What Catholicism seems to be missing

[catholictiger]

Something I have seen a-little to many times in this thread which I think are slightly problematic is this diminishing of the liturgy of the Word and of the Homily. I could go through point by point and address each one but that would take to long so I will make a comment in general.

The Liturgy of the Word is as much a part of the Holy Mass as the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Each have equal importance and one can’t be said to take priority over the other.

But I’m not good at explaining this I’ll let Benedict XVI do the talking for me. (I would suggest reading this entire document it is amazing.)

1. From these accounts it is clear that Scripture itself points us towards an appreciation of its own unbreakable bond with the Eucharist. “It can never be forgotten that the divine word, read and proclaimed by the Church, has as its one purpose the sacrifice of the new new covenant and the banquet of grace, that is, the Eucharist”.[193] Word and Eucharist are so deeply bound together that we cannot understand one without the other: the word of God sacramentally takes flesh in the event of the Eucharist. The Eucharist opens us to an understanding of Scripture, just as Scripture for its part illumines and explains the mystery of the Eucharist. Unless we acknowledge the Lord’s real presence in the Eucharist, our understanding of Scripture remains imperfect. For this reason “the Church has honoured the word of God and the Eucharistic mystery with the same reverence, although not with the same worship, and has always and everywhere insisted upon and sanctioned such honour. Moved by the example of her Founder, she has never ceased to celebrate his paschal mystery by coming together to read ‘in all the Scriptures the things concerning him’ (Lk 24:27) and to carry out the work of salvation through the celebration of the memorial of the Lord and through the sacraments”.[194]
2. In considering the Church as “the home of the word”,[181] attention must first be given to the sacred liturgy, for the liturgy is the privileged setting in which God speaks to us in the midst of our lives; he speaks today to his people, who hear and respond. Every liturgical action is by its very nature steeped in sacred Scripture. In the words of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, “sacred Scripture is of the greatest importance in the celebration of the liturgy. From it are taken the readings, which are explained in the homily and the psalms that are sung. From Scripture the petitions, prayers and liturgical hymns receive their inspiration and substance. From Scripture the liturgical actions and signs draw their meaning”.[182] Even more, it must be said that Christ himself “is present in his word, since it is he who speaks when Scripture is read in Church”.[183] Indeed, “the liturgical celebration becomes the continuing, complete and effective presentation of God’s word. The word of God, constantly proclaimed in the liturgy, is always a living and effective word through the power of the Holy Spirit. It expresses the Father’s love that never fails in its effectiveness towards us”.[184] The Church has always realized that in the liturgical action the word of God is accompanied by the interior working of the Holy Spirit who makes it effective in the hearts of the faithful. Thanks to the Paraclete, “the word of God becomes the foundation of the liturgical celebration, and the rule and support of all our life. The working of the same Holy Spirit … brings home to each person individually every-thing that in the proclamation of the word of God is spoken for the good of the whole gathering. In strengthening the unity of all, the Holy Spirit at the same time fosters a diversity of gifts and furthers their multiform operation”.[185]

I don’t want to use examples from the thread, but I feel like some people are diminishing the importance of the Liturgy of the Word in the Mass. I find it is a problem in more than just this thread. The Church has always held equal reverence between the Word and the Eucharist. Yes we worship Christ in the Eucharist more than we do Christ in the scriptures, but both are held with equal reverence in the Church. Both the Word and Eucharist are essential to the Mass, and I would say both equally essential.

 

[CreekCrawler]

It’s your use of the word “lost” in describing Catholics in the pews at Mass objectionable.

No one is “lost” until death.

There may be mistaken people. There may be people who have heterodox opinions(frankly like yourself IMHO).

There may even be outright informal heretics.

None of that means that they are “lost”. And I think that your use of that term is wrong.

I never used “lost” to describe Catholics. If I did I didnt mean to. True Catholics are not lost… but there are untold numbers of ppl who, if you asked them, would say they are Catholic who will never make it to heaven. Thats my opinion based on Jesus’ words.

