What Cardinal Burke really said about 'resisting' Pope Francis

  • Thread starter Thread starter _Abyssinia
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Perhaps all Catholics should trust in the Lord. After all, it is still His Church and He has made Promises about His Church.

Jesus, I trust in you! 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
That is not to say however, that doctrine can’t be undermined. Read Trent’s Session 22’s doctrine on the liturgy, for example, especially on the part about low-tones being used throughout the canon of the Mass. Technically it hasn’t been violated because it doesn’t say it MUST be used but our Trent fathers sure went to a lot of trouble to try to preserve it.

Just sayin…

.
Click to expand...
Low tones is not doctrinal it is disciplinary; and this whole area is one that is abused by those who continue to say that the OF is invalid.
 
otjm said:
Low tones is not doctrinal it is disciplinary;
Click to expand...
You made my point. What’s to say that they won’t explore the possibility of introducing certain elements as disciplinary behind the doctrine of matrimony/divorce/remarriage without technically changing the doctrine?

Frankly I find the concern to undermine the Church’s doctrine in all this as completely justified.
 
ProVobis said:
You made my point. What’s to say that they won’t explore the possibility of introducing certain elements as disciplinary behind the doctrine of matrimony/divorce/remarriage without technically changing the doctrine?

Frankly I find the concern to undermine the Church’s doctrine in all this as completely justified.
Click to expand...
If by “they” you mean the Pope, I seriously doubt he will. Either we trust that the Holy Spirit was guiding the consistory, or we don’t. I am in the former camp.

If by “they” you mean certain bishops, the last 2,000 years should show ample evidence that not only has it occurred in the past, but also that will continue to occur until the Second Coming. Ordination, in and of itself, never has been a guarantee of faithfulness.

It is my presumption that the Holy Spirit guides the Church and the Pope, and he will lead the Church faithfully. Some seem to have presumptions other than that.
 
irishpatrick said:
Perhaps all Catholics should trust in the Lord. After all, it is still His Church and He has made Promises about His Church.

Jesus, I trust in you! 🙂
Click to expand...
…especially since nothing has actually happened. Don’t go borrowing trouble. Or as Jesus reminded us, “Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof.”

Furthermore, when we do find out the results of the synod. If we disagree, we would do well to become students and learn what there is to be learned of the rationale before we try and take the role of rebel.
 
pnewton said:
…especially since nothing has actually happened. Don’t go borrowing trouble. Or as Jesus reminded us, “Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof.”

Furthermore, when we do find out the results of the synod. If we disagree, we would do well to become students and learn what there is to be learned of the rationale before we try and take the role of rebel.
Click to expand...
Amen. Though I will go/stay with Scripture…
 
otjm said:
… and he will lead the Church faithfully.
Click to expand...
If by that you mean people won’t be receiving communion when they are knowingly in the state of mortal sin, good luck with that.
 
pnewton said:
…especially since nothing has actually happened. Don’t go borrowing trouble. Or as Jesus reminded us, “Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof.”

Furthermore, when we do find out the results of the synod. If we disagree, we would do well to become students and learn what there is to be learned of the rationale before we try and take the role of rebel.
Click to expand...
Since the result of the synod is, by design, a recommendation, a mix of agreement and disagreement is virtually a given. One of the benefits of the intense media coverage of these gatherings is the example of good, holy men disagreeing and continuing to discuss and enjoy communion with each other. Disagreement is healthy. Taking side and creating factions is not.
 
pnewton said:
…especially since nothing has actually happened. Don’t go borrowing trouble. Or as Jesus reminded us, “Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof.”

Furthermore, when we do find out the results of the synod. If we disagree, we would do well to become students and learn what there is to be learned of the rationale before we try and take the role of rebel.
Click to expand...
Indeed.

I think to trust in the Lord as we need to do. If hwe umans can see possible issues or problems in the world, how much more does the Lord see?
 
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/39155/

Cardinal Wuerl’s response to Burke (and dissenters)
　
“One of the things I have learned though over all of these years since those early naïve days in 1961 is that on closer examination there is a common thread that runs through all of these dissenters. They disagree with the Pope because he does not agree with them and therefore follow their position.”

