What "belief" in Jesus?

[uglygal]

is necessary to not be “damned”? What is sufficient?

For example; belief that he is the second god of the Trinity, belief he is one with God (modalism), belief that he is a great teacher, belief that he is just a prophet, belief that he is the messiah only ???

where is the line drawn?

Thankyou

 

[BlaineTog]

is necessary to not be “damned”?

No. Very helpful, but not strictly speaking necessary. If you think it’s true that he is who he says he is, though, then it is necessary.

What is sufficient?

God’s grace and your willingness to accept it. But if you mean what must you do to enter the kingdom of heaven, the single most important thing is love, though this is an unhelpful way of thinking about things. The point is to strive as hard as you can to enter.

 

[reen12]

quote: uglygal

what “belief” in Jesus?
is necessary to not be “damned”? What is sufficient?
…where is the line drawn?

Hello, uglygal. Your question puts me in mind of Jesus asking His followers, one day,
“Who do people say that I am?”
[Mark 8: 27]

The only line that I can think of - in terms of religious belief -
is St. Paul writing of “I have run the race.”
This evokes the image of a finish line.

And even when I consider Paul’s image,
I picture God picking me up and carrying me
across the finish line, if need be.

This athletic image, favored by Paul, may speak to others.
It surely does not speak to me. *
down a flight of stairs without my hip giving out.]

Praying to God, the Master of the Universe -
Creator of all that is - is understandable to me.
Faith is a gift of grace. A relationship with a Person -
or Persons, in terms of Christian belief.

The only line that I am standing in is in the pasture that God spoke of in the 23rd Psalm - waiting my turn to sit next to, and to lean on, the Good Shepherd.
There’s room for everybody there. And you don’t even have to
be able to run a race. Or keep several theological assertions
in mid-air all at once. :juggle: It’s peaceful and quiet there.

In terms of how much “has” to be held - as true of Jesus -
is up to Jesus. Since faith is a gift, it is Jesus Himself
Who endows each with His grace, gift of the Holy Spirit -
according to Christian theology. It’s way too confusing for me,
and way too complicated. I hope that someone will be able
to reply to your question to your satisfaction, uglygal.
I could only offer the thoughts that I had.

reen12*

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
For example; belief that he is the second god of the Trinity,**

**Christians do not speak of two “gods” in the Trinity.

The Trinity–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit–is ONE God.**

 

[Genesis315]

You need to believe what is in the Nicene Creed.

Likewise, you need to have faith in Him–trust that all He has taught us to do is for our good and that He will make due on all His promises

 

[uglygal]

thanks for your answers

I’m just asking because as some of you may know I am in a spiritual wilderness now, taking a break from religion and traditions etc … and just trusting and waiting for the Father to guide me. I feel he has enlightened me on many things … many things that are wonderful and I see through experience are the truth. Yet Jesus always comes up, even though I declared that I reject him (you may have seen that post floating around here somewhere), He is still around.

I feel ready to accept Jesus as a Teacher and Master of God’s wisdom and law - like a Great Spiritual Teacher, perfectly endowed with God’s wisdom and spirit … but as something more? at this stage - no.

I don’t pray to Jesus because my prayers to Him were never answered (because I think he’s not really God and therefore couldn’t answer prayers to begin with) but when I pray to my Heavenly Father he is always there

so I’m wondering, where is the line drawn?

 

[Tietjen]

so I’m wondering, where is the line drawn?

In love I say… behind you; for you have stepped over it. There are 3 persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Together they are God. Individually, they are God. Throughout, there is but one God. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father. How can one deny the Son and embrace the Father? Again, I am not trying to upset you gal. I am simply trying to tell you the truth. Jesus Christ is the Son of God; not merely a “spiritual teacher.” As always, you remain in my prayers. God bless.

 

[uglygal]

In love I say… behind you; for you have stepped over it.

so are you saying I am damned? that I have overstepped the line?

How can one deny the Son and embrace the Father? Again, I am not trying to upset you gal. I am simply trying to tell you the truth. Jesus Christ is the Son of God; not merely a “spiritual teacher.”

