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CreekCrawler
Guest
I’m not using it to describe Catholics in the pews… I’m using it to describe the lost in the pews. ( and elsewhere )
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the LOST.” - Jesus
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Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the LOST.” - Jesus
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Amandil
Guest
Well, being that I never said that and you seem to be putting words in my mouth. Again I suggest that you go back and read the Catechism.
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CreekCrawler
Guest
I wish you would have read the OP a little better friend. I never said or insinuated any of the above. And, in my many years of various protestant church going, never have I heard the CC “bashed”. That’s just my personal experience.
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gmanlq
Guest
I don’t go to Mass for the homily or the music and to go for such trivial things is foolish IMO. I go for the Eucharist. Perhaps you are looking and finding importance in the wrong part of the Mass. There are plenty of passionate priest and I’ve heard several. There is great music to be found as well in the Catholic Church. The Mass is not intended to entertain you but rather to draw you into the sacred mystery of how Jesus’ could give himself to us in the Eucharist as our spiritual food. The nice homilies and good music are great to hear but I don’t plan my attendance on who the priest is or the type of music. One could do so if one wanted. There are lots of Catholic Church’s and each has its own culture and feel to it.I find myself in a little bit of a dilemma… You see, I am a recent convert from Protestantism. I converted and was baptized and confirmed last may. So I freely admit that my views in this post could easily be skewed by the simple fact that I don’t have much experience in the CC.
First of all, I love the Catholic Church. It is absolutely beautiful, the liturgy is amazing. I spent the time in mass yesterday finding myself wiping tears from my eyes, simply struck by the presence of God and the beauty of The Church, ( along with the reality of my own sin and feeling unworthy yet grateful to be there. )
Yet, I can’t help but feel something is missing… Something that belongs and yet isn’t there. At least in the few parishes that I frequent. Yet, from listening to Catholic radio ( XM and AM ) I feel like it must be Church wide. What is it ? Passionate preaching of the gospel… Where is it ? Every single time I go to Mass, regardless of the parish, when it comes time for the homily, the priest pulls out his pre-written sermon and reads word for word… This week it was an essay on why the death penalty is wrong. Seriously ? How DRY !!!
Now obviously Protestantism is missing its share of truth… Or I wouldn’t have left it. But let me tell you one thing many of them get right: their passionate preaching of the gospel ( as they see it ) and their love for the lost, which is why they just can’t stop preaching it.
I just don’t get it. There is a certain percentage of people occupying those parish pews that are lost ! Some of which are cradle “Catholics” ! And we are listening to a homily on political issues ? Who cares ?!
I feel the same way EVERY time I turn on Catholic radio, with the exception to catholic answers. If I turn on the radio, I promise you there is an 80-90 percent chance they are talking about either abortion, contraception or marriage. All day every day… All while countless ppl within the listening area are dying without knowing our Lord. It just drives me nuts !
When I listen to Protestant pastors on YouTube, such as Francis Chan, etc. it is like rain in the desert… Absolutely refreshing! Just listen to one of his sermons and see if you disagree… Try Lukewarm and loving it… m.youtube.com/watch?v=z227Trx0r3w
Now obviously me and these ppl would disagree on some theological points, but they love God in an intense way, and they are our brothers and sisters in Christ… And quite frankly most Catholics could learn something from them.
Anyway, I guess I’m just ranting. I could go on and on about this… But for now I’ll wait for some responses.
Take it easy on me
Edited to remove the word " c-r-a-p ", as it showed up as **** and looked bad.
God bless,
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Amandil
Guest
Its also a trap of the devils to get people to be hung up on rhetorical or musical styles rather than the content. To make people “connoisseurs” of churches rather than students.
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CreekCrawler
Guest
Unbelievable. Why do you guys waste time posting answers to arguments or points that haven’t even been made ? Everyone on here, including me agrees with every thing you two just said…
Why do you confuse preaching the gospel with entertainment ? Who cares about entertainment ?
I’m concerned about souls, Not being entertained ! What part of that is difficult for you ?
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Kamaduck
Guest
Hi, CreekCrawler. I converted almost three years ago from Lutheranism, and I still have to listen to Lutheran sermons on a regular basis, so I can kind of see what you’re saying. But at the same time, I don’t agree. I don’t know what form of Protestantism you converted from, so this may not be applicable, but I can tell you about my experience with “passionate preaching of the gospel” and why I think that approach isn’t incredibly constructive.
When I was attending an Evangelical school, the faculty loved giving us impassioned speeches about how we were sinners who ought to do so much better. There was a sense that if you weren’t “on fire”, you had a problem. In fact, you might not even be saved. Emotions ruled the day, sadness was usually unacceptable, and I think the sermons were an extension of that. Actual theology was kind of hazy, and I was never totally clear on what they stood for or why. I didn’t like that approach very much.
