What brings non-Catholics to CAF?

[Kaninchen]

The menace of the ‘House of the Catechumen’ cast a long shadow on Italian Jewish life, particularly (but not exclusively), of course, in the Papal States.

 

[chosen_people]

Here’s just a few:

1. Lazzaro Anticolli
2. The Rosa baby “baptized” by Maddalena Pacifici
3. The baby daughter of Salvatore and Rebbeca Tivoli (Labani) given the name of Fortuna

This is of course something that went on for centuries and it is worthwhile to learn of the various Papal Bulls and Edicts concerning Jews, the house of Catechumens, Jews being forced on the Sabbath to hear Christian sermons, and the ability to disregard the wishes of Jewish parents concerning the religion of their Jewish children.

zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Papal_Bulls_Jews.htm

Of course, these are official Church cases (where the child could be simply forcibly removed from their loving Jewish family) as opposed to Jews forced into baptism in response to the cry during pogroms of "convert or die"or being brought to this state by the desperation of poverty and hunger.

The last massive conversion of Jewish children against the will of their parents and family, was a result of the conversion of Jewish children rescued by brave Catholics during the Shoah, who were converted by their rescuers. Unfortunately, the Church often did not cooperate in returning these children to their families, to their religion and to their people.

The final well known case is that of the Finaly brothers affair, which fortunately had a happy ending after a prolonged legal battle and numerous attempts to undermine the legal process.

isurvived.org/2Postings/Finaly-affair.html

 

[Kouyate42]

Thank you chosen people!

 

[Petergee]

Problem is that too many Catholics are unwilling to discuss or debate with other groups, or if they do, it’s a one-way process where they cry out ‘my opinion is right, LALALALALALALALALALALA’ until the other side stops talking. No need to justify that position or explain it.

Now I come from an Islamic background, and yes, Islam teaches something similar to the ‘truth is what it is, no changing it’ but for me the critical difference is that Muslims are fully prepared to engage with and discuss their side, whilst still holding to it. When I was still attending church, questions were disliked. Now I attend mosque, I can ask a question and it is answered.

Come on, you are seriously making this claim on CAF of all places?

I grant you that poorly catechised, apathetic and non-practising Catholics (who unfortunately form the majority of Catholics in most Western countries) typically don’t want to talk about the tenets of their or anyone else’s religion in any serious way and are dismissive of qwuestions.

But every serious practising Catholic loves nothing more than fielding questions about religion. Sheesh, this is the main reason I come to CAF! Because I can’t get people to ask me questions in real life. Even in RCIA class, getting people to ask questions is like pulling teeth most of the time.

Now obviously if you stood up in a church in the middle of Mass and demanded teh answewr to some theological query, the priest and people would shush you and say “ask me later, this is not the time and place”. I imaginine the same would happen in a mosque during formal prayers. But come on get real. It’s simply incredible that anyone in any leadership position in teh Catholic Church r5efused to answer people’s questions or discouraged people from asking them.

the average Moslem it’s true is practising, and so likes discussing religion. But virtually never would a Moslem admit in public that a non-Moslem religion might be right and Islam might be wrong on any particluar point of doctrine.

So please explain to me the massive propoganda war in the pre-medieval and medieval periods which saw all sorts of accusations flung at Muslims for no other reason than guilt at what the supposedly Christian West was doing, including accusations of pedophilia by the Prophet (saw), rape, murder of civilians and widespread pillaging?

To answer your question you ask in the first sentence, I've studied many sources, including those written by Muslims and Christians, as well as more secular/atheist sources, and it keeps coming back to the same conclusion I have already made. The Catholic and Christian churches dirtied the name of Islam, resulting in the hatred Muslims have to put up with even today.

What you seriously expect us to believe that it was merely because of friendly persuasion that the entire Middle East, Asia Minor, all of North Africa, Central Asia etc which had been overwhelmingly Christian for centuries, are today overwhelmingly Moslem? And if it’s all Christian propoaganda, why do all the non-Christian, non-Moslem societies of Asia record the same “propaganda”? Why do Moslems themselves boast openly about it?

