What beliefs are required to be Catholic

[ella03]

Hi. I’m new here and not sure this is in the right forum, but here goes.

I have been thinking lately about returning to the Church after leaving a number of years ago. My problem is that there are some teachings that that I really don’t believe. And I’m wondering if I could be Catholic if I don’t believe all of the Church’s teachings.

Many of what would be considered core Catholic beliefs I do believe (the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist for example)

But there are a few things that I don’t believe. For example, I have a problem with intercessory prayer. I do believe that the saints pray for the Church, but not that they can hear our individual petitions to them.

There are also some things that I struggle with, like the Immaculate Conception.

I guess I’m kind of confused about what beliefs are required for someone to be truly Catholic.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Do you happen to be Lutheran? From what you believe it sounds like you are.

 

[ella03]

Yes I am Lutheran (currently attending a LCMS parish).

Out of curiosity, how did you know? Is this a common problem with Lutherans?

 

[Trishie]

Welcome.
May God bless you in your search.

You may find it helpful to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

 

[ella03]

Actually I have read much of the Catechism, not all, but a lot.

The problem is that I know what the Catholic Church teaches, but some things I just don’t believe. And I’m not sure about how that non-belief affects my ability to rejoin the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not about “what can I believe” as if we were personally the arbiters of faith and doctrine. It’s about, what did Jesus teach to the Apostles, and what did they pass on to us? If Jesus got it wrong, and if the Apostles got it wrong, then we can’t believe in any of it.

But if they got it right, then who are we to disagree with them?

 

[Rejoice_Always]

Start with the Nicene Creed and go from there. It’ll give you a good solid base – from there you can branch out and see how things relate to it.

As you mentioned, the belief in the Real Presence is dogmatic.

I’ve heard a great quote and I can’t 100% recall it now. It goes something like a doubt isn’t disbelief – or something like that. I’ll need some hope from a Quotemeister.

 

[snarflemike]

Hi. I’m new here and not sure this is in the right forum, but here goes.

I have been thinking lately about returning to the Church after leaving a number of years ago. My problem is that there are some teachings that that I really don’t believe. And I’m wondering if I could be Catholic if I don’t believe all of the Church’s teachings.

Would you believe them if God told you they were true? IOW, what is the basis of your unbelief? Has God revealed to you that they are untrue?

To answer your question, you must assent to all that the Church teaches. And if the Church is what she claims, that is the only rational thing to do anyway.

 

[ella03]

It’s about, what did Jesus teach to the Apostles, and what did they pass on to us?

That’s actually the crux of the problem I have with intercessory prayer. There are NT Biblical passages that state quite clearly that there are no intermediaries between God and man except Christ. And the Bible passages that Catholics have offered me to prove that intercessory prayer is OK are rather nebulous. So I tend to interpret the not so clear in light of the clear. Since the Bible can not contradict itself, if the Apostles taught that Christ is the only intermediary between man and God, then all Biblical passages must teach the same thing - even if they appear to say something else.

My question actually wasn’t “what can I believe” - it is “what beliefs are needed to truly be Catholic”.

 

[sdegutis]

Hi. I’m new here and not sure this is in the right forum, but here goes.

I have been thinking lately about returning to the Church after leaving a number of years ago. My problem is that there are some teachings that that I really don’t believe. And I’m wondering if I could be Catholic if I don’t believe all of the Church’s teachings.

Many of what would be considered core Catholic beliefs I do believe (the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist for example)

But there are a few things that I don’t believe. For example, I have a problem with intercessory prayer. I do believe that the saints pray for the Church, but not that they can hear our individual petitions to them.

There are also some things that I struggle with, like the Immaculate Conception.

I guess I’m kind of confused about what beliefs are required for someone to be truly Catholic.

For what it’s worth, I used to go to a Lutheran church too, because I had read the Bible and came up with a very Catholic interpretation, but I didn’t become Catholic because I was afraid of how boring the Mass was, and was uncomfortable with intercessory prayers, and doctrines concerning Mary, such as the Immaculate Conception.