I have found God the Father so this doesn’t make sense to me? If what you say is true than I shouldn’t experience and find the Father … but I have? so either your wrong … or …

 

[InLight247]

It seems that you have no problem to accept the God in the Old Testament. The Old Testament was completed hundreds of years before Jesus was born. A large number of prophecies about Jesus were made in astonishing detail by many people throughout these books.

For example, in** Psalm 41:9**, the Old Testament indicated Jesus would be betrayed by someone he trusted. “Even my close friend whom I trusted, he who has shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me”. The New Testament records Jesus was betrayed by one of his disciples.

In** Isaiah 53:5,** He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. Jesus willingly died for a brutal death on the Cross, for the redemption of sins, yours and mine.

More than 300 Messianic prophecies like this were made in the Old Testament and then fulfilled through Jesus’ life, death and resurrection.

I know in your other thread, you said when you prayed to Jesus, you got all kind of negative results. That must be your misunderstanding and the deception from the evil one. Jesus is the most merciful God, he is love. If you were the only human being in the entire world, He would still die for you, for you only. Christianity is the only religion has redemption and a Savior, and this Savior is Jesus. We all need redemption but none cannot save himself. Jesus, the lamb of God saves us through his suffering, death and resurrection. He sacrificed his life so the gap between God and man were mended, so God’s justice can be fulfilled, and we, the sinners, may have eternal life.

I hope you keep an open mind and keep on seeking the truth.
**
www.whoisjesus-really.com**

 

[Tietjen]

so are you saying I am damned? that I have overstepped the line?

No gal. I do not judge the soul nor what the soul’s ultimate destination will be. God a lone does that. I can only judge actions and words. Your rejection of Jesus Christ is wrong.

You claim that Christ never answers you… perhaps he has been trying and you simply don’t or won’t recognize it. I’ve seen so many people in so many threads try to help you understand who Christ is and that He loves you. Perhaps, in some sense, that itself is Christ standing at the door knocking. You say that despite your rejection He seems to keep popping up. I think He’s trying to communicate with you gal. Open the door and let Him in.

I have found God the Father so this doesn’t make sense to me? If what you say is true than I shouldn’t experience and find the Father … but I have? so either your wrong … or …

… you have not found the Father. No one comes unto the Father but through Christ.

Please gal, if I might ask. What exactly is it that upsets you so concerning our Lord? He died for you. Why do you “reject” Him? You obviously yearn to draw near to the Father; why do you insist on trying to do so through a means other than Jesus Christ?

 

[uglygal]

No gal. I do not judge the soul nor what the soul’s ultimate destination will be. God a lone does that. I can only judge actions and words. Your rejection of Jesus Christ is wrong.

You claim that Christ never answers you… perhaps he has been trying and you simply don’t or won’t recognize it. I’ve seen so many people in so many threads try to help you understand who Christ is and that He loves you. Perhaps, in some sense, that itself is Christ standing at the door knocking. You say that despite your rejection He seems to keep popping up. I think He’s trying to communicate with you gal. Open the door and let Him in.

… you have not found the Father. No one comes unto the Father but through Christ.

Please gal, if I might ask. What exactly is it that upsets you so concerning our Lord? He died for you. Why do you “reject” Him? You obviously yearn to draw near to the Father; why do you insist on trying to do so through a means other than Jesus Christ?

I’ll try to answer your questions.

I rejected Jesus because He rejected me.

It says in the Bible that those who are neither hot nor cold are lukewarm and spat out. I simply threw that back at Jesus. He was neither hot nor cold but always far away busy with something or someone else. so i spat him out. As bad as that may sound to you and catholics/christians (and believe me I know how bad it sounds because when I was a catholic i too got obsessed with tradition and the traditional catholic circles and basically became a zealot) but i had no choice. It was heart wrenching to do but it had to be done. The faith was a threat to my very life as it was the source of much depression, despair, self mutilation and ultimate suicide attempts.