 

[catholictiger]

because preaching, sermons, and homilies were brought up a lot in this thread.

here is Benedict on the importance of the homily

1. Each member of the People of God “has different duties and responsibilities with respect to the word of God. Accordingly, the faithful listen to God’s word and meditate on it, but those who have the office of teaching by virtue of sacred ordination or have been entrusted with exercising that ministry”, namely, bishops, priests and deacons, “expound the word of God”.[208] Hence we can understand the attention paid to the homily throughout the Synod. In the Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis, I pointed out that “given the importance of the word of God, the quality of homilies needs to be improved. The homily ‘is part of the liturgical action’ and is meant to foster a deeper understanding of the word of God, so that it can bear fruit in the lives of the faithful”.[209] The homily is a means of bringing the scriptural message to life in a way that helps the faithful to realize that God’s word is present and at work in their everyday lives. It should lead to an understanding of the mystery being celebrated, serve as a summons to mission, and prepare the assembly for the profession of faith, the universal prayer and the Eucharistic liturgy. Consequently, those who have been charged with preaching by virtue of a specific ministry ought to take this task to heart. Generic and abstract homilies which obscure the directness of God’s word should be avoided, as well as useless digressions which risk drawing greater attention to the preacher than to the heart of the Gospel message. The faithful should be able to perceive clearly that the preacher has a compelling desire to present Christ, who must stand at the centre of every homily. For this reason preachers need to be in close and constant contact with the sacred text;[210] they should prepare for the homily by meditation and prayer, so as to preach with conviction and passion. The synodal assembly asked that the following questions be kept in mind: “What are the Scriptures being proclaimed saying? What do they say to me personally? What should I say to the community in the light of its concrete situation?[211] The preacher “should be the first to hear the word of God which he proclaims”,[212] since, as Saint Augustine says: “He is undoubtedly barren who preaches outwardly the word of God without hearing it inwardly”.[213] The homily for Sundays and solemnities should be prepared carefully, without neglecting, whenever possible, to offer at weekday Masses cum populo brief and timely reflections which can help the faithful to welcome the word which was proclaimed and to let it bear fruit in their lives.

 

[YADA]

:banghead:
lol, thanks for the reply.

Its a good thing I am “practicing my faith” Perhaps I will get better with practice … I know I still have lots to learn … one day I hope to be as bright as you - then I won’t cause you such bodily harm with my suggestions …

Really? … you never respond to my earlier post and not to any thing within this post - except a recommendation to change the way you are looking at the issue and that makes you :banghead: …

 

[Amandil]

I never used “lost” to describe Catholics. If I did I didnt mean to. True Catholics are not lost… but there are untold numbers of ppl who, if you asked them, would say they are Catholic who will never make it to heaven. Thats my opinion based on Jesus’ words.

1. There’s no possibility that you can know that with any certainty.
2. Your opinion based on Jesus’s words is incorrect.

In Luke 13 Jesus’s disciples asked the question, “Lord will those who are saved be few?” He didn’t tell the disciples how many would be condemned. He didn’t say “many”, He didn’t say “untold numbers”-God is a lover, and for Him one person in hell is for Him too “many”.

What Jesus said was “strive to enter”. IOW, mind your own affairs, not others. Be more upset about your own sins instead of concerning yourself with other people’s salvation.

Romans 17:15-23

] I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.*
] Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.*
] So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.*
] For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.*
] For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.*
] Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.*
] So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.*
] For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self,*
] but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.*

My priest pointed me to this passage of Paul’s when I was having a difficult time with my sister whom I believed was living in a state of sin. I was trying to evangelize her and making a huge botch of it.

I was trying to control an outcome of which I had no right nor ability to control: her spiritual life.

I was committing the sin of pride, trying to play God to my sister. It doesn’t matter that my heart was in the right place, I wasn’t doing it for God (even though that’s what I was telling myself), I was doing it for me.

I would ask that you poo ray on what I’ve said.

