What Can We Say About The Virgin?

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you’re right about having to interpret scripture as a whole and ive taken consideration and those passages don’t contradict with one another they just dont agree with your preconceived idea of the perpetual viriginity thats been fed to you by your RELIGION. You know the Bible doesnt contradict itself …
This is funny. You accuse us of using preconceived notions to support straw man arguments. And then you use this statement to knock down our argument.
The New Testament seems to indicate that Mary and Joseph bore children after Jesus (Matt.:1:25; 12:47; Luke 2:7; John 2:12; Acts 1:14), and that the second oldest was James (Matt.:13:55;Mark:6:3).
Seems to indicate? This is your proof? Seems to indicate?

BTW, why does the NT never say, Mary, the mother of Jesus, James, Joseph, etc., etc.? Also, the NT speaks of the conversion of other famous people, especially those that are instrumental in Salvation History. And of this James, who is such an important link between the Jewish Covenant and the New Covenant Jewish Christians, it is silent. James doesn’t speak of it, neither does Luke in Acts.
 
Now lets see there are actually 5 men in the NT named James
  1. James, the son of Zebedee and brother of John.
  2. James, the son of Alphaeus. This James was also one of the twelve apostles. In each list of the apostles he is mentioned in ninth position (Matt.:10:3;Mark:3:18;Luke:6:15;Acts:1:13).
  3. James the Less. This James is called the son of Mary (not the mother of Jesus), and the brother of Joses (Matt. 27:56; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10). Mark 15:40 refers to him as James the Less. The Greek word mikros can mean either small or less. It could, therefore, mean James the smaller (in size), or younger (NIV), or James the less (well-known).
  4. James, the father of Judas. Two passages in the New Testament refer to a James, the father of Judas (Luke:6:16;Acts:1:13). Judas was one of the twelve apostles; he was the last to be listed before his more infamous namesake, Judas Iscariot.
  5. James, the brother of Jesus. James is first mentioned as the oldest of Jesus four younger brothers (Matt.:13:55;Mark:6:3).
James the son of Alphaeus (Cleopas) is the one who is also described as James the less, the son of the other Mary. According to some scholars, as Alphaeus and Cleopas (Clopas) are probably not two transcriptions of the same Aramaic name ‘halpai’, it must be admitted that two different names have been borne by the same man. (See www.newadvent.org on the subject of Clopas.)

As for James, the father of Jude, it is more likely that Jude is the brother of James the less, also described as James the son of Alphaeus. (See www.newadvent.org on the subject of James.) So these three Jameses are one and the same person. Jude (“Judas”) is listed among the apostles in Luke 6, 13-16 (cf. Acts 1,13). In both Matthew 10, 2-4 and Mark 3, 16-19 the name “Judas” (Jude) does not appear in the list of the apostles, but rather the name “Thaddeus”. In these two Gospels, the name Thaddeus follows after that of James, son of Alphaeus; so, the traditional conclusion among Catholics is that Thaddeus (Jude) and James are related. (The Latin text of Eucharistic Prayer 1 uses the name Thaddeus instead of Jude.) This Jude is also traditionally considered to be the author of the epistle which goes by his name, in which he identifies himself as a “brother” of James the less. Now in the listing of the Apostles cited above, Jude is identified as the “son” of James, and James is identified as the son of Alphaeus. There seems to be a problem. But it lies in the translation from the Greek text of the Gospel into English. Returning to the original Greek text of the Gospel of Luke, one does not find the word “son” either in reference to “James son of Alphaeus” or “Judas son of James”: the literal translation would be “James of Alphaeus” and “Judas (Jude) of James” denoting kinship. And Jude makes it clear in his epistle how he and James are related as kin. They are brothers.

In Catholic tradition Jude is regarded as the author of ‘The Epistle of St. Jude’, although some modern scholars have disputed the claim that the apostle Jude is the actual author. Yet there is traditional evidence in the liturgy of the Church supporting St. Jude as the author of the epistle. The Muratorian fragment ( circa A.D. 155) provides one of the earliest lists of texts that could be read at Mass because they were of “apostolic” authorship and free of heresy and error. These texts would be later included in the canon of the New Testament. The Muratorian fragment lists the Epistle of St. Jude as one of those accepted texts, thereby attesting to the “apostleship” of Jude (Thaddeus), brother of James the less, son of Alphaeus (Clepoas). :yup: At any rate, the Douay Rheims (Catholic) Bible correctly translates the listing in Luke 6, 13-16 as follows: “James the son of Alphaeus (Cleopas), and Simon who is called Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.” Jude may have identified himself as the brother of James the less because the latter was the well-known Bishop of Jerusalem.