This is the conclusion the Archbishop of Washington Cardinal Donald Wuerl arrives at in an article published on his blog, titled: “The Pope, Touchstone of Faith and Unity”

The US cardinal’s comment focuses on those within the Church who express their opposition to the Pope. Wuerl does not name names but says he has received “an interview” and “an article” “by brother bishops” by email. An interview Cardinal Leo Raymond Burke gave to a French television programme sparked a debate in recent days. In the interview, the cardinal stated that he intended “to stand up to” the Pope if he decided to open up to the possibility of granting remarried divorcees access to the sacraments.

Wuerl says he was present at last Sunday’s Angelus which was attended by thousands of people and recalled that "this enormously popular and revered successor to Peter spoke about the tenderness of Jesus, his loving compassion and at the same time our need to be caring and compassionate to our fellow human beings.
 
Sirach2 said:
“One of the things I have learned though over all of these years since those early naïve days in 1961 is that on closer examination there is a common thread that runs through all of these dissenters. They disagree with the Pope because he does not agree with them and therefore follow their position.” Cardinal Wuerl
Click to expand...
Rather than address the specific points raised by “the dissenters” the cardinal demeans them personally. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Ender
 
Suudy said:
Well, the article title is certainly provocative. Exactly how are Burke and others dissenting? To what exactly are they dissenting?
Click to expand...
You are asking the wrong person. 😃 Cardinal Wuerl accepts comments on his blog, where the article originated. Maybe you should write to him. I think there were clear hints in the article of what the dissent involved.
 
Sirach2 said:
You are asking the wrong person. 😃 Cardinal Wuerl accepts comments on his blog, where the article originated. Maybe you should write to him. I think there were clear hints in the article of what the dissent involved.
Click to expand...
I think it is wrong for members of the Magestrium to speak in “hints”
 
estesbob said:
I think it is wrong for members of the Magestrium to speak in “hints”
Click to expand...
And I think it is wrong to publicly air one’s disagreement with a brother cleric, and I commend his prudence in withholding the particular details again. If you recall, we were taught by Jesus to go directly to the person. There were certainly sufficient news releases that spelled out the problem, so he did not need to repeat it.
 
Sirach2 said:
And I think it is wrong to publicly air one’s disagreement with a brother cleric, and I commend his prudence in withholding the particular details again. If you recall, we were taught by Jesus to go directly to the person. There were certainly sufficient news releases that spelled out the problem, so he did not need to repeat it.
Click to expand...
Who aired who’s disagreement? Again, go back to +Burke’s statements. What specific statement by Papa Francis did +Burke disagree with?
 
Suudy said:
Who aired who’s disagreement? Again, go back to +Burke’s statements. What specific statement by Papa Francis did +Burke disagree with?
Click to expand...
The link merely copied what Wuerl said in his personal blog. He did not take out a press release, as Burke has done repeatedly.

Again, you are asking the wrong person and I see no value in second guessing the matter.
 