Evangelizing is a good thing for those predisposed to God, and its up to us to discern who and how we are to evangelize. It helps when evangelizing that you are trying to form a relationship with people and not just simply preach at them.

As for Catholics who are not practicing, you have to do the messy business of approaching them where they are.

Above all I would still insist that you speak to your priest before you do anything.

 

[CreekCrawler]

Its a good thing I am “practicing my faith” Perhaps I will get better with practice … I know I still have lots to learn … one day I hope to be as bright as you - then I won’t cause you such bodily harm with my suggestions …

Really? … you never respond to my earlier post and not to any thing within this post - except a recommendation to change the way you are looking at the issue and that makes you :banghead: …

I think my frustration is understandable in light of the quote, when I had stated time after time that what I’m posting about has nothing to do with entertainment.
But that’s okay. The chances of me being brighter than you are slim by the way
Sorry I didnt respond to your earlier post… which one are you speaking of ?

 

[CreekCrawler]

1. There’s no possibility that you can know that with any certainty.
2. Your opinion based on Jesus’s words is incorrect.

In Luke 13 Jesus’s disciples asked the question, “Lord will those who are saved be few?” He didn’t tell the disciples how many would be condemned. He didn’t say “many”, He didn’t say “untold numbers”-God is a lover, and for Him one person in hell is for Him too “many”

Actually He does say “Many”…
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who enter through it. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and FEW there are that find it!

If Jesus says “few” will find life, then I think its safe to conclude that “many” will not make it to heaven. Sry, it’s just the way it is.

 

[YADA]

I think my frustration is understandable in light of the quote, when I had stated time after time that what I’m posting about has nothing to do with entertainment.
But that’s okay. The chances of me being brighter than you are slim by the way
Sorry I didnt respond to your earlier post… which one are you speaking of ?

See Post # 39 …

You are probably very bright …

I know you are not looking for entertainment - but delivery and attention getting properties are entertainment values and they do impact the one listening …

My caution to ignore the delivery for the content is valid … and the celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass in both parts - Liturgy of Word and Eucharist is vastly different in form then non-Catholic worship …

Also - it is valid to consider the number of Homilies that a priest delivers during the week - with the more limited delivery of sermons by their counterparts …

I also explained the difference in a homily and a sermon …

Catholics live their faith as I pointed out … we have been feeding, healing, educating and serving people for literally centuries -

 

[Amandil]

Matthew 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and FEW there are that find it!

If Jesus says “few” will find life, then I think its safe to conclude that “many” will not make it to heaven. Sry, it’s just the way it is.

Again, “few” and “many” are not quantitative. As I said, God is a lover, not a mathemetician. As a father and a husband even if one of my children are “lost” that is too “many”.

It seems rather that you’re reading your own ideas into the text.

My point still stands.

 

[CreekCrawler]

See Post # 39 …

You are probably very bright …

I know you are not looking for entertainment - but delivery and attention getting properties are entertainment values and they do impact the one listening …

My caution to ignore the delivery for the content is valid … and the celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass in both parts - Liturgy of Word and Eucharist is vastly different in form then non-Catholic worship …

Also - it is valid to consider the number of Homilies that a priest delivers during the week - with the more limited delivery of sermons by their counterparts …

I also explained the difference in a homily and a sermon …

Catholics live their faith as I pointed out … we have been feeding, healing, educating and serving people for literally centuries -

All very good points. The fact that Priests have to give at least a small homily every day and dont have all week to prepare is a great point.
Obviously I agree that Catholics live out their faith in serving the community.

Honestly though… I’m worried that most of these good people dont even know what the gospel is. When I went through RCIA it became very apparent that I knew more about the Catholic faith than many of the RCIA instructors who were cradle Catholics!

Maybe we can make some headway here by difining some common terms that may have different meanings with protestants and Catholics. What would you define as the gospel ?

 

[CreekCrawler]

Again, “few” and “many” are not quantitative. As I said, God is a lover, not a mathemetician. As a father and a husband even if one of my children are “lost” that is too “many”.