Jesus had no biological brother by the name of James or any other name. You misinterpret Matthew 13 and Mark 6. The writers of the New Testament and the early Church Fathers counsel us that Scripture must be interpreted in light of Tradition. And Scripture is not meant for the formulation or refutation of Christian doctrines through private individual interpretation. The apostolic authority to interpret Scripture in light of Church teachings lies with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Not according to the Word of God…

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and petition; and they shall look on him whom they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and they shall grieve over him as one grieves over a firstborn.
{Zechariah 12, 10}

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:

I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother’s sons; for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me (Psa. 69:8,9)
That is a Messianic Psalm, that is, it has application to Messiah Jesus. This is clear since this Psalm is quoted in the New Testament (Jn. 2:17) and shown there to apply to the Lord. **The point is: Jesus became “an alien to MY OWN MOTHER’S SONS.” **This alienation is clearly evident at John 7:3-5. Before we look at that passage, please note that **Scripture explicitly declares that Jesus’ mother (Mary) had other “sons” (Psalm 69:8)! **This verse alone is an irrefutable and devastating blow to the idea that the blessed Mary remained a virgin throughout her lifetime. Remember, Joseph had no sexual union with Mary “till” Jesus, Mary’s “firstborn,” came into this world.
In Jn. 7:3-5, we read:

Jesus’ brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world."**👍 **This passage clearly shows the context cannot allow for an interpretation of spiritual “brother,” since the same “did not believe in him”! This disbelief in Jesus from his own “brothers,” at that point in time, is shown elsewhere:

Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for THEY SAID, “HE IS OUT OF HIS MIND.” . . . Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” (Mark 3:20,21,31-35).
Yes, you read Scripture right. **Even Mary, and her other sons, at one point during Jesus’ ministry, thought Jesus was “out of his mind”! **This, however, doesn’t mean that they didn’t afterwards come to believe on Jesus and get filled with the Holy Spirit, for they were in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost with the other 120:

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers (Acts 1:14).
There is additional proof that Jesus’ half-brothers came to faith in him. This is shown in **1 Cor. 9:5:

Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?**
 
I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother’s sons; for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me (Psa. 69:8,9)
That is a Messianic Psalm, that is, it has application to Messiah Jesus. This is clear since this Psalm is quoted in the New Testament (Jn. 2:17) and shown there to apply to the Lord. The point is: Jesus became "an alien to MY OWN MOTHER’S SONS."
First of all, everyone else can thank me later for turning down the size of the Metrolink’s font when quoting him! 😉

Second of all, Metro, isn’t Jesus a child of Israel. Do you think perhaps that is what He is talking about. Jesus is an alien to the Children of Israel?

If we take your analogy on all the Brothers and Sisters of Jesus as Brothers and Sisters of Jesus, then there were some 110 children of Mary praying in the upper room shortly before the Pentecost.

That would make the Blessed Mary, Our Lady of Perpetual Pregnancy. I’ve looked it up in the various Litanies, and it’s not one of her titles, my friend.
 
The word **brother **when it is used in these scriptures in reference to Jesus and His **brothers **is translated from the Greek adephos. This word could mean blood brother, half brother, cousin, nephew, or “much like a” brother.
 
The word **brother **when it is used in these scriptures in reference to Jesus and His **brothers **is translated from the Greek adephos. This word could mean blood brother, half brother, cousin, nephew, or “much like a” brother.
So Mary may NOT be “Our Lady of Perpetual Pregnancy”? 😉
 
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METROLINK13:
I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother’s sons; for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me (Psa. 69:8,9)

That is a Messianic Psalm, that is, it has application to Messiah Jesus. This is clear since this Psalm is quoted in the New Testament (Jn. 2:17) and shown there to apply to the Lord.

The point is: Jesus became “an alien to MY OWN MOTHER’S SONS.” This alienation is clearly evident at John 7:3-5. Before we look at that passage, please note that Scripture explicitly declares that Jesus’ mother (Mary) had other “sons” (Psalm 69:8)!

