What Can We Expect From the Vatican Summit?

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If by zero-tolerance, you mean that your spouse refuses conjugal relations permanently, she has that right. But the Church “earnestly recommends” she should forgive you and resume conjugal relations (per canon 1152).
Should you be held to a higher standard than a priest? no. I hope that is a straight enough answer for you.
 
Wow, thanks for posting. The Holy Father’s opening remarks and the list of points he released are very promising. I am more optimistic at this point. Almost deserves its own thread.
 
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At the heights of medeival Christendom wasnt it much more common that a priest may have slipped up; had a child out of wedlock, confessed and everyone moves on with him continuing to be a priest? Has Kristin Lavransdater somehow led me astray? I think a lapse in vows with a consensual adult partner is absolutley completely different from abuse, and does not need to be grounds for defrocking.
 
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RobertAdams said:
I think a lapse in vows with a consensual adult partner is absolutley completely different from abuse, and does not need to be grounds for defrocking.
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That is what I think, assuming it is truly consensual.
 
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tafan2 said:
Almost deserves its own thread.
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I think you’re right. I created one:
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Vatican Summit begins Catholic News
Now that the summit is underway, perhaps it is a good idea to have a separate thread with news about what is going on at the summit and what the end results are. Here is a link with the full text of Pope Francis’ opening address, as well as the 21 points of reflection he distributed to all the attendees: http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2019/02/calling-church-to-hear-cry-for-justice.html The pope’s comments are brief, but to the point: Dear Brothers, good morning! In light of the sc…
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Maybe something like this
Seminary and continuing clergy formation has to deal with its hetero, homo, and “ambigusexual” issues rather than teach that sexuality can be prayed away. Future priests should be taught how to make healthy boundaries, protect themselves from predators, report wrongdoings, and defend themselves against false accusations. And, to deal with the homosexual community that says there is no link between homosexuality and male oriented pedophilia. The local parishes and their priests cannot be punching bags for the laity; it should be made known to them that the “some” is not “the all”. Vigano’s letter notwithstanding, the Church needs to continue “ecclesia reformans semper reformandum est” (the reforming church s always in need of reform).
 
What can we expect?
-Continued denial of the root causes.
-Silence on abuse of seminarians and the culture which pepetuates such abuse.
-No investigation of Vigano’s accusations.
-No accountability for Bishops for past and continued cover-ups.
-No acknowledgement of the homosexual subculture, of covering up for, protecting and promoting their own.
In short alot of talk about transparency, honesty and accountability whithout actually confronting the elephant in the corner.
 
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ChemicalBean said:
It cannot be a woman-man relationship since there are no women who are priests and therefore equal in power dynamics.
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Not true at all. “Simple” priests serve as chaplains in monasteries of nuns. They are somewhat independent, but are there to serve the monastery, and are clearly lower on the totem pole than Mother Abbess, who can, if she wants, make life miserable for the chaplain.

Personally I expect very little from the summit.

Has anyone read this?

www.theguardian.com

In the Closet of the Vatican by Frédéric Martel review – power, homosexuality and hypocrisy

An in-depth investigation of gay life in the Vatican takes in guilt, secrets, deception and fear
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

If even only 1/10 is true we have a problem. I do, however, very much believe that the author’s premise that most homophobic of prelates likely hiding a very embarrassing secret himself. I’ve seen it too often including in my own circles, outside clerical circles.

Personally I don’t think that the conference will address the root cause of the problem: the whole Catholic sexual ethic that demands that the laity swim against nature, while too many of the clergy clearly thinks that this doesn’t apply to them. “Pharisees” comes to mind:
4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men. (Matthew 23, 4-7)
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I still think that married priests need to figure in a solution. Not because married men are immune from abusing minors. They are not. But because heterosexual marriage is a naturally ordered institution. Celibacy is not. We need to stop exalting celibacy and virginity as somehow “better” than the married state. It simply is against nature and the Natural Law. If we believe in Natural Law and a sexuality based on it, then we must believe that we’re ordered towards procreation, and the celibate state goes against that order. Therefore choosing a celibate life must be a clear choice for the love of God, not taken lightly, and should only be required of those who have the support of an entire community: a religious community, such as monks, friars or nuns or sisters. Expecting diocesan priests to live in the world with all its temptations, while remaining celibate, simply rows against nature and is doomed to create situations like the one we are experiencing in the Church now.

If we want to attract men to the priesthood who have a naturally ordered sexuality, we must allow them a licit outlet for that sexuality, marriage. Repressing it clearly has proven wanting. It has driven away good men, and allowed men with disordered sexualities to wreak havoc on the Church.
Hoosier-Daddy said:
I know a priest who was arrested for the rape of a government employee…What parish would you put him at?
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Prison ministry.
 
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"the Church, throughout her history, has always defended the superiority of this charism [celibacy] to that of marriage” ( Familiaris Consortio
OraLabora said:
But because heterosexual marriage is a naturally ordered institution. Celibacy is not. We need to stop exalting celibacy and virginity as somehow “better” than the married state. It simply is against nature and the Natural Law.
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Celibacy and virginity are not disordered and not contrary to natural law. This contradicts Catholic teaching and countless saints. Celibacy is not the antithesis of the fruifullness of marriage. It is a fuller expression of the gift of chastity, in order to bear fruit for the entire Church.

Is the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary contrary to natural law?
 
