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MrS
Guest
Spoken like a true non Catholic.
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Agomemnon
Guest
why the defense of the New Mass?
Hasn’t the liturgical abuses and novelites and ‘ever-changing’ face of the new massc confirm much of what Ottiaviani said?
Ok fine.
What abut Dieterick Von Hildebrand? He wrote about the New Mass as well but I think was clearer and more prophetic about its inherent problems.
If that’ doesn’t cause pause then let’s just celebrate the Paul VI Missal as Pope Paul VI intented.
Latin for the Consecration and the Creed (no vernacular in its core)
Only Men and boys serving the altar. (As is Holy Tradition in both East and West)
Ad Orientum (that is the priest oriented with the People not facing them all the time)
Kneeling to recieve the Host on the tongue.
Tabernacle still upon the altar.
(by the way just to be clear…not lay distributors period).
Now which mass are we talking about? The Mass of Paul VI or somethng else standing in its place?
Hasn’t the liturgical abuses and novelites and ‘ever-changing’ face of the new massc confirm much of what Ottiaviani said?
Ok fine.
What abut Dieterick Von Hildebrand? He wrote about the New Mass as well but I think was clearer and more prophetic about its inherent problems.
If that’ doesn’t cause pause then let’s just celebrate the Paul VI Missal as Pope Paul VI intented.
Latin for the Consecration and the Creed (no vernacular in its core)
Only Men and boys serving the altar. (As is Holy Tradition in both East and West)
Ad Orientum (that is the priest oriented with the People not facing them all the time)
Kneeling to recieve the Host on the tongue.
Tabernacle still upon the altar.
(by the way just to be clear…not lay distributors period).
Now which mass are we talking about? The Mass of Paul VI or somethng else standing in its place?
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FrmrTrad
Guest
Try not to evaluate one rite strictly in terms of another, and recall that the Church may change disciplines if she thinks it necessary. Traditionalists tend to evaluate the Tridentine rite with every degree of tenderness imaginable, ever seeking ways to suffuse their understanding of it with value, while they evaluate the Pauline rite with as much hostility as possible, assuming it to have no value. Some prayers in the Pauline rite are said softly. Priests receiving alone = discipline. Tridentine rite contained no errors, nor does the Pauline rite contain errors. The mass is sacrifice, praise, thanksgiving.
All rites are precious sources of understanding.
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bear06
Guest
Selective history doesn’t pass muster. Cardinal Ottaviani who looked at one of the first drafts of the mass tore it apart. That’s what he was asked to do. However, after knowing the final draft he approved it - twice! Why is always half the story told and why is there always a conspiracy theory when reality doesn’t go your way?
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TNT
Guest
Franciscum said:
True, it’s a Golden Canon…with a Firewall.
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TNT
Guest
And Saint Padre Pio, he loved the NO Mass by getting permission to never say it. But then a 50 yr stigmata may have been a conspiracy theory also.
I was wondering if there are any Eucharistic miracles certified by the Church originating in the NO Mass. We know of those from the Traditional Latin Mass, which would only lead me to believe that God Himself approved it, no? If God put His Approval on the Traditional Latin Mass, who am I to say another is Superior to it in the Worship of The Trinity?
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Franciscum
Guest
1.a.) I only care what the Church directs. It neither bothers me that some prayers in the Tridentine Mass are inaudible, nor that all are audible in the Novus Ordo Mass.
2.a.) Again, it’s up to the Church. Whatever the Church decides is good with me. I attend the Mass in English, Spanish, Latin and Old Salvonic (Divine Liturgy actually.) None are better or worse than the others.
3.a.) You mean a private Mass? I certainly believe they have their place – like when a priest is high up in the mountains hiking by himself. Otherwise I personally think that concelebrated Masses are far more appropriate than what we saw at Vatican Council II – row after row of bishops, shoulder to shoulder, celebrating their own “private” Masses on tiny altars – in the same room.