As for the paedophilia, the Moslem holy books state (with approval) that it was an histiorical fact. The non-Moslem “ptropaganda” is merely repeatuing what Moslems themselves record and re-tell to this day.

You mean the same Church which actively called Jews ‘Christ-killers’ until recently?

The Catholic Church has awlays, still today, and will always teach that Jews and Gentiles** alike** are Christ-killers. That** all **Gentiles, but not all Jews are Christ-killers.

Try reading this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism

Very familiar with it thanks. As I said, many Christians have been and are anti-semitic. The Church has never been anti-semitic. And It’s probably not a good idea for a Moslem to even mention anti-semitism when talking tro a Christian. People who live in glass houses…
And of course the Moslem antiosemitism was and is officially endorsed by the leaders of Islam and their holy books. whereas the leaders of the Catholic Chruch were always trying to stop Christians from being anti-semitic.

Also, this same church in Italy often robbed Jewish parents of their children based on the often covert baptisms of Jewish children by servants and housemaids, with the flimsy pretext of Papal law making it legal for the state to do so.

A distortion of history so nonsensical as to be completely fallacious.

Ever considered the widely-known theory that Catholicism helped create the beast of Islamic fundamentalism by upsetting tribal and group alliances many Muslim groups had at the time, which ensured peace?

As to this other stuff, I’ll have to take your word for it for now and read up, as my history beyond about 800AD isn’t great.

Really? Do tell us how Catholicism did that. Given that Mahomet and his followers up until 800 AD were far more fundamentalist than Al Quaeda are today.

 

[JillianRose]

How do I know if I am cataloged as an apostate? Is there an apostate list?

An apostate is someone who denies their religion. Apostate is kind of a cool word. If you are Catholic or Christian, an apostate is someone who denies the Trinity. It can be also used as someone who reject their religion.

 

[JillianRose]

Problem for me is that for much of history, these teachingd and actions weren’t just limited to a priestly or noble elite, it was often done by ‘ordinary’ Catholics also, who believed in every single word of what they said/did.

And often these actions were backed up with Biblical or Church teachings. What the Church did or taught in history has often been radically different to what is actually contained in the Gospels.

It seems historically and even now, Catholicism is so inward-looking, that anything which does not fit the Church mould is rejected. You see it here on CAF to an extent, where people seem so insistent on proving the various Protestant churches/Islam/Judaism/JWs/Mormonism wrong.

I’ll make a thread…k

This reminds me of a saying “The Bible is the most popular book in the world, yet Christian are the most read”

 

[Zooey]

I wanted some information on a topic that required a Catholic answer, & someone directed me here…
And then I discovered that CAF is awash with faith, hope, & love, & that the people here, when you ask for prayer, actually PRAY. I mean, they you all] actually take the time to post prayers–sometimes whole threads of prayer.
There just isn’t anyplace else like it on the 'net, where I can gather with others who love & serve the Lord.
This is my :thumbsup:home on the web.

 

[Tiziana]

Curiosity.

In my case, curiosity about US Catholicism (not-European).

That’s all I think

 

[Gaber]

Curiosity.

In my case, curiosity about US Catholicism (not-European).

That’s all I think

Wow. Now Catholicism has its Eastern factions, European and American by implication, and then the Spanish/Central-South American flavor of it as well? Where will it end?

 

[Petergee]

Wow. Now Catholicism has its Eastern factions, European and American by implication, and then the Spanish/Central-South American flavor of it as well? Where will it end?

I think Tiziana was referring to the cultural practices associated with Catholicism in the USA, which also fascinate me the more I see of them here.

On the one hand it is inspiring to see that so many Catholics in the US are so zealous for the faith as so few are in most other western countries. On the other hand some of them have some rather strange ideas and insist that one has to subscribe to these ideas to be a real Catholic.

 

[CleverUserName]

I came to this forum a while ago to learn more about Catholicism. I am currently contemplating about starting RCIA.