This verse alone is an irrefutable and devastating blow to the idea that the blessed Mary remained a virgin throughout her lifetime.
Because Jesus quoted one verse of a Psalm, that means the entire text of the Psalm refers to Him, and that we can safely assume the “I” in Psalm 69 is always in reference to Jesus? I don’t understand this logic.
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METROLINK13:
Remember, Joseph had no sexual union with Mary “till” Jesus, Mary’s “firstborn,” came into this world.
Please read “Brethren of the Lord”
 
I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother’s sons; for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me (Psa. 69:8,9)
That is a Messianic Psalm, that is, it has application to Messiah Jesus. This is clear since this Psalm is quoted in the New Testament (Jn. 2:17) and shown there to apply to the Lord. **The point is: Jesus became “an alien to MY OWN MOTHER’S SONS.” **This alienation is clearly evident at John 7:3-5. Before we look at that passage, please note that **Scripture explicitly declares that Jesus’ mother (Mary) had other “sons” (Psalm 69:8)! **This verse alone is an irrefutable and devastating blow to the idea that the blessed Mary remained a virgin throughout her lifetime.
This verse alone is an “irrefutable and devastating blow” to presumptuous Protestant fundamentalist interpretations of Scripture in opposition to the Sacred Tradition of the historic Catholic faith. If we read Psalm 69 in full, as it should be read, and apply everything it says to Jesus, then obviously it would appear that Mary had other children. Yet we would also have to own that our Lord had reproach, was foolish, and had sins that were hidden from God. :ouch: If we wish to affirm, in the reading of this psalm, that Mary had other children, then we must also espouse these corresponding blasphemous notions of Jesus. Perhaps these other children mentioned in the psalm actually relate to David, the psalmist, for we know for a fact that he did have other brothers - and indeed he was a sinner, at times foolish, and in need to be saved from his sins. :yup: Psalm 69 may even be referring to Israel as a mother. The fundamentalist tendency to remove verses from an entire reading and isolate them for the sake of accommodating his bias and satisfying his preconceived notions (The historic Christian faith is not a preconceived notion, since it comes to us from Jesus through the apostles.) leads one into error and reinforces his false beliefs.

PSALM 69 IS NOT A MESSIANIC PSALM. DAVID IS REFERRING TO HIMSELF.

ZECHARIAH 12, 10 IS A MESSIANIC PROPHECY.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
METROLINK:
In Jn. 7:3-5, we read:

Jesus’ brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea,… show yourself to the world."**This passage clearly shows the context cannot allow for an interpretation of spiritual “brother,” since the same “did not believe in him”! This disbelief in Jesus from his own “brothers,” at that point in time, is shown elsewhere:

Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered,… When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for **THEY SAID, “HE IS OUT OF HIS MIND.” . . . Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers (Acts 1:14).****

In John 7, 3-5 and Mark 3, 21 we see that younger “brothers” are advising Jesus. (Jesus would have been the eldest if he actually had biological brothers.) But this would have been a very disrespectful thing for younger siblings to do in public as devout Jews. So these “brothers” (adelphos) are probably just relatives of Jesus, not siblings (cf John 2, 12; Mk 6, 3), and they are never portrayed as disciples until after the resurrection, which shows they were not immediate relations of our Lord and somewhat distant. Again, Mary of Clopas is the mother of James the less and Joseph (Mt 27, 56; Mk 15, 47). The other Mary is the elder sister of our Lord’s mother, so that makes James and Joseph his cousins. In Mark 6, 3 these cousins of Jesus are called his “brothers” (adelphos). I’m sure you have heard by now that the term “brother(s)” designates a range of several different close relationships. So you cannot be sure that Jesus had siblings. To say that he did, by citing certain passages that contain the word “brother” (adelphos), would be begging the question. In Luke 22, 32 Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his “brethren” (adelphos or anepsios) in their faith. But it is obvious that Jesus is referring to the other apostles, not siblings of Peter. The term ‘adelphos’ may refer to either kin or disciples.

This is the accurate reading of Mark 3, 21 (NAB): When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said: “He is out of his mind.” Here we find that relatives of Jesus who had not yet come to believe in him, unlike our Lord’s cousins James and Joseph, who were closer to the holy family as the offsprings of Mary’s sister (the other Mary, of Clopas), attempted to correct and discourage Jesus. Against this background Jesus is informed of the arrival of his mother and closer relations and disciples: His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him (Mk 3, 31). Our Lord’s mother and disciples, who included close relatives of his, are presented as having nothing to do with those relatives who questioned Jesus and attempted to discourage him.