Sundays were better. I spent a lot of years going to a church where the pastor would give collections of thoughts on the readings, maybe talk about the greek or hebrew, and tie it into a nice little lesson about lying or pride or giving to the poor. I liked it. He was knowledgeable and spoke on a wide variety of topics. Unfortunately, I soon learned that he was doing it “wrong”- in Lutheranism, every sermon is supposed to follow a specific pattern. You talk about the “law”, and then you talk about the “gospel”.
The year before I began RCIA (they sent me through RCIA as a kid because of reasons), I went to a church that did things “right”. The pastor yelled dramatically and emphatically and always, always, always talked about law and gospel. Twice a week, for a whole year, I listened to this man spend twenty minutes bringing the scripture of the day around to how we’re all horrible, wretched, miserable, filthy worms that deserve to be cast into hell for breaking the law. It didn’t matter if the reading was literally “go give money to the poor”- the entire sermon would be about how we are wretched sinful beggars and God ought to hate us. And then, we had the obligatory description of the crucifixion, about five minutes of “but Christ died for you anyway”, and then maybe a couple lines thrown out about not sinning or helping the poor or something. Maybe.
Listening to that really takes its toll. Sooner or later you realize that they’re ignoring the actual readings in favor of preaching the same sermon every week. You realize that few apply this stuff- they know all the answers in religion class, but if you talk about love, they scoff. I’m not saying the church didn’t have its good points, but as a 13-year-old kid, I knew that the pastor’s number one job was to remind me that I was a pitiful, sinful, willfully evil pile of filthy rags.
That I was worthless.
I first came to Catholicism because they talked about things that were interesting. I came because they did want to discuss things like the death penalty. There was something to sink your teeth into; there were answers when you asked a question. There were people discussing every minute facet of the faith, from scripture readings to moral theology to the everyday business of being a Christian. I stayed because they helped me realize that I’m not worthless. Nobody is. We’re made in the image of God, and we’re precious.
The year after I became Catholic, I was invited to a Catholic retreat. The main thing I remember is that at one point they showed us a music video from Tenth Avenue North. The song they sang (“You Are More”) doesn’t differ significantly from the Lutheran or Catholic view of salvation. Basically, it was the same thing I’d heard for years- we are sinners, but Christ has ransomed us and made us “more”.
For some reason, I found myself in awe that you guys- that we- actually believe this. That each person, no matter how wretched or helpless or small, is worth fighting for. I knew that it was true. I knew it because every moment of my experience as a Catholic has been filled with Christians insisting that we remember the dignity of all humans. That we fight for them. That we love them. Only here do I hear the word “soul” and think of a beautiful, individual being created in God’s image, a being that must be protected at all costs (whatever form that protection may take). My Catholic friends don’t know much about the Bible in many cases, and sometimes that really bothers me. But they do have love and respect for the human person, and if they’re going to major on a certain part of the faith, I’m glad they’ve got that part down.
So. That was way more long and emotional than I intended it to be. But what I’m trying to say is, the concern for the death penalty, or abortion, or porn use, or the poor, is really important to me. The arguments convinced me, yes. But it’s the concern for the dignity of the human person that lets me know, more than anything, that I’m in the right place. I see it in our arguments here, even when they get heated. I see it in the way we take the time to individually address the doubts of each individual, and tell them that they can lose their sense of being “on fire”, but it doesn’t mean God has abandoned them. I see it in the way that our religious orders reach out, in the way we welcome converts, in the way we collect food. It’s a complete faith: if you need arguments, they are here; if you need answers, they are here; if you need practical help, it is here; if you need to feel God through the sacraments, He is here. But everywhere, there is concern for the human person. There is love. Catholics preach the gospel with their lives, with their ministries, out of love for their brothers and sisters. And that tells me, more than any passionate sermon ever could, that I am home. I pray that my life can be a part of that- that I can “preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.”
When I was attending an Evangelical school, the faculty loved giving us impassioned speeches about how we were sinners who ought to do so much better. There was a sense that if you weren’t “on fire”, you had a problem. In fact, you might not even be saved. Emotions ruled the day, sadness was usually unacceptable, and I think the sermons were an extension of that. Actual theology was kind of hazy, and I was never totally clear on what they stood for or why. I didn’t like that approach very much.
Sundays were better. I spent a lot of years going to a church where the pastor would give collections of thoughts on the readings, maybe talk about the greek or hebrew, and tie it into a nice little lesson about lying or pride or giving to the poor. I liked it. He was knowledgeable and spoke on a wide variety of topics. Unfortunately, I soon learned that he was doing it “wrong”- in Lutheranism, every sermon is supposed to follow a specific pattern. You talk about the “law”, and then you talk about the “gospel”.