You say I haven’t found the Father because Jesus isthe way and I have to go through him, my question in response … then who have I found?
I anticipate the response will be that I have found Satan or some horde of demons

I have found God the Father because he found me

 

[Tietjen]

I’ll try to answer your questions.

I rejected Jesus because He rejected me.

It says in the Bible that those who are neither hot nor cold are lukewarm and spat out. I simply threw that back at Jesus. He was neither hot nor cold but always far away busy with something or someone else. so i spat him out. As bad as that may sound to you and catholics/christians (and believe me I know how bad it sounds because when I was a catholic i too got obsessed with tradition and the traditional catholic circles and basically became a zealot) but i had no choice. It was heart wrenching to do but it had to be done. The faith was a threat to my very life as it was the source of much depression, despair, self mutilation and ultimate suicide attempts.

Dear gal, the faith we as Catholics (and other Christians as well) have in Christ does not cause us despair. I am not attempting to tell you that what you experienced wasn’t real, I’m saying it didn’t come from Jesus Christ. I wish you could believe that. Many Christians throughout the ages have suffered depression and other illnesses. That does not equate to the Lord abandoning them or worse, causing their suffering.

You say I haven’t found the Father because Jesus isthe way and I have to go through him, my question in response … then who have I found?
I anticipate the response will be that I have found Satan or some horde of demons

That’s because you don’t know me very well. I would not presume to tell you that you are being harassed by demons or Satan. As to who/what you have you found… I have no idea. Perhaps you have found some kind of peace with the idea that you have gained a certain control. By rejecting Christ, perhaps you feel comfort by having the ability to push God out of your way. You then personify that feeling and apply it as having come from the Father of our Lord. But if you stop for a moment and think about it, why would the Father accept you without Christ’s sacrifice on the cross? If you reject Jesus Christ, you reject what He has done for you. Certainly you do not believe that you are solely worthy of being with the Father based on your own merits?! God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) does indeed love you. However, you need to embarrass that love, grow in that love, share that love with others, and return that love to God, not reject His Son.

I have found God the Father because he found me

He never lost you gal. Since your conception, you have never left His or His Son’s sight. I hope that you will not be offended by my suggesting that you speak with a Christian counselor about these feelings of abandonment and being forsaken by our Lord. I know from reading and participating in several of your previous threads that this has been suggested before. Those that have advised you of this (myself included) do so out of love and a desire to see you put these issues concerning Christ to rest. He does love you gal. He did die for you. Please reconsider and move closer to Him rather than further away. God bless.

 

[RubyWannabe]

Hi, Uglygal. That’s a really great question, and you’re not alone to have it. I think part of the answer is in what you said, below:

'Yet Jesus always comes up, even though I declared that I reject him (you may have seen that post floating around here somewhere), He is still around."

Yes, it was Jesus who said He would never leave you nor forsake you. He’s still around because he’s seeking you. The Father sent His son Jesus to die for our sins. It’s pretty clear in Romans 10:9 - “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” The Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is God’s son.

Reading your story, I think God (all three persons of Him) worked hard to get you off a path of extremism that was leading in a direction where you would not find him. Now, you are in a spiritual desert, looking everywhere but where the answer lies. The Holy Spirit is guiding you to God Himself. He is leading you to accept that Jesus is God’s son and the fulfillment of His promise, and the atonement for sin. I trust He will use the ways that He knows will speak to your heart.

I could say more, but I will pray that He will find you open-hearted and soon. He loves you SOOOO much.

RubyWannabe

 

[TOP]

thanks for your answers

I’m just asking because as some of you may know I am in a spiritual wilderness now, taking a break from religion and traditions etc … and just trusting and waiting for the Father to guide me. I feel he has enlightened me on many things … many things that are wonderful and I see through experience are the truth. Yet Jesus always comes up, even though I declared that I reject him (you may have seen that post floating around here somewhere), He is still around.

I feel ready to accept Jesus as a Teacher and Master of God’s wisdom and law - like a Great Spiritual Teacher, perfectly endowed with God’s wisdom and spirit … but as something more? at this stage - no.