But just like Saint Augustine, when I began to realize that several of my objections to the Catholic Church actually did have very good answers, I began to have more and more faith that my other objections were probably superficial and had more than sufficient refutations. So I joined the Catholic Church with only a little bit of reservation on these doctrines instead of full-blown disbelief. And in my spare time I researched them to see whether there were any good defenses of them. So now I believe in all their doctrines and am very comfortable with the answers I’ve found. But having these doubts didn’t stop me from joining the Church.

And since I had one of the same objections as you, namely intercessory prayers, remember that in the Book of Hebrews it says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. This can only mean that the Saints who are in Heaven, who witnessed to the same Faith we hold, are surrounding us who are on earth, cheering us on, praying to God for us and our success in this race. There’s not really any other way to interpret this verse. Plus, if God watches us on earth, and it pleases him to do so, and his saints have pleased him, then it would just make logical sense he would grant them the very same privilege of being able to watch us and pray for us. Plus I’ve heard some good arguments to suggest that once outside of this life, they live in “eternity”, that is, outside of the chronological limits of time – remember, God created time in the beginning – and thus they probably can access any point in time, forward or backward, as easily as we can access any point in space. So the fact that people all over the world are praying the Hail Mary at the same time doesn’t imply that Mary can’t hear and grant them both what they ask. In fact, there are documented accounts of “bi-location”, that is, a saint being in two places simultaneously, which probably has similar mechanics to this supernatural gift. Anyway I don’t know if any of this helps but sorry for the wall of text

 

[mark_a]

But there are a few things that I don’t believe. For example, I have a problem with intercessory prayer. I do believe that the saints pray for the Church, but not that they can hear our individual petitions to them.

How about if God tells them?

I guess I’m kind of confused about what beliefs are required for someone to be truly Catholic.

Dogmas may not be denied, but you can ask all the questions you want

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Yes I am Lutheran (currently attending a LCMS parish).

Out of curiosity, how did you know? Is this a common problem with Lutherans?

You are a protestant and believe in the Real Presence. You believe in the intercession of the saints for the Church but don’t think they hear personal appeals and you have a devotion to Mary but not too much as to accept the IC. It was a pretty safe bet.

 

[sdegutis]

Simpler answers are:

I have a problem with intercessory prayer. I do believe that the saints pray for the Church, but not that they can hear our individual petitions to them.

God can just tell them. God hears you, they behold the face of God and so hear Him, God loves you and them, God will faithfully pass the message along.

IThere are also some things that I struggle with, like the Immaculate Conception.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say Mary sinned. Plus it just makes sense that Jesus should probably not have a sinful mother or live in a sinful woman’s womb for a time. Plus, it makes even more sense that while Jesus was in her womb, he was working “eucharistic” graces in her soul for the whole 10 months of gestation.

 

[ella03]

Would you believe them if God told you they were true? IOW, what is the basis of your unbelief? Has God revealed to you that they are untrue?

To answer your question, you must assent to all that the Church teaches. And if the Church is what she claims, that is the only rational thing to do anyway.

Actually God’ saying they are true should be the only criteria. Since the Bible is the Word of God it stands to reason that my unbelief or belief is based on the Bible.

If it is true that to be Catholic you must assent to ALL Catholic teachings, then the number of people who are truly Catholic is probably much smaller than the number the Church counts as being members. I’ve met very few who assent to all the teachings.

 

[mskejj]

That’s actually the crux of the problem I have with intercessory prayer. There are NT Biblical passages that state quite clearly that there are no intermediaries between God and man except Christ. And the Bible passages that Catholics have offered me to prove that intercessory prayer is OK are rather nebulous. So I tend to interpret the not so clear in light of the clear. Since the Bible can not contradict itself, if the Apostles taught that Christ is the only intermediary between man and God, then all Biblical passages must teach the same thing - even if they appear to say something else.

My question actually wasn’t “what can I believe” - it is “what beliefs are needed to truly be Catholic”.

Rev 5:6-8 “And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures, and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bows full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; …”

The Lamb is Jesus and the one on the throne is God…Jesus is our mediator. The 24 Elders which represents the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles present prayers to him from the saints. The rising smoke of the incense is a visible sign of prayers ascending to God (Ps 141:2). The saints in heaven mediate the praises and petitions of the saints on earth. (Rev 8:3)…“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne.”