OraLabora said:
But because heterosexual marriage is a naturally ordered institution. Celibacy is not. We need to stop exalting celibacy and virginity as somehow “better” than the married state. It simply is against nature and the Natural Law.
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I don’t disagree with most of what you’ve written, and I have no issue with exploring the possibility of ordaining more married men to the priesthood…but the above is simply not in line with Catholic teaching. Trent definitively taught that virginity / celibacy is indeed objectively superior to marriage. It may not be naturally better, but when a vocation and consecrated by the Church, it is supernaturally better…
 
I am crying out to Pope Francis to have mercy on the faithful and mercy on our people.
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Guam Archbishop appeals verdict Catholic News
‘What have I failed to do?’ - Pope leads bishops in abuse crisis examination of conscience https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...-abuse-crisis-examination-of-conscience-72259 “In the Church of my country, how have we dealt with bishops, priests, deacons and religious accused of sexual assault? How did we deal with those whose crimes were established? What have I personally done to prevent injustice and establish justice? What have I failed to d…
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twf said:
Trent definitively taught that virginity / celibacy is indeed objectively superior to marriage. It may not be naturally better, but when a vocation and consecrated by the Church, it is supernaturally better…
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Yes I am well aware of the teaching, However, it is one area where in good conscience, I must dissent from the Church. There aren’t many areas where I dissent, but this is one of them.

The notion that someone is somehow exalted by a vow or promise of celibacy has lead, IMHO to the very type of clericalism and subsequent abuse that has sunk the Church’s credibility on sexual matters.

I have seen the havoc that this kind of clericalism wreaked on Quebec, especially Quebec married women who were literally denied absolution if they didn’t constantly procreate; I couldn’t blame a woman for choosing the religious life instead of raising 10-15 children, and there is no way you can convince me that somehow living in relative comfort in a convent is superior to raising more than 10 children in poverty.

Just this Friday, I was having dinner with a good friend and his wife, both in their early 70s. She mentioned waiting outside the confessional as a child while her father confessed. The couple had had 4 children in rapid succession and were dirt poor and he confessed wanting to use natural spacing of his family. She said he then led out a loud roar and told the priest where he could stuff his denied absolution. That is simply sick, sick, sick. And these are not isolated anecdotes. The backlash against the Church during the Quiet Revolution which also closely coincided with Vatican II, is something that the Church in Quebec still hasn’t, and probably never will, recover from (Ireland, as I understand it, experienced something similar).

This kind of clericalism also flies in the face of Benedictine spirituality where the Rule says of the priest:
Let him always keep the place which he received
on entering the monastery,
except in his duties at the altar (RB 62)
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Clericalism did creep into the Benedictine order too, probably mostly at the time of Cluny, where the priestly caste began to be set aside from the other monks. The Council has tried to reverse this, but one still has to be a priest to be an abbot, even though St. Benedict was an abbot and not a priest. Yet a woman can be an abbess, and obviously an abbess cannot be a priest!

I have the utmost respect for men and women who are called to celibacy and successfully live out their vows or promises. It is a tough row to hoe, but as my sister-in-law’s son is learning, so too is parenthood, while his 3-month old child rests in the ICU with meningitis (please pray!). Parenthood and celibacy are both tough callings in their own way. Neither, IMHO should be exalted. They are just different, and the vocations to parenthood or celibacy are simply different and appropriate for people of different calling.
 
Respectfully, I think you are conflating issues. The Jansenist / clerical abuses of Quebec were terrible things, but that in itself doesn’t discount the inherent value of celibacy for those who are called to it. Presumably many of these priests of old should not have been celibate or even priests to begin with. Likewise, an abusive or unfaithful husband doesn’t discount the sanctity of marriage - even if perhaps that particular man should not have married to begin with. Celibacy is also a great gift for those consecrated women who are called to it- and in that case we clearly don’t have an issue of clericalism.

Trent’s ruling is, as far as I recall, a dogma, and thus infallible. Of course the discipline of the Church, how this dogma is lived, is a point of discussion.

And of course “superior” doesn’t necessarily mean that the individuals are holier or have a more difficult life. Individual holiness is found in all vocations and mileage will vary. Celibacy still objectively conforms more perfectly to Christ’s own celibate state.

I would have no issue with the Latin Church adopting the Eastern model. Monastic life remains the highest vocation, but few are called to it. Secular priests are largely drawn from the ranks of married men. In a sense this rings closer to the ideal definitively taught by Trent - if it is such a high vocation, and since ancient times associated with monasticism (male and female) rather than the secular priesthood, surely only a few are called to it? Either way, the teaching itself goes right back to St Paul.

(For the record I am married and have a very hyperactive 3 year old - I know that parenting can be very hard work).
 
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twf said:
The Jansenist / clerical abuses of Quebec were terrible things, but that in itself doesn’t discount the inherent value of celibacy for those who are called to it.
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Actually I do value it, as I said in my post. After all I’m an oblate and hang around a monastery a good part of my week!

I just don’t value it more than the married state. It might be dogma, but I just cannot assent to that teaching at this time. Well-formed conscience and all that I guess.
 
I don’t know if valuing it “more” is even necessarily the right way to look at it. As I said in my post, celibacy objectively conforms more perfectly to Christ’s celibate state, but I’m not sure that means that we as laity must “value” it more. A bishop is objectively of superior rank to the parish secretary, but I’m not sure I value him more than I do her.
 
Perhaps we can agree that there has (and sometimes is) been an issue of clericalism and it hasn’t always been wise to place secular clergy on the same celibate pedestal that the ancient Church associated only with monastic life and leave it at that?
Regarding St Benedict and the clerical status of abbots, perhaps it’s some small consolation that the highest ranking religious superior in the Church is a lay brother - that is, the Prince and Grand Master of the Knights of Malta - as His Eminent Highness ranks immediately after cardinals in precedence yet is never ordained ;). Very small consolation…
 
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