I don’t pray to Jesus because my prayers to Him were never answered (because I think he’s not really God and therefore couldn’t answer prayers to begin with) but when I pray to my Heavenly Father he is always there

so I’m wondering, where is the line drawn?

Have you tried to pray through Him as if a gate, in His name? He is the narrow gate. Tim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

All you have to do is look at Scripture for your answer.

Luke 9:48 …and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me

Luke 10:16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”

John 5:22,23 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 15:23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also.

And;

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

No one goes to the Father, except through Jesus, who is in the Father and the Father is in Him.

Jim

 

[Maxply]

This is kind of an interesting thread. When I was 13, at camp, I went out canoeing at the end of the day, and I was out in the woods, etc., and I went out expecting to feel God’s presence. You read about such things.

Didn’t happen there. I really haven’t had any major knocks upside the head about God. What I see, really, are quicksilver flashes and glimpses of God’s presence, in things people do, in the way people are, in the general sensibilities and sense of morality we have. Not one big thing; many small things.

The thing I keep in mind is that God is all-powerful. Certainly bread can become His body. Certainly he can walk among mere men, as a man, in Jesus; certainly the Trinity exists.

The other thing I keep in mind is that even though we’re taught and raised to believe that human intellect can penetrate and understand all things, this is not the case. There are things beyond our comprehension, and I feel a bit humbled by this.

 

[reen12]

All reference to “No one comes to the Father except through Me” must be a comfort to Christians.

A difficulty seems to arise when another says
“No thank you. I have the Hebrew scriptures.”
“In the OT, God showed mercy, forgave sin,
and rescued each who called on Him.”

It’s kind of like a board game.

If I’m playing “Careers” - while another is playing
Monopoly = We have the sole access to God and salvation" -
it’s kind of hard to have a conversation.

To say that one needs Jesus to know God - is simple assertion.

There are billions who find their way to Him
without a Christian sherpa as their guide.

reen12

 

[MargaretCortona]

I feel ready to accept Jesus as a Teacher and Master of God’s wisdom and law - like a Great Spiritual Teacher, perfectly endowed with God’s wisdom and spirit … but as something more? at this stage - no.

Have you ever read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity? It was one of the main books that helped get me past that stage in my own thinking. Lewis for many years wasn’t Christian. After becoming Christian, he wrote the book to “explain and defend the belief that has been common to nearly all Christians at all times.” Here’s how he ended a chapter entitled “The Shocking Alternative”…“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

If you haven’t read the book, you might want to check it out. It has contributed to bringing many people to, or back to, a love of their faith. (And many people find it quite amusing that so many Catholic converts give Lewis, a non-Catholic, partial credit for bringing them into the Church!)

 

[uglygal]

I still don’t understand, where is the line drawn?

For instance you may have these scenarios;

1. Tom is a catholic, believes in Jesus, loves Jesus and goes to Church
2. Betty is a pentecostal, believes in Jesus, loves Jesus and goes to Church
3. Harry is a Christian deist, believes in Jesus and loves Jesus
4. Mary is a Muslim, believes in Jesus and loves Jesus and goes to the mosque
5. David is an agnostic, believes in Jesus and loves Jesus
6. Joe is a new-age gnostic, believes in Jesus and loves Jesus
7. Matt is an atheist, believes in Jesus and loves Jesus

• they all believe in Jesus and love Jesus, but of course they so in different ways … which ones are damned? where is the line drawn?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

uglyga

belief in Jesus and faith in Jesus, are two different things.
Satan believes in Jesus, he knows he exist.

Faith in Jesus, means accepting Jesus as God and Savior. It means, following His will.

From your list, an atheist who would believe in Jesus, the man, would not believe in Jesus God the Son, because atheist don’t believe in God.

A Muslim, believes in Jesus, as a man, a prophet, but not as God the Son. They find this blasphemous.

Christians, have faith in Jesus, because they have a personal relationship with Jesus. He is our God, our Savior. He always was, and always will be. God took on flesh and became man, in Jesus Christ. He suffered died and rose again, for our sins. Who ever comes to Him and follows Him, will have eternal life.

This is the difference between belief, and faith.

Jim