 

[snarflemike]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say Mary sinned. Plus it just makes sense that Jesus should probably not have a sinful mother or live in a sinful woman’s womb for a time. Plus, it makes even more sense that while Jesus was in her womb, he was working “eucharistic” graces in her soul for the whole 10 months of gestation.

What makes the most sense to me (knowing that the Church teaching is true, and just meditating on it) is that if Jesus was to become the perfect union of God and Man, then just as he would have a perfect divine father, would it not make sense that he would have a perfect human mother?

 

[ella03]

How about if God tells them?

Dogmas may not be denied, but you can ask all the questions you want

Why would God tell them? Isn’t the whole point of intercession to speak to the Saint so that they can pass it on to God, so to speak. If God already knows your prayer why would he need anyone elses help?

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Why would God tell them? Isn’t the whole point of intercession to speak to the Saint so that they can pass it on to God, so to speak. If God already knows your prayer why would he need anyone elses help?

Because the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:16). And who are more righteous than the saints in heaven? Why introduce a wall of seperation between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant, who are always in full communion with eachother?

And listen to me, you’re in a Lutheran church, I’m (at least nominally) in a Calvinist one

 

[sdegutis]

Why would God tell them? Isn’t the whole point of intercession to speak to the Saint so that they can pass it on to God, so to speak. If God already knows your prayer why would he need anyone elses help?

Yeah honestly that was one of the weirder answers I was told in the beginning. St. Thomas Aquinas presents a much more theologically and rationally sound understanding of them being able to hear us: newadvent.org/summa/5072.htm

Specifically:

Article 1. Whether the saints have knowledge of our prayers?

Objection 1. It would seem that the saints have no knowledge of our prayers. For a gloss on Isaiah 62:16, “Thou art our father and Abraham hath not known us, and Israel hath been ignorant of us,” says that “the dead saints know not what the living, even their own children, are doing.” This is taken from Augustine (De Cura pro Mort. xiii), where he quotes the aforesaid authority, and the following are his words: “If such great men as the patriarchs knew not what was happening to the people begotten of them, how can the dead occupy themselves in watching and helping the affairs and actions of the living?” Therefore the saints cannot be cognizant of our prayers.

Objection 2. Further, the following words are addressed to King Joas (2 Kings 22:20): “Therefore” (i.e. because thou hast wept before Me), “I will gather thee to thy fathers . . . that thy eyes may not see all the evils which I will bring upon this place.” But Joas would have gained no such advantage from his death if he were to know after death what was happening to his people. Therefore the saints after death know not our actions, and thus they are not cognizant of our prayers.

Objection 3. Further, the more perfect a man is in charity, the more he succors his neighbor when the latter is in danger. Now the saints, in this life, watch over their neighbor, especially their kinsfolk, when these are in danger, and manifestly assist them. Since then, after death, their charity is much greater, if they were cognizant of our deeds, much more would they watch over their friends and kindred and assist them in their needs: and yet, seemingly, they do not. Therefore it would seem that our deeds and prayers are not known to them.

Objection 4. Further, even as the saints after death see the Word, so do the angels of whom it is stated (Matthew 18:10) that “their angels in heaven always see the face of My Father.” Yet the angels through seeing the Word do not therefore know all things, since the lower angels are cleansed from their lack of knowledge by the higher angels [Cf. I, 106, 1], as Dionysius declares (Coel. Hier. vii). Therefore although the saints see the Word, they do not see therein our prayers and other things that happen in our regard.

Objection 5. Further, God alone is the searcher of hearts. Now prayer is seated chiefly in the heart. Therefore it belongs to God alone to know our prayers. Therefore our prayers are unknown to the saints.

On the contrary, Gregory, commenting on Job 14:21, “Whether his children come to honor or dishonor, he shall not understand,” says (Moral. xii): “This does not apply to the souls of the saints, for since they have an insight of Almighty God’s glory we must nowise believe that anything outside that glory is unknown to them.” Therefore they are cognizant of our prayers. Further, Gregory says (Dial. ii): “All creatures are little to the soul that sees God: because however little it sees of the Creator’s light, every created thing appears foreshortened to it.” Now apparently the chief obstacle to the souls of the saints being cognizant of our prayers and other happenings in our regard is that they are far removed from us. Since then distance does not prevent these things, as appears from the authority quoted, it would seem that the souls of the saints are cognizant of our prayers and of what happens here below.