Acts 1, 14 (NAB) reads: All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women (sisters in Christ), and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers. Now we should observe that Protestant fundamentalists refer to these “brothers” (adelphos) as our Lord’s siblings. They likewise draw the false conclusion that Jesus had both uterine brothers and sisters by citing Mark 6, 3: “Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary (not a son), and the brother (cousin) of James and Joses and Judas (Jude) and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” Here we arrive at a noticeable discrepancy: In Acts we supposedly find that Jesus has only male siblings, whereas in Mark, he supposedly has both male and female siblings. If Jesus had in fact had both biological brothers and sisters, the latter would have accompanied their mother and brothers. And, if so, their presence would not have been discluded in this monumental recorded account of Pentecost. But Acts reads “Mary, the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.” So questions arise: Why aren’t our Lord’s so-called uterine sisters mentioned? Could it be that these sisters failed to accompany their mother and brothers to such an important gathering in the Christian community? I doubt it. For in fact we do have a record of our Lord’s sisters being present in the cenacle at Pentecost: “All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women…” 😉 It would have been redundant on Luke’s part to mention these sisters of Christ a second time in one breath. The sisters of our Lord were either his female kin or disciples, or both. Luke substitutes the term “sister” for women in general who followed Christ. These are the same sisters, with an additional number of female followers after the resurrection, whom Mark refers to - and they are not siblings of Jesus, for Luke presents these women before he even mentions Mary’s presence. The “sisters” are not our Lord’s siblings, just as the “brothers” aren’t either. :nope:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
PSALM 69 IS NOT A MESSIANIC PSALM. DAVID IS REFERRING TO HIMSELF.

ZECHARIAH 12, 10 IS A MESSIANIC PROPHECY.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
Psalm 69
The sixty-ninth psalm is a Messianic psalm. That is, it is a psalm of prophecy concerning Jesus Christ. And there are many scriptures within the psalm here that make reference to Jesus Christ.
Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for God. They that hate me without cause are more than the hairs of my head: they that would destroy me, being my enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restore that which I took not away. O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee. Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord God of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel. Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face (Psa 69:1-7).

Again, referring to Christ. For God’s sake He bore the reproach; shame covered His face.

I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children (Psa 69:8).

It said that His brothers did not believe in Him. They thought that He was crazy, actually.

For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me (Psa 69:9).

Remember when Jesus went into the temple and He saw them making merchandise, and He took and He made a scourge, a whip, and He began to drive out the moneychangers and those that were selling doves. And He said, “Get out of here! You’ve made my Father’s house a den of thieves**.” And then they remembered the scripture that was written of Him that said, “The zeal of Thine house hath eaten Me up.” **The zeal for the house of God, it just ate Him up when He saw the terrible things that were being done in the house of God in the name of God. I wonder what would be His reaction today if He should come and visit some of the bingo parties and other functions that have been devised to make money for the church.

“The zeal of Mine house hath eaten Me up. The reproaches of them that reproach Thee fall upon Me.”

When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach. I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them. They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of drunkards (Psa 69:10-12).

He is still the song of drunkards. The blasphemy when a person becomes intoxicated so often.

But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation (Psa 69:13).

Some believe that this is actually the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters (Psa 69:14).

You remember He said, "If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me."
Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. Hear me, O LORD; for thy loving-kindness is good: turn unto me according to the multitude of thy tender mercies. And hide not thy face from thy servant; for I am in trouble: hear me speedily. Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies. For thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonor: mine adversaries are all before thee. **Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness (Psa 69:15-20):

The fact that when Jesus was pierced with a sword there came forth blood and water indicates that actually His death was by a heart rupture. The fact that there was water that came forth with the blood indicates death by heart rupture. They broke, “Reproach,” he said, “hath broken my heart. I am full of heaviness.” **Also there is something to that bloody sweat that indicates much the same.

and I looked for some to take pity (Psa 69:20),

You remember in the Garden of Gethsemane, and in great heaviness, He sweat as it were, great drops of blood flowing to the ground. “And I looked for some to take pity.” You remember He came back to His disciples, but they were sleeping. “I looked for some to take pity,”

but there was none; for comforters, I found none (Psa 69:20).

“Oh Peter, could you not watch with Me one hour? Watch and pray.” “I looked for someone to have pity. I looked for comforters, but I found none.”

They gave me gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psa 69:21).
You remember that when Jesus cried, “I thirst,” someone took a sponge and filled it with vinegar and put it to His lips.
 
Lets continue the Psalm 69 analysis:
verses 24 - 29:
Make their own table a snare for them, a trap for their friends.

Make their eyes so dim they cannot see; keep their backs ever feeble.

Pour out your wrath upon them; let the fury of your anger overtake them.