It seems rather that you’re reading your own ideas into the text.

My point still stands.

Of course the terms “few” and “many” are quantitative. They directly speak to the quantity of something… in this case, souls.
Jesus was EXTREMELY clear. Many find destruction, and few find life.
Anyway, this is off topic

 

[YADA]

…Maybe we can make some headway here by difining some common terms that may have different meanings with protestants and Catholics. What would you define as the gospel ?

Not sure we can just define and limit some things …

Gospel means “Good News” … the Good News of our Salvation, the Good News of the Everlasting Covenant of God’s love for us … its also related to the word evangelize

There are four “Gospels” Matthew, Mark, Luke and John … Catholics believe that the four Gospels are so important - we stand to hear them proclaimed at Mass when the Priest or Deacon proclaims the Good News of our Lord Jesus Christ

Catholic prayers are derived from Scriptures - and the Gospels are the source of many of our most beloved treasures …

St Francis said to P**reach the Good News always … use words if you must … **

You believe that the use of words - with passion and feeling - are necessary for Catholicism to be complete …

I say that Catholics “live” the Gospel … every day …

And we come together at the Sacrifice of the Mass - as a community of believers to worship our Lord - to hear his Word proclaimed and to receive Him in Body and Blood … not be instructed in the manner you think we are lacking … I do not argue that we need to hear and receive what you say - just that the Mass in not the venue for that message …

Lectures, presentations, bible study, catechesis, small faith sharing groups … those are areas and opportunities I attend to increase my knowledge and deepen my relationship with Christ - in addition to Mass

 

[Amandil]

CreekCrawler41349:

Of course the terms “few” and “many” are quantitative. They directly speak to the quantity of something… in this case, souls.
Jesus was EXTREMELY clear. Many find destruction, and few find life.
Anyway, this is off topic

No, the only thing that’s clear is that you are reading into the verse something that Jesus did not convey.

My point still stands.

 

[Lion_Heart]

No, the only thing that’s clear is that you are reading into the verse something that Jesus did not convey.

My point still stands.

Greetings in Christ Amandil,

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE By Peter Kreeft pages 230, 248, 249.
If someone doesn’t know: Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely read Catholic authors today.

“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives. The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come alive.” – John A. Harden, S.J.

Quote: “The mistakes of the Corinthians were mistakes of addition; the mistakes of the Galatians was subtraction. The Corinthians had polluted the gospel. The Galatians had abandoned it for another religion, “a different gospel.”

No mistake could be more serious. Yet as we shall see, this is the single most common mistake in the Church today.

Galatians, like Romans, is about SALVATION BY FAITH.
The Galatians so missed this CENTRAL POINT that Paul called their heresy of self-salvation “another gospel” that is another religion, NOT Christianity.

MANY RELIGIOUSLY UNEDUCATED CATHOLICS still believe this Galatian heresy today.

Not a small minority but a large majority of the Catholics today not only don’t know the basic doctrines of the Catholic theology anymore, they don’t even know how to get to Heaven!

Until this unbelievable failure is remedied, it is pointless to pray to God for ecumenical peace and reunion between Christian churches.

It is not clear that one who does not even know how to get to Heaven can accurately be called a Christian.

I am not suggesting, as many Protestant Fundamentalists do, that most Catholics are not saved.

But I am suggesting that perhaps most will be saved as good pagans, as “anonymous Christians” rather than as Catholic Christians.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

THE CATHOLIC ENCYLOPEDIA teaches the same thing as Peter Kreeft. Not exactly in the same diplomatic way.

Quote: “Will the majority of the human race be saved or will they be damned?
Will one-half be damned the other half saved?

In this question the opinion of the rigorists is opposed to the milder view of the optimists. Pointing to several texts of the Bible (Matthew 7:14; 22:14) and to sayings of great spiritual doctors, the rigorists defend as probable the thesis that not only most Christians but also most Catholics are doomed to eternal damnation.” End quote.

