimes the symbolism is sexual - it’s the bull and cow that make the herds - sometimes it isn’t.

Yes, traditional Wicca practices a rite in which the Goddess (especially) speaks in the form and voice of the priestess. It’s rather more rare for the same to be done with the God.

**From a Catholic perspective, this seems to be a mockery of “In Persona Christi Capitis (in the Person of Christ the Head)”, that is possible by divine commandment. **

It’s more likely an reflection of traditional oracular practices common to africa, india and ancient europe. The polytheistic world is full of examples of priests and priestesses who bring the spirit of a deity into their own bodies, and speak in the deity’s voice.

From what doctrine, document, tradition or etc. does Wiccan clergy have authority? Tim

‘Authority’ isn’t really a term in use in Wiccan theology. The idea that a human would need some special dispensation to experiment with spiritual practice, find what works for them, implement it, and teach it is alien to Pagan ways. Since there can be no One True Right and Only Way, all kinds of methods and mythic patterns are readily adopted. As the old Wiccan song says “My skin, my bones my heretic heart are my authority.”

That said, many wiccan traditions practice a lineage of initiation, in which training and traditional leadership are passed down in an apprenticeship-type system. My own Wiccan ‘degree work’ (as we say) was a three year course of reading, meditation and ritual practice, leading to the authority to initiate in my specific tradition.

But even without initiation, Wiccans and Pagans don’t see a need for ‘authority’ to back up skill and wisdom. If a leader has the latter things, we don’t care about authority - if she lacks them, no authority can matter.
Ian

 

[TOP]

But even without initiation, Wiccans and Pagans don’t see a need for ‘authority’ to back up skill and wisdom. If a leader has the latter things, we don’t care about authority - if she lacks them, no authority can matter.
Ian Again, thanks for the fast response. From a Catholic’s perspective, this unyeilding to authority is a reflection of the devil and the fallen angel’s, in refusing to serve God. Again , in the same perspective , the world is in a falling state as is man. This past sunday a Catholic Priest, in his homily said,“you have God, the devil and the world. The world is now much more formible today.” But even still, as christians we are not to hate the devil and the world, for even St. Micheal didn’t revile the devil , but said may God rebuke you. So a christian having a bad experience with Wicca may attribute it to the world or the devil. Which christian revelation says both are to pass away. Tim

 

[TOP]

Sorry I didn’t give biblical or doctrinal referances, but can on request. Tim

 

[Bennie_P]

Sorry, Bennie, with the funky colors and font sizes in your message, I can barely read most of your post, much less see anything as being highlighted. Maybe you could try again?

I think you need a new monitor or computer there are no funky colors or font sizes:shrug:

 

[Bennie_P]

.

It is not the claims that Gardner created Wicca that I found glaringly inaccurate in your original article, it is the claim that it is a survivor of a pre-Christian religion and that it is based on Hinduism: “Wicca, the craft, or the craft of the wise, is an ancient witchcraft religion which honor the gods of nature.” and “Wicca is a marriage between Witchcraft and Hinduism.” I would like to see citations of evidence for the use of Hinduism by Gardner, in particular.

.

I had forgotten about given you any type of citations on this Hindu thing , but I don’t know if you will accept his knowledge on the subject or not?
[

](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=40946)

Originally posted by IanCorrigan

 

[KarenNC]

I had forgotten about given you any type of citations on this Hindu thing , but I don’t know if you will accept his knowledge on the subject or not?
%between%

Read post number 245, posted several hours ago.

 

[KarenNC]

I think you need a new monitor or computer there are no funky colors or font sizes:shrug:

Often your posts come across in a mix of extremely tiny fonts and in 3-5 different colors, if one counts the colors of the signatures. Could be that you are cutting and pasting? Don’t know, as not all of them come out that way.

 

[Bennie_P]

No mention of beliefs there at all that I see, only visible manifestations. So, it would seem to me if the person, regardless of religion, is exhibiting charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self control and chastity, then it would be awkward to claim, by your own religion’s standards, that the Deity they are worshipping is Satan.

I am content to let such be a standard by which my own actions should be judged—there is nothing there that is in conflict with my religion.

.

But once you again leave out some very important points, and some of these things also are not in conflict with Wicca, but are with Chrisitianty.

I say then: Walk in the spirit: and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh: For these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects (heresys), Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. Gal 5:16 - 21

I only highlighted three that can be contributed to all that practice “the Craft”.

From the People’s New Testament Commentary

**

Gal 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh . . . are these. The tree is known by its fruits. We show our fruits whether we are of the flesh or Spirit. The works of the flesh are first given. Paul names (1) Three sins of sensuality; (2) two spiritual sins of false religion; (3) sins against our fellow men, of which nine are specified; (4) sins of intemperance, of which two are named. The sins of sensuality were sanctioned by the heathen religion in the worship of Venus, and sanctioned by the purest heathen moralists. Christianity had to breast the current of the whole world. It differs from heathen morality as day from night. Witchcraft. Sorcery or magic, whether a superstition or deception, was prevalent in all the ancient world. Drunkenness. A common sin of all ages. Revellings. Any kind of riotous or unseemly conduct; carousals.
As I have also told you in time past. As before, when in Galatia, so now he tells them again that none who do these things can expect to be saved.