Make their camp desolate, with none to dwell in their tents.

For they pursued the one you struck, added to the pain of the one you wounded.

Add that to their crimes; let them not attain to your reward.

Strike them from the book of the living; do not count them among the just!
These verses certainly do not represent the behavior of Jesus Christ. Rather, from the cross He said:
Luke 23:34:
…
“Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”
…
Can we really understand this Psalm as though all of the words spoken in the first person refer to Jesus Christ? I think the above verses are a bit hard to understand then.
 
Psalm 69
The sixty-ninth psalm is a Messianic psalm. That is, it is a psalm of prophecy concerning Jesus Christ. And there are many scriptures within the psalm here that make reference to Jesus Christ.
All right, then, let us agree that Psalm 69 is a Messianic Pslam - but not in its entirety. We know that prophecies can have more than one fulfillment. Take Samuel 2 7,14: ‘I will be his father, and he shall be my son; when he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men.’ This passage is to some extent a prophecy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah. Yet in the original context, God the Father is speaking about King David, saying that he will be a father unto him. What is said about King David in this passage may refer to Jesus Christ, but only to some extent. It does not refer to Jesus when it says “when he commits iniquity, I will chasten him”. The Son of Man did not “commit iniquity” for he was sinless. This part of the verse refers strictly to King David. It deals with the original context and its primary fulfillment. Likewise, the expression “my mother’s sons” in Psalm 69, 8 may not refer to a prophecy of the Messiah, but to its primary context, which would be King David’s relationship to his biological brothers. However, this verse may find a secondary fulfillment in the Gospel of John 1, 11: ‘He came to his own, but his own people did not receive him.’ This passage may have reference to Psalm 69, 8: ‘I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s children.’ But these “children” are not the offspring of the Virgin Mary, they are the people of Israel. In John 1, 11 we have “his own” (neuter: literally his own property and possession) and “his own people” (the Israelites, who belonged to God as his own chosen people, but who rejected the Messiah).

And he said to the Jews, “Behold your king” (The ultimate King David)! They cried out, “Take him away, take him away! Crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your king?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” Then he handed him over to be crucified." {John 19, 14-16}

Psalm 69, 8 could not be a prophetic fulfillment realized in the person of Jesus Christ with reference to any biological children of our Lord. :nope:

Zechariah 12, 10 makes it clear that Jesus was “an only son”. :yup:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Been busy but im back for now"

John 2:12 & John 7:1 & Acts 1:14 & Galatians 1:19 & 1 Corinthians 9:5

These verses prove beyond any question that Jesus had literal blood brothers through Mary. Notice that brother cannot refer to “brethren in the church” kind of usage because other “brethren in the church” are listed beside “Jesus brothers”. Of the 20+ times “Jesus brothers” are referred to. NEVER are they called cousins or relatives. How could the Holy Spirit say it to make the fact any clearer?

John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.
John 7:1 And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was at hand. 3 His brothers therefore said to Him, "Depart from here, and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may behold Your works which You are doing. 4 “For no one does anything in secret, when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him. 6 Jesus therefore *said to them, "My time is not yet at hand, but your time is always opportune. 7 "The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8 “Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 And having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. 10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as it were, in secret.
Acts 1:14 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Galatians 1:18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. **19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. **
1 Corinthians 9:4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the **apostles, and the brothers **of the Lord, and Cephas?
Colossians 4:10

Cannot simply be cousins because Colossians 4:10 uses a separate Greek word. **
Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also
Barnabas’ cousin Mark **(about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him);
The bible never uses these two Greek words anepsios or sungenis in reference to Jesus brothers. For Catholic doctrine to be true,

Greek Dictionary: cousin/Relative:

anepsios (ajneyiov" , (431)), in Col. 4:10 denotes a cousin rather than a nephew (A.V., “sister’s son”). “Cousin” is its meaning in various periods of Greek writers.¶ In this sense it is used in the Sept., in Numb. 36:11.¶ In later writings it denotes a nephew; hence the A.V. rendering. As Lightfoot says, there is no reason to suppose that the Apostle would have used it in any other than its proper sense. We are to understand, therefore, that Mark was the cousin of Barnabas.
sungenis (suggeniv" , (4773)) in Luke 1:36 (so in the most authentic mss.) and sungeneµs in ver. 58 (plural), A.V., “cousin” and “cousins,” respectively signify “kinswoman” and “kinsfolk,” (R.V.); so the R.V. and A.V. in 2:44 and 21:16. The word lit. signifies ‘born with,’ i.e., of the same stock, or descent; hence kinsman, kindred. See Kin, Kinsfolk, Kinswoman.
Note: In Col. 4:10, A.V., anepsios (cp. Lat., nepos, whence Eng., nephew), a cousin (so, R.V.), is translated “sister’s son.” See Cousin.¶