Here is an excerpt of what Fr Zuhlsdorf has to say about Cardinal Burke’s comments:
It seems to me that Card. Burke’s response was correct and appropriate. He didn’t say that that is what is going on now, that he is resisting the Pope now. He was asked a hypothetical question that all Catholics should be able to answer.
Click to expand...
This is not a new question and answers to the question are not new. In Acts 5:29 Peter says, “We ought to obey God, rather than men.” In Galatians 2:11 Paul says, “But when Cephas [Peter] was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.” Through the centuries great Fathers and Doctors of the Church along with many prominent theologians have pondered the hypothetical situation of a Pope who goes off the rails and what the faithful ought to do in response. They conclude that if even a Pope errs in some matter, they must be resisted for the sake of avoiding scandal, defending the Faith, and the salvation of souls.
Click to expand...
So, in Card. Burke’s response, there is nothing terribly new. He is merely stating what all Catholics ought to know and ought to do.
Click to expand...
Should it happen, quod Deus avertat, that even the Holy Father try to change clear Catholic teaching founded in the clear words of Christ Himself or the clear teaching of the Magisterium rooted Scripture and Tradition, then the Catholic faithful would have to resist him in that matter. For example, were a Pope to attempt to ordain a woman, he must be resisted. Were a Pope to attempt to marry two men or approve of such a thing, he must be resisted.
Click to expand...
However, I don’t believe that we will ever see such a situation.
Click to expand...
I am with Benedict XVI on this one. Before Joseph Ratzinger was elevated to the See of Peter he explained something about the working of the Holy Spirit in the election of a Pope. I, like Ratzinger, do not think that the Holy Spirit directly chooses the Pope, just as I do not think that the Holy Spirit dictated word for word the Scriptures which we hold to be divinely inspired. God leaves a lot of room for human insights and will. What the Holy Spirit does do, however, is ensure in His providence, that the Pope who is elected isn’t going to be a total disaster for the Church. Similarly, just as I believe that the Holy Spirit guides and works within the mind and will of Popes in their governance of the Church and in teaching, I don’t think the Holy Spirit tells them directly what to do. Popes remain men, subject to the problems all men have. Popes can err in judgment. They can weaken in will. They can become infirm, ill, and even become demented or otherwise off their rockers. In that situation, I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit, in that role of preserving the Church against the attacks of Hell and in guaranteeing the Rule of Faith and the Magisterium, would intervene. What might the Holy Spirit do to prevent disaster? That’s hard to say. However, I wouldn’t rule out that the souls of hypothetical Pope Nutcase or Pope Loonytoon would suddenly be called forth from this earthly vale of tears to their eternal reward before God’s throne, were they about to gravely damage the Church in a fundamental way. The stakes would have to be pretty high, and only the Holy Spirit would grasp those stakes. Moreover, just as the human body and mind can take a lot of punishment and wounds, so too the Body of Christ the Church. A good father doesn’t stop junior from running simply because he might fall and skin a knee or, even better, just because he has fallen and skinned a knee. So too, God the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
wdtprs.com/blog/2015/02/when-would-we-have-to-resist-the-pope-wherein-fr-z-rants/
 
Sirach2 said:
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/39155/

Cardinal Wuerl’s response to Burke (and dissenters)
　
“One of the things I have learned though over all of these years since those early naïve days in 1961 is that on closer examination there is a common thread that runs through all of these dissenters. They disagree with the Pope because he does not agree with them and therefore follow their position.”

This is the conclusion the Archbishop of Washington Cardinal Donald Wuerl arrives at in an article published on his blog, titled: “The Pope, Touchstone of Faith and Unity”

The US cardinal’s comment focuses on those within the Church who express their opposition to the Pope. Wuerl does not name names but says he has received “an interview” and “an article” “by brother bishops” by email. An interview Cardinal Leo Raymond Burke gave to a French television programme sparked a debate in recent days. In the interview, the cardinal stated that he intended “to stand up to” the Pope if he decided to open up to the possibility of granting remarried divorcees access to the sacraments.

Wuerl says he was present at last Sunday’s Angelus which was attended by thousands of people and recalled that "this enormously popular and revered successor to Peter spoke about the tenderness of Jesus, his loving compassion and at the same time our need to be caring and compassionate to our fellow human beings.
Click to expand...
The title of the article is deceptive, since there is no mention of Cardinal Burke on Cardinal Wuerl’s blog, or in the above article. But then that’s not unusual for Vatican Insider’s writer Andrea Tornielli, who also wrote a deceptive article about the SSPX/Vatican negotiations a few years ago, which caused problems for the negotiations. Also, putting the words…“and dissenters”…in the title is an attempt to make Cardinal Burke out to be a dissenter by association. From what is he dissenting, though?

The long knives are coming out now. Those who support proper Catholic teaching will be persecuted by those who are for “hope and change” during the upcoming synod (I’m mainly referring to those in the media; not Cardinal Wuerl).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top