**
Unlike Wiccans Christians must look at the situation in full context -

 

[Bennie_P]

Often your posts come across in a mix of extremely tiny fonts and in 3-5 different colors, if one counts the colors of the signatures. Could be that you are cutting and pasting? Don’t know, as not all of them come out that way.

I re-posted, the only thing I cut and paste is Scripture and then a source qouted commentary, but font size is larger then your post being quoted. The only thing in color other then my signature was the question which seemed you were able to see, I changed the color back to black.You are not using a screen reader or other device to read the screen are you?

 

[KarenNC]

I re-posted, the only thing I cut and paste is Scripture and then a source qouted commentary, but font size is larger then your post being quoted. The only thing in color other then my signature was the question which seemed you were able to see, I changed the color back to black.You are not using a screen reader or other device to read the screen are you?

Nope, just IE and a 17 inch monitor, same as with all the other posts which all come out legible. Let me try cutting and pasting to see if it makes a difference (btw, no funky colors at least, though the font is still tiny). I could see all of it, it was just really tiny and no highlighting showed up either time. It comes out looking the same in Firefox, just as a further check.

Your post

But once you again leave out some very important points, and some of these things also are not in conflict with Wicca, but are with Chrisitianty.

I say then: Walk in the spirit: and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh: For these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects (heresys), Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. Gal 5:16 - 21

I only highlighted three that can be contributed to all that practice “the Craft”.

From the People’s New Testament Commentary

Quote:
Gal 5:19-21 -
Now the works of the flesh . . . are these. The tree is known by its fruits. We show our fruits whether we are of the flesh or Spirit. The works of the flesh are first given. Paul names (1) Three sins of sensuality; (2) two spiritual sins of false religion; (3) sins against our fellow men, of which nine are specified; (4) sins of intemperance, of which two are named. The sins of sensuality were sanctioned by the heathen religion in the worship of Venus, and sanctioned by the purest heathen moralists. Christianity had to breast the current of the whole world. It differs from heathen morality as day from night. Witchcraft. Sorcery or magic, whether a superstition or deception, was prevalent in all the ancient world. Drunkenness. A common sin of all ages. Revellings. Any kind of riotous or unseemly conduct; carousals.
As I have also told you in time past. As before, when in Galatia, so now he tells them again that none who do these things can expect to be saved.

Unlike Wiccans Christians must look at the situation in full context -

Interesting. It came out normal sized (but with no highlighting). Who knows? I haven’t had that happen when I have cut and pasted. Curious.

As to answering you, so we also have the negative fruits of the flesh:

"fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects (heresys), Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. "

Okay, if we are going to judge each by its own standards (which seems fair), then idolatry and heresies would definitely be different and fornication is kind of dependent on your definition of chastity. Witchcrafts, depends. Not all Wiccans are involved in spellcasting (particulary true if one is expanding this to other Neopagan groups). Enmities, immodesty, uncleanness, drunkenness, dissensions, revellings, contentions, quarrels—yes, have to admit I haven’t met many Wiccans who didn’t enjoy revelling, some drank more than they should at times, and some were slobs, but not all. Pretty much as given to not always getting along with everyone as much as the next person. Murders, no, none of those, and most weren’t afflicted with luxury . Not sure what to make of “emulations,” I have to admit.

All in all, just as with Christians or those of any religion (or none), it looks like one has to look at the individual and see whether the positives outweigh the negatives to see if the fruits are good or not. Not all Christians show only the positive ones and not all Wiccans or other Neopagans show only the negative ones. There isn’t a weighting given in these passages, which I find interesting. Evidently being sloppy and arguing is on a par with idolatry and witchcraft?

Does that address your point?

 

[Bennie_P]

Okay, if we are going to judge each by its own standards (which seems fair), then idolatry and heresies would definitely be different and fornication is kind of dependent on your definition of chastity. Witchcrafts, depends. Not all Wiccans are involved in spellcasting (particulary true if one is expanding this to other Neopagan groups). Enmities, immodesty, uncleanness, drunkenness, dissensions, revellings, contentions, quarrels—yes, have to admit I haven’t met many Wiccans who didn’t enjoy revelling, some drank more than they should at times, and some were slobs, but not all. Pretty much as given to not always getting along with everyone as much as the next person. Murders, no, none of those, and most weren’t afflicted with luxury . Not sure what to make of “emulations,” I have to admit.

All in all, just as with Christians or those of any religion (or none), it looks like one has to look at the individual and see whether the positives outweigh the negatives to see if the fruits are good or not. Not all Christians show only the positive ones and not all Wiccans or other Neopagans show only the negative ones. There isn’t a weighting given in these passages, which I find interesting. Evidently being sloppy and arguing is on a par with idolatry and witchcraft?

Does that address your point?

All sinful behavoir, more or less, has even weight as to keeping one from producing the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there is nothing which one can not turn away from and find redemptiion and freedom. Anything that keeps ones heart away from God can be the killer.

What you interpret as sloppy (uncleanness)has to do moral and physical impurity; and luxury = lasiviousness/lustfulness.

The worst thing about paganisn though for people involved in it - they seem to dismiss eternity -