With love in Christ,
LH.

 

[Dorothy]

Sadly, no. Many protestants don’t follow Christ. They follow a caricature of Christ; an idol made after their own image and likeness, not the true Christ.

I know many Protestants that follow Christ better than me. I am inspired by them, and long to see them in the fullness of the Body of Christ, where all truth is! (The Catholic Church).

 

[Cricket2]

I, like most people, enjoy listening to someone who is a gifted speaker. However, I am much more interested in what they are saying and if what they say is the truth. Too many people, of all Faiths, get caught up with the exterior presentation and emotional feeling a speaker might present his/her comments with. In the process they can be easily deceived and fall for out right lies.

I would rather have the truth spoken, stuttering and blundering included, than be lied too. It might take a little extra attention and focus, but then that may be just what is needed. We need the truth, not entertainment.

 

[CreekCrawler]

I, like most people, enjoy listening to someone who is a gifted speaker. However, I am much more interested in what they are saying and if what they say is the truth. Too many people, of all Faiths, get caught up with the exterior presentation and emotional feeling a speaker might present his/her comments with. In the process they can be easily deceived and fall for out right lies.

I would rather have the truth spoken, stuttering and blundering included, than be lied too. It might take a little extra attention and focus, but then that may be just what is needed. We need the truth, not entertainment.

Good points that I agree with, yet I hope that they are not pointed at the original post as ( yet again ) it had nothing to do with a desire to be entertained, but rather a desire to hear the gospel from the pulpit… not an essay on the death penalty etc.

When I say “hear the gospel”, I’m not talking about hearing “readings from he gospels”. I’m talking about hearing the priest laying out the fact of our sinfulness and need of the Savior. Our need to lay down our lives and follow Him… to not be lukewarm saying “Lord, Lord” only to be rejected by Him on the day of Judgement saying “I never knew you”.
This message of what Christ did for us and the necessity to follow Him in every aspect of our lives needs to be driven home frequently from the pulpit… rather than almost never.

Of course, this may not be the case in many Parishes… just my experience.

 

[Amandil]

Greetings in Christ Amandil,

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE By Peter Kreeft pages 230, 248, 249.
If someone doesn’t know: Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely read Catholic authors today.

“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives. The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come alive.” – John A. Harden, S.J.

Quote: “The mistakes of the Corinthians were mistakes of addition; the mistakes of the Galatians was subtraction. The Corinthians had polluted the gospel. The Galatians had abandoned it for another religion, “a different gospel.”

No mistake could be more serious. Yet as we shall see, this is the single most common mistake in the Church today.

Galatians, like Romans, is about SALVATION BY FAITH.
The Galatians so missed this CENTRAL POINT that Paul called their heresy of self-salvation “another gospel” that is another religion, NOT Christianity.

MANY RELIGIOUSLY UNEDUCATED CATHOLICS still believe this Galatian heresy today.

Not a small minority but a large majority of the Catholics today not only don’t know the basic doctrines of the Catholic theology anymore, they don’t even know how to get to Heaven!

Until this unbelievable failure is remedied, it is pointless to pray to God for ecumenical peace and reunion between Christian churches.

It is not clear that one who does not even know how to get to Heaven can accurately be called a Christian.

I am not suggesting, as many Protestant Fundamentalists do, that most Catholics are not saved.

But I am suggesting that perhaps most will be saved as good pagans, as “anonymous Christians” rather than as Catholic Christians.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

THE CATHOLIC ENCYLOPEDIA teaches the same thing as Peter Kreeft. Not exactly in the same diplomatic way.

Quote: “Will the majority of the human race be saved or will they be damned?
Will one-half be damned the other half saved?

In this question the opinion of the rigorists is opposed to the milder view of the optimists. Pointing to several texts of the Bible (Matthew 7:14; 22:14) and to sayings of great spiritual doctors, the rigorists defend as probable the thesis that not only most Christians but also most Catholics are doomed to eternal damnation.” End quote.