Excellent! Welcome

 

[Kouyate42]

Come on, you are seriously making this claim on CAF of all places?

You don’t have to accept what is really only my opinion.

I grant you that poorly catechized, apathetic and non-practising Catholics (who unfortunately form the majority of Catholics in most Western countries) typically don’t want to talk about the tenets of their or anyone else’s religion in any serious way and are dismissive of questions.

And therein is the problem. But even among good strong Catholics, I’ve often personally found a strong ‘don’t ask’ strand.

But every serious practising Catholic loves nothing more than fielding questions about religion. Sheesh, this is the main reason I come to CAF! Because I can’t get people to ask me questions in real life. Even in RCIA class, getting people to ask questions is like pulling teeth most of the time.

Problem for me is that too many questions seem to go that people merely parrot Bible verses or Catechism passages without even bothering to make a coherent argument or discussion. This is particularly noticable for me as I reject many beliefs that a Catholic has, but there is no attempt to try and justify or prove them against my own beliefs.

Example: I’m still waiting for a logical response to the Muslim claim that Jesus was never crucified that doesn’t just boil down to ‘the Bible says it happened, ergo it did’.

If that doesn’t work, then you usually get the response ‘you need to have faith’ which to my mind is a cop-out.

Now obviously if you stood up in a church in the middle of Mass and demanded teh answewr to some theological query, the priest and people would shush you and say “ask me later, this is not the time and place”. I imaginine the same would happen in a mosque during formal prayers. But come on get real. It’s simply incredible that anyone in any leadership position in teh Catholic Church r5efused to answer people’s questions or discouraged people from asking them.

So why is it that when I’ve posed many often quite important questions (such as my one above about Jesus being crucified, which among other questions is a major roadblock to my believing Christianity), I’ve been met with silence or hostility, or at best, a mumbled argument based on the Bible (i.e. the very book I don’t even believe in).

the average Moslem it’s true is practising, and so likes discussing religion. But virtually never would a Moslem admit in public that a non-Moslem religion might be right and Islam might be wrong on any particluar point of doctrine.

If there was some logical case made where both sides listened and were willing to concede any arguments won by the other side,

What you seriously expect us to believe that it was merely because of friendly persuasion that the entire Middle East, Asia Minor, all of North Africa, Central Asia etc which had been overwhelmingly Christian for centuries, are today overwhelmingly Moslem? And if it’s all Christian propoaganda, why do all the non-Christian, non-Moslem societies of Asia record the same “propaganda”? Why do Moslems themselves boast openly about it?

Malaysia, Pakistan, Indonesia, India and many of the African states and even the Western Chinese Muslim areas are all there because of peaceful means (mostly trade). You have to remember that many of the earliest battles were fought among tribal and not religious lines, including the battle of Badr which was being fought between the Qurayshi tribe on one side (from Makkah) and the Medinan tribes, including Bedouin, Jewish and refugee tribes including SOME Makkans…

You’re being overly dramatic in your assertions and you are wrong.

As for the paedophilia, the Moslem holy books state (with approval) that it was an histiorical fact. The non-Moslem “ptropaganda” is merely repeatuing what Moslems themselves record and re-tell to this day.

Problem is that you need to read things in context and with some view to the historical

The Catholic Church has awlays, still today, and will always teach that Jews and Gentiles** alike** are Christ-killers. That** all **Gentiles, but not all Jews are Christ-killers.
Very familiar with it thanks. As I said, many Christians have been and are anti-semitic. The Church has never been anti-semitic. And It’s probably not a good idea for a Moslem to even mention anti-semitism when talking tro a Christian. People who live in glass houses…

At a time when Jews were actively being hated in medieval Western countries, those same Jews often found a refuge in the Muslim Spanish states and in other Muslim countries.

And of course the Moslem antiosemitism was and is officially endorsed by the leaders of Islam and their holy books. whereas the leaders of the Catholic Chruch were always trying to stop Christians from being anti-semitic.
A distortion of history so nonsensical as to be completely fallacious.

Cite your sources or recind your claims.