**John 1:41 He found first his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah”

read bible.ca/cath-mary-had-many-children.htm
 
Been busy but im back for now"

John 2:12 & John 7:1 & Acts 1:14 & Galatians 1:19 & 1 Corinthians 9:5

These verses prove beyond any question that Jesus had literal blood brothers through Mary. Notice that brother cannot refer to “brethren in the church” kind of usage because other “brethren in the church” are listed beside “Jesus brothers”. Of the 20+ times “Jesus brothers” are referred to. NEVER are they called cousins or relatives. How could the Holy Spirit say it to make the fact any clearer?

John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.
John 7:1 And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was at hand. 3 His brothers therefore said to Him, "Depart from here, and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may behold Your works which You are doing. 4 “For no one does anything in secret, when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him. 6 Jesus therefore *said to them, "My time is not yet at hand, but your time is always opportune. 7 "The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8 “Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 And having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. 10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as it were, in secret.
Acts 1:14 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Galatians 1:18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. **19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. **
1 Corinthians 9:4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the **apostles, and the brothers **of the Lord, and Cephas?
Colossians 4:10

Cannot simply be cousins because Colossians 4:10 uses a separate Greek word. **
Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also
Barnabas’ cousin Mark **(about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him);
The bible never uses these two Greek words anepsios or sungenis in reference to Jesus brothers. For Catholic doctrine to be true,

Greek Dictionary: cousin/Relative:

anepsios (ajneyiov" , (431)), in Col. 4:10 denotes a cousin rather than a nephew (A.V., “sister’s son”). “Cousin” is its meaning in various periods of Greek writers.¶ In this sense it is used in the Sept., in Numb. 36:11.¶ In later writings it denotes a nephew; hence the A.V. rendering. As Lightfoot says, there is no reason to suppose that the Apostle would have used it in any other than its proper sense. We are to understand, therefore, that Mark was the cousin of Barnabas.
sungenis (suggeniv" , (4773)) in Luke 1:36 (so in the most authentic mss.) and sungeneµs in ver. 58 (plural), A.V., “cousin” and “cousins,” respectively signify “kinswoman” and “kinsfolk,” (R.V.); so the R.V. and A.V. in 2:44 and 21:16. The word lit. signifies ‘born with,’ i.e., of the same stock, or descent; hence kinsman, kindred. See Kin, Kinsfolk, Kinswoman.
Note: In Col. 4:10, A.V., anepsios (cp. Lat., nepos, whence Eng., nephew), a cousin (so, R.V.), is translated “sister’s son.” See Cousin.¶

**John 1:41 He found first his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah”

read bible.ca/cath-mary-had-many-children.htm
Trouble is NT is written in Greek. Aramaic and Hebrew is what Jesus spoke- your talking translation difficulties. How do express things in one language that does not exist in the other? Semitic languages have no such distinction. It is common even now not to make distinction among extended family. Also there is an old tradition that says that Joseph was widower with children when he married Mary.So they would be Half brothers or sister which again has no distinction in Hebrew.Back to square one!🙂
 
Trouble is NT is written in Greek. Aramaic and Hebrew is what Jesus spoke- your talking translation difficulties. How do express things in one language that does not exist in the other? Semitic languages have no such distinction. It is common even now not to make distinction among extended family. Also there is an old tradition that says that Joseph was widower with children when he married Mary.So they would be Half brothers or sister which again has no distinction in Hebrew.Back to square one!🙂
Assuming that Jesus/apostles spoke Aramaic, yes, Aramaic would be more accurate. The problem is that it is not 100% sure that Jesus/apostles spoke the original words in Aramaic. He could have said it in Hebrew, or maybe even Greek. Whatever the case, even if Jesus did say the original words in Aramaic, we cannot base our interpretation on what Jesus possibly said in Aramaic, and God chose to “God-breathe” the New Testament in Greek. So, we must base our interpretation on the Greek, which we have, not on the Aramaic, which would be speculation at best.
 