Further, unless they were aware of what happens in our regard they would not pray for us, since they would be ignorant of our needs. But this is the error of Vigilantius, as Jerome asserts in his letter against him. Therefore the saints are cognizant of what happens in our regard.

I answer that, The Divine essence is a sufficient medium for knowing all things, and this is evident from the fact that God, by seeing His essence, sees all things. But it does not follow that whoever sees God’s essence knows all things, but only those who comprehend the essence of God [Cf. I, 12, 7,8]: even as the knowledge of a principle does not involve the knowledge of all that follows from that principle unless the whole virtue of the principle be comprehended. Wherefore, since the souls of the saints do not comprehend the Divine essence, it does not follow that they know all that can be known by the Divine essence–for which reason the lower angels are taught concerning certain matters by the higher angels, though they all see the essence of God; but each of the blessed must needs see in the Divine essence as many other things as the perfection of his happiness requires. For the perfection of a man’s happiness requires him to have whatever he will, and to will nothing amiss: and each one wills with a right will, to know what concerns himself. Hence since no rectitude is lacking to the saints, they wish to know what concerns themselves, and consequently it follows that they know it in the Word. Now it pertains to their glory that they assist the needy for their salvation: for thus they become God’s co-operators, “than which nothing is more Godlike,” as Dionysius declares (Coel. Hier. iii). Wherefore it is evident that the saints are cognizant of such things as are required for this purpose; and so it is manifest that they know in the Word the vows, devotions, and prayers of those who have recourse to their assistance.

Reply to Objection 1. The saying of Augustine is to be understood as referring to the natural knowledge of separated souls, which knowledge is devoid of obscurity in holy men. But he is not speaking of their knowledge in the Word, for it is clear that when Isaias said this, Abraham had no such knowledge, since no one had come to the vision of God before Christ’s passion.

Reply to Objection 2. Although the saints, after this life, know what happens here below, we must not believe that they grieve through knowing the woes of those whom they loved in this world: for they are so filled with heavenly joy, that sorrow finds no place in them. Wherefore if after death they know the woes of their friends, their grief is forestalled by their removal from this world before their woes occur. Perhaps, however, the non-glorified souls would grieve somewhat, if they were aware of the distress of their dear ones: and since the soul of Josias was not glorified as soon as it went out from his body, it is in this respect that Augustine uses this argument to show that the souls of the dead have no knowledge of the deeds of the living.

Reply to Objection 3. The souls of the saints have their will fully conformed to the Divine will even as regards the things willed. and consequently, although they retain the love of charity towards their neighbor, they do not succor him otherwise than they see to be in conformity with the disposition of Divine justice. Nevertheless, it is to be believed that they help their neighbor very much by interceding for him to God.

Reply to Objection 4. Although it does not follow that those who see the Word see all things in the Word, they see those things that pertain to the perfection of their happiness, as stated above.

Reply to Objection 5. God alone of Himself knows the thoughts of the heart: yet others know them, in so far as these are revealed to them, either by their vision of the Word or by any other means.

 

[ella03]

What makes the most sense to me (knowing that the Church teaching is true, and just meditating on it) is that if Jesus was to become the perfect union of God and Man, then just as he would have a perfect divine father, would it not make sense that he would have a perfect human mother?

I can believe that Mary would have to be cleansed of sin in order for Jesus to live in her womb until birth, but there is no reason that she would have to be born sinless.

Romans is clear that all men sin. For Mary to be sinless from birth than Mary is in essence a different type of human being then the rest of us. Something that just has no Biblical basis at all.

If Mary had to be born sinless to carry a sinless child, then it stands to reason that Mary’s mother would also have to be sinless, as would her mother before her…etc.

Plus it seems to me that Jesus having a flawed, truly human (just like the rest of us) mother is a necessary part of his mission for our salvation. If both his mother and his father are both truly perfect , then he could not be what the Church teaches he is (truly human & truly divine) You can’t inherit from your parents what they don’t possess. If Mary didn’t posses true humanity then Jesus could not be “truly human” - he could only be “truly divine”