The year before I began RCIA (they sent me through RCIA as a kid because of reasons), I went to a church that did things “right”. The pastor yelled dramatically and emphatically and always, always, always talked about law and gospel. Twice a week, for a whole year, I listened to this man spend twenty minutes bringing the scripture of the day around to how we’re all horrible, wretched, miserable, filthy worms that deserve to be cast into hell for breaking the law. It didn’t matter if the reading was literally “go give money to the poor”- the entire sermon would be about how we are wretched sinful beggars and God ought to hate us. And then, we had the obligatory description of the crucifixion, about five minutes of “but Christ died for you anyway”, and then maybe a couple lines thrown out about not sinning or helping the poor or something. Maybe.
Listening to that really takes its toll. Sooner or later you realize that they’re ignoring the actual readings in favor of preaching the same sermon every week. You realize that few apply this stuff- they know all the answers in religion class, but if you talk about love, they scoff. I’m not saying the church didn’t have its good points, but as a 13-year-old kid, I knew that the pastor’s number one job was to remind me that I was a pitiful, sinful, willfully evil pile of filthy rags.
That I was worthless.
I first came to Catholicism because they talked about things that were interesting. I came because they did want to discuss things like the death penalty. There was something to sink your teeth into; there were answers when you asked a question. There were people discussing every minute facet of the faith, from scripture readings to moral theology to the everyday business of being a Christian. I stayed because they helped me realize that I’m not worthless. Nobody is. We’re made in the image of God, and we’re precious.
The year after I became Catholic, I was invited to a Catholic retreat. The main thing I remember is that at one point they showed us a music video from Tenth Avenue North. The song they sang (“You Are More”) doesn’t differ significantly from the Lutheran or Catholic view of salvation. Basically, it was the same thing I’d heard for years- we are sinners, but Christ has ransomed us and made us “more”.
For some reason, I found myself in awe that you guys- that we- actually believe this. That each person, no matter how wretched or helpless or small, is worth fighting for. I knew that it was true. I knew it because every moment of my experience as a Catholic has been filled with Christians insisting that we remember the dignity of all humans. That we fight for them. That we love them. Only here do I hear the word “soul” and think of a beautiful, individual being created in God’s image, a being that must be protected at all costs (whatever form that protection may take). My Catholic friends don’t know much about the Bible in many cases, and sometimes that really bothers me. But they do have love and respect for the human person, and if they’re going to major on a certain part of the faith, I’m glad they’ve got that part down.
So. That was way more long and emotional than I intended it to be. But what I’m trying to say is, the concern for the death penalty, or abortion, or porn use, or the poor, is really important to me. The arguments convinced me, yes. But it’s the concern for the dignity of the human person that lets me know, more than anything, that I’m in the right place. I see it in our arguments here, even when they get heated. I see it in the way we take the time to individually address the doubts of each individual, and tell them that they can lose their sense of being “on fire”, but it doesn’t mean God has abandoned them. I see it in the way that our religious orders reach out, in the way we welcome converts, in the way we collect food. It’s a complete faith: if you need arguments, they are here; if you need answers, they are here; if you need practical help, it is here; if you need to feel God through the sacraments, He is here. But everywhere, there is concern for the human person. There is love. Catholics preach the gospel with their lives, with their ministries, out of love for their brothers and sisters. And that tells me, more than any passionate sermon ever could, that I am home. I pray that my life can be a part of that- that I can “preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.”
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Amandil
Guest
catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-%E2%80%9Cproselytism%E2%80%9D
Creek, I highly recommend you read the above article.
Creek, I highly recommend you read the above article.
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CreekCrawler
Guest
While I agree with most of this, the last phrase is like finger nails on a chalk board. It should simply be “Preach the gospel… and live it!”“preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.”
You can be the most caring, loving person in the world to me… but if you do not tell me about the gospel I could easily assume you are a Buddhist, Muslim or anything at all. And what good would that do for the poor souls that witness it ?
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fred_conty
Guest
Kamaduck,
That rates an A+…very nicely written. The Holy Spirit gave you the right words.
May God bless and keep you.
That rates an A+…very nicely written. The Holy Spirit gave you the right words.
May God bless and keep you.
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fred_conty
Guest
I believe this is true. If we have the opportunity or it comes up.
But if someone is lit up by your example, I would think they would make inquiries to find out what you believe in, from others or from you.
May God our Father give you grace and peace.
K
Kamaduck
Guest
Hmm. You may be right. Maybe the gospel is something that can’t be conveyed without words, but also something that’s hollow without actions. In Catholicism, I see a lot of both, whereas in various Protestant sects I see a lot of one or the other.