Assuming that Jesus/apostles spoke Aramaic, yes, Aramaic would be more accurate. The problem is that it is not 100% sure that Jesus/apostles spoke the original words in Aramaic. He could have said it in Hebrew, or maybe even Greek. Whatever the case, even if Jesus did say the original words in Aramaic, we cannot base our interpretation on what Jesus possibly said in Aramaic, and God chose to “God-breathe” the New Testament in Greek. So, we must base our interpretation on the Greek, which we have, not on the Aramaic, which would be speculation at best.
what?-sorry that doesn’t make any sense at all.What is related is sacred and God breathed-the language isn’t.Just like a translation of the Bible -text may be inerrant -but translations are fallible.Common theology says the original writer was inspired not the translator or translation.:rolleyes:Besides before it took written form it was oral in the prominent language of the day-Aramaic.:rolleyes:
 
I don’t mean to dismiss you but if you use the search feature you will find… Ohhhhhh… I don’t know… a thousand threads on this subject.

Check 'em out.
 
I don’t mean to dismiss you but if you use the search feature you will find… Ohhhhhh… I don’t know… a thousand threads on this subject.

Check 'em out.
Oh yeah-some of these threads are a little redundant:p But for some reason some folks think that if they put their views on different threads that somehow we will start to buy it:eek: If only they had lines that were more creative then the standard bunk that they are fed.😃
 
Been busy but im back for now"

John 2:12 & John 7:1 & Acts 1:14 & Galatians 1:19 & 1 Corinthians 9:5

These verses prove beyond any question that Jesus had literal blood brothers through Mary. Notice that brother cannot refer to “brethren in the church” kind of usage because other “brethren in the church” are listed beside “Jesus brothers”.

John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.
John 7:1 And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was at hand. 3 His brothers therefore said to Him, "Depart from here, and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may behold Your works which You are doing. 4 “For no one does anything in secret, when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him. 6 Jesus therefore *said to them, "My time is not yet at hand, but your time is always opportune. 7 "The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8 “Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 And having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. 10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as it were, in secret.
Acts 1:14 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Galatians 1:18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. **19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. **
1 Corinthians 9:4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the **apostles, and the brothers **of the Lord, and Cephas?
Colossians 4:10
Are you sure? You are creating a confused juxtaposition as a result of your preconceived notions. The word “brethren” (‘adelphos’) can be used interchangeably, even in a single passage to denote kinsmen or disciples, or both, or to distinguish those who are closer disciples than others.

In John 2, 12, we find a distinction between the disciples who were related to Jesus (‘adelphos’) and the rest, or those closer to him (the Twelve / ‘adelphos’) and the others.

To understand how ‘adelphos’ (brethren) can be used interchangeably, John 7, 9 must be read as the author intended this passage to be read: “His brothers (‘adelphos’ / apostles) therefore said to him, 'Depart from here, and go into Judea, that your disciples ( less close and sceptical followers) may behold the works you are doing…For not even his brothers (less close followers / disciples, distinguished from the apostles who were much closer) were believing in him.” Can you see the confusion you have created? The “brothers” in v.5 refer back to the sceptical disciples in v.3. These brothers are not an additional party, the uterine brothers of Jesus, but the general followers outside the circle of the Twelve.

With regard to Acts 1, 14. I pointed out above in this thread that we have to ask ourselves of the wherabouts of Jesus’ supposed uterine sisters (Mt 13, 56; Mk 6, 3). Luke does not record their presence along with their mother and alleged brothers at such an important Christian gathering. Were they at home doing the laundry? This would have been impious and negligent on their part, something Mary would definitely not allow. :nope: If Jesus did in fact have sisters, they would surely have accompanied their mother and brothers. And if so, their presence would have been recorded. The “brothers” (‘adelphos’) are probably disciples and wider relatives. The women are most likely the same women who stood with Mary near the Cross.

Galatians 1, 18: “But I did not see any other of the apostles, except James, the Lord’s brother.” This is James the less, a cousin of Jesus, the son of Mary’s elder sister, Mary of Clopas, and son of Alphaeus (Clopas). The word “brother” (‘adelphos’), in this case, does not strictly designate James as our Lord’s cousin, but rather as his relative. A relative is not necessarily a cousin, but a cousin is a relative. 😉 So Colossians 4, 10 is a red herring: Nobody is saying that ‘adelphos’ strictly means cousin. It can mean relative, which includes cousin. And James was both a relative and an apostle. You must know that Greek writers, such as Plato, used ‘adelphos’ when referring to individuals who were related by blood - but not necessarily from the same womb. I can provide examples if you wish.