4.a.) I’m not “against” the Tridentine Mass. I’m against those who use the Tridentine Mass as a wedge to create dissent within the Church.
5.a.) A sacrifice – the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to God the Father for all of mankind’s sins – past, present and future.
Hope that helps.
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Franciscum
Guest
1.) Because the Church has approved the “New Mass.”
2.) There was liturgical abuse LONG before the prommulgation of the Novus Ordo Mass.
End of story.
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Franciscum
Guest
Indeed. Revisionist history, be it secular or ecclesial is always a waste of resources.
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RSiscoe
Guest
Franciscum said:
I don’t know if I understood that. Are you saying you do believe the Mass is the Sacrifice of Jesus transcending time and space? If so, I’m very glad you do.
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Franciscum
Guest
It would be very productive if some “traditionalists” could see just how much they are abiding the enemy with their outlandish (and inaccurate) statements.
When all is said and done, many “traditonalists” harm the Church in the same way many “extreme liberals” harm the Church.
The very people derided by the “traditonalists” are actually those with which they have the most in common! Fringe elements (be they “conservative” or “liberal”) have always been a source of problems for the Church over the centuries…
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Franciscum
Guest
Of course.
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TNT
Guest
The much larger point is: the overwhelming majoity of those who identify as Catholic go to NIETHER mass.
The reverse was true when there was only the Traditional Latin Mass… Just a conspiracy-free coincidence, of course.
The reverse was true when there was only the Traditional Latin Mass… Just a conspiracy-free coincidence, of course.
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Franciscum
Guest
Poppycock.
People who share your terribly reductionist (and stultified) position are a prime souce of problems within the Church today.
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TNT
Guest
Next step is to show where the trads instigated the homo-seminaries and the priest sex abuse of youth, and convinced the faithful to abandon Sunday mass practice.Oh, and convince 70+ % of Catholics to deny the Real Presence dogma.
It’s always a good plan to blame the dog for barking…never what he’s barking at.
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Franciscum
Guest
Your comments are almost scary…
Catholic dogma is that the Catholic Church is the embodiment of Jesus Christ on Earth. And all know (I hope) that Jesus Christ is one person of the Holy Trinity. Given that the Church has approved the Novus Ordo Mass, it follows that God has approved the Novus Ordo Mass! No new Mass would be prommulgated without God’s approval through the Church! Dang!
Time to fire-up those black helocopters…
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TNT
Guest
Ad Hominem
Ad Hominem
Ad Hominem
The 2 questions were , however, not directly answered.
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Franciscum
Guest
1.) Where were all the “trads” when it became obvious that something needed to be done, before many seminaries became the cess-pits they are today? Why didn’t they do something? Why did they also fail to do anything in the ensuing years as many seminaries went down the tubes?
(Don’t tell me they were focused on debating non-issues like: female covered heads, only receiving on tongue and communion rails?) These “trads” are every bit as responsible for the homosexual issues within the Church as anyone else is.
2.) Plenty of “traditonal” clergy memebers have been involved with sex abuse (as participants) in the Church over the past 2,000 years. To suggest that only “liberals” molest children or rape youngsters (or condone these actions) is to show ignorance of the history of the Church.
3.) No evidence whatsoever that only “liberals” have "convinced the faithful to abandon Sunday Mass practice That’s pure fantasy.
4.) No evidence whatsoever that only “liberals” have contributed to many Catholics denying the Real Presence today. Again, pure fantasy.
Next?
P.S. If you cite Mike Rose (a book-keeper by training), I’ll have a difficult time refraining from laughing…
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misericordie
Guest
Franciscum said:
You seem to really be against what the church teaches: after all, since 1988, catholics have the RIGHT to attend the Tridentine Mass and be 100% traditional.
Secondly, seems your solution to “dialogue” is to BASH those who do attend the Tridentine Mass (which are not only MANY here in these forums, but in the whole USA and world) by being perpously spiteful. Ummmm, smells like a leftover from the 1960’s kumbayah crowd.
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Franciscum
Guest
Good tap-dance…
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