With love in Christ,
LH.

My point still stands.

Look, nobody here can possibly quantify exactly how many people are meant by “many” and how many people are meant by “few”.

Any statement which claims that they can is not only begging the question, but they are trying to play God.

How many people, whoever they may be, who wind up in heaven or hell is God’s business not ours.

When Christ was ask the question he never responded with heavenly tallies, what He said was “strive to enter the narrow door.”(Meaning mind your own business).

Planting seeds is all that we can do. Its God that causes the growth. Its that simple.

 

[TCEL]

Good points that I agree with, yet I hope that they are not pointed at the original post as ( yet again ) it had nothing to do with a desire to be entertained, but rather a desire to hear the gospel from the pulpit… not an essay on the death penalty etc.

When I say “hear the gospel”, I’m not talking about hearing “readings from he gospels”. I’m talking about hearing the priest laying out the fact of our sinfulness and need of the Savior. Our need to lay down our lives and follow Him… to not be lukewarm saying “Lord, Lord” only to be rejected by Him on the day of Judgement saying “I never knew you”.
This message of what Christ did for us and the necessity to follow Him in every aspect of our lives needs to be driven home frequently from the pulpit… rather than almost never.

Of course, this may not be the case in many Parishes… just my experience.

It sounds like you are frustrated that we aren’t hearing more calls to repentance? Would that be fair to say?

We are multi-dimensional beings who need many things. I think the following is a nice summary from an article describing Pope Francis’ call to evangelization. You’re right that we have to start with Christ. (And we have the Eucharist!) That does not mean excluding everything else. The more I learn about the Church, the more I realize that it really does walk a “middle-road,” though that’s not the best analogy. It’s important to take in more than one aspect.

I believe both Blessed JPII and the Pope Emeritus thought that evangelization must be grounded more in the Eucharist.

At the same time, we should not think that such an invitation requires that we be silent about fundamental truths of the natural moral law, as if these matters were somehow peripheral to the message of the Gospel. Rather, the proclamation of the truth of the moral law is always an essential dimension of the proclamation of the Gospel, for it is only in light of the truth of the moral law, written on every human heart, that we can recognize our need to repent from sin and accept the mercy of God offered to us in Jesus Christ. It is for this reason that Our Lord begins His own proclamation of the Kingdom of God with the challenge to “Repent and believe in the Gospel” (Mk 1:15). The call to repentance involves both the reminder of our sinfulness and failure to keep God’s law and, at the same time, the offer of God’s forgiveness. Thus, we see the Apostles, in their preaching after Pentecost, both admonishing their hearers for their sins, and inviting them to accept the mercy that God wishes to offer them through the Risen Christ (Acts 2: 38-40; 3:14-20). St Paul, in his Letter to the Romans, begins his comprehensive presentation of the Gospel precisely by reminding us of the natural moral law, written on every human heart, which reveals to us our sinfulness and our need for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (cf. Rom 1-3). American Cardinal on the message of this Pontificate The Pope’s radical call to the new evangelization

 

[CreekCrawler]

My point still stands.

Look, nobody here can possibly quantify exactly how many people are meant by “many” and how many people are meant by “few”.

Any statement which claims that they can is not only begging the question, but they are trying to play God.

How many people, whoever they may be, who wind up in heaven or hell is God’s business not ours.

When Christ was ask the question he never responded with heavenly tallies, what He said was “strive to enter the narrow door.”(Meaning mind your own business).

Planting seeds is all that we can do. Its God that causes the growth. Its that simple.

No, he actually told us that many would be damned and that few would find life. Matt 7:13-14 ( pretty straight forward )
Again, nobody is trying to “put a number” on it. That’s beside the point. I mean, how are we to evangelize by focusing on ourselves and “minding our own business” as you say ? I think the far more prudent thing to do is to assume that most people need to hear the gospel message,( and see it lived out ) rather than assume most people will be in heaven anyway. The implications of that type of thinking will be absolutely tragic in the end.