Corinthians 9, 5: “Do we not have a right to take along with us a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?” Again, “brothers” (‘adelphos’) does not necessarily mean uterine brothers and sisters, as it didn’t for Plato and other known Greek writers. The brothers could refer to relatives of Jesus who were apostles as well, including the ones mentioned in the Gospels. I’m sorry, but you have not offered decisive proof that Jesus had siblings. Please go back to Zechariah 12, 10: Jesus was “an only son” and “firstborn” (consecrated to God) of the Virgin Mary. The prophet refutes the Protestant scholars who ineptly dabble in Greek and Hebrew linguistics.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
What do you mean
what is related is sacred and God breathed
…?be more specific please.
Just like a translation of the Bible -text may be inerrant -but translations are fallible
The doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible teaches that scripture is “God-breathed”; that is, God personally superintended the writing process, guiding the human authors so that His complete message was recorded for us. The Bible is truly God’s Word. During the writing process, the personality and writing style of each author was allowed expression; however, God so directed the writers that the 66 books they produced were free of error and were exactly what God wanted us to have. See 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21.
Of course, when we speak of “inspiration,” we are referring only to the process by which the original documents were composed. After that, the doctrine of the preservation of the Bible takes over. If God went to such great lengths to give us His Word, surely He would also take steps to preserve that Word unchanged. What we see in history is that God did exactly that.

The Old Testament Hebrew scriptures were painstakingly copied by Jewish scribes. Groups such as the Sopherim, the Zugoth, the Tannaim, and the Masoretes had a deep reverence for the texts they were copying. Their reverence was coupled with strict rules governing their work: the type of parchment used, the size of the columns, the kind of ink, and the spacing of words were all prescribed. Writing anything from memory was expressly forbidden, and the lines, words, and even the individual letters were methodically counted as a means of double-checking accuracy. The result of all this was that the words written by Isaiah’s pen are still available today. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls clearly confirms the precision of the Hebrew text.

The same is true for the New Testament Greek text. Thousands of Greek texts, some dating back to nearly A.D. 117, are available. The slight variations among the texts—not one of which affects an article of faith—are easily reconciled. Scholars have concluded that the New Testament we have at present is virtually unchanged from the original writings. Textual scholar Sir Frederic Kenyon said about the Bible, “It is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved. . . . This can be said of no other ancient book in the world.”

This brings us to the translation of the Bible. Translation is an interpretative process, to some extent. When translating from one language to another, choices must be made. Should it be the more exact word, even if the meaning of that word is unclear to the modern reader? Or should it be a corresponding thought, at the expense of a more literal reading?

As an example, in Colossians 3:12, Paul says we are to put on “bowels of mercies” (KJV). The Greek word for “bowels,” which is literally “intestines,” comes from a root word meaning “spleen.” The KJV translators chose a literal translation of the word. The translators of the NASB chose “heart of compassion”—the “heart” being what today’s reader thinks of as the seat of emotions. The Amplified Bible has it as “tenderhearted pity and mercy.” The NIV simply puts “compassion.”

So, the KJV is the most literal in the above example, but the other translations certainly do justice to the verse. The core meaning of the command is to have compassionate feelings.

Most translations of the Bible are done by committee. This helps to guarantee that no individual prejudice or theology will affect the decisions of word choice, etc. Of course, the committee itself may have a particular agenda or bias (such as those producing the current “gender-neutral” mistranslations). But there is still plenty of good scholarship being done, and many good translations are available.

Having a good, honest translation of the Bible is important. A good translating team will have done its homework and will let the Bible speak for itself.

As a general rule, the more literal translations, such as the KJV, NKJV, ASB and NASB, have less “interpretative” work. The “freer” translations, such as the NIV, NLT, and CEV, by necessity do more “interpretation” of the text, but are generally more readable. Then there are the paraphrases, such as The Message and The Living Bible, which are not really translations at all but one person’s retelling of the Bible.

So, with all that in view, are translations of the Bible inspired and inerrant? The answer is no, they are not. God nowhere extends the promise of inspiration to translations of His Word. While many of the translations available today are superb in quality, they are not inspired by God, and are not perfect. Does this mean we cannot trust a translation? Again, the answer is no. Through careful study of Scripture, with the Holy Spirit’s guidance, we can properly understand, interpret, and apply Scripture. Again, due to the faithful efforts of dedicated Christian translators (and of course the oversight of the Holy Spirit), the translations available today are superb and trustworthy. The fact that we cannot ascribe inerrancy to a translation should motivate us towards even closer study, and away from blind devotion towards any particular translation.
 
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