I don’t think that the form of words we need would look much like your “passionate preaching of the gospel”, though. I think it’s more like what we do on these forums. It’s explaining and defending and discussing, not so much whipping people’s spirits up into a frenzy or crying out for them to return to God. Maybe that’s what Pope Francis was saying when he warned against proselytizing- we shouldn’t manipulate or goad people into becoming converts. We should show genuine concern for their needs and help them with their difficulties (actions), and then meet them where they’re at and explain the faith to them (words). But at no point do I see dramatic speeches as a necessity. They may be helpful for some people, but they’re probably not as central as some Protestants seem to think they are.
Does that make sense?
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CreekCrawler
Guest
Thanks. Not sure why you wanted me to read that but… here is the summary of the Article:
“proselytization” refers to using inappropriate tactics to get someone to convert, rather than allowing them to make a free choice for Christ." “The inappropriate tactics can take a number of forms, including deception, coercion, emotional manipulation, threats, and even bribery.”
Jimmy Akin ends with " We should, in his view, not try to manipulate others into converting. We should evangelize by witnessing to the transforming love of Jesus Christ, both by word and deed, and then let them make a free choice—leaving the results up to God."
Amen
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Kamaduck
Guest
You think so? I’m glad He’s found a use for me!
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CreekCrawler
Guest
Perfect sense. And I agree ( somewhat )… But I don’t understand why having a passion for preaching the gospel is equated to “dramatic speech” etc. Throughout this thread ppl have misunderstood me to mean that I want “entertainment” or some wild animated preaching, which has absolutely nothing to do with being passionate about conveying the gospel to the lost.
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Kamaduck
Guest
They’re not really “entertainment”- twenty minutes of hearing about how we’re all pitiful worms isn’t really my idea of being entertained!
It’s a bit like calling The Passion of the Christ “entertainment”. You don’t watch it to have fun, you watch it to understand a little bit of what Jesus went through. To remind yourself. But watching The Passion of the Christ every Sunday would get very depressing very fast, giving you a lot of intense emotions and no easy release. It also wouldn’t leave much time to discuss other things- like how we’re going to serve people in the here and now.
I do like dramatic speeches, especially when done well. I think they’re a very flimsy thing to build a faith on, though. If I built my faith on emotions I got from sermons, I’d be switching churches a lot- which is something a lot of Protestants do, in my experience.
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CreekCrawler
Guest
On the first part, I’m afraid you were just in in a horrible church / denomination
That was never my experience.On the second part, I agree… and again, dramatic, emotional speeches has nothing to do with my point.
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Kamaduck
Guest
Haha, well. They weren’t all bad. Just really hardcore about the idea that we are all beggars. But yes, I’m glad to spend Sundays elsewhere now.On the first part, I’m afraid you were just in in a horrible church / denomination
On the second part, I agree… and again, dramatic, emotional speeches has nothing to do with my point.
So what was your point, then, if passionate preaching =/= emotional speeches? I’m really curious what you’re looking for. Is it that we should be talking about the core gospel every Sunday, and not “political” things like the death penalty?
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CreekCrawler
Guest
Not every Sunday, but more than never…Haha, well. They weren’t all bad. Just really hardcore about the idea that we are all beggars. But yes, I’m glad to spend Sundays elsewhere now.
So what was your point, then, if passionate preaching =/= emotional speeches? I’m really curious what you’re looking for. Is it that we should be talking about the core gospel every Sunday, and not “political” things like the death penalty?
Obviously this will vary from Parish to Parish… there are plenty of priests out there that do more than there share in this area. Maybe just not around here…
Honestly, when I sit in the pew and look around at Mass I wonder how many really know the gospel… It really bugs me. I mean the gospel is NEVER conveyed in plain English at Mass. Yes, I know that Mass is a representation of the gospel message… but in a mysterious way. A way that would be completely lost on the “lost” so to speak.
If I was the Priest, at least every once in a while I would simply spell out the gospel for everyone, in plain English.
I know that many Catholics are baptized as infants, confirmed etc later, but never really evangelized… or even Catechized.
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Kamaduck
Guest
I have rather been missing the point, haven’t I.
Spelling out the gospel could be good. But on the other hand, I think there is the idea that the Church is not full of “lost” people. We don’t exactly have the same kind of hardline division between saved and unsaved in Catholicism, because anybody can fall into mortal sin and need to be brought back. But on the other hand, it’s assumed that all of the people in the pews, receiving communion, are the ones who already know the gospel. Ideally, they would be more involved with their parishes and faith lives than just going to mass on Sundays, but of course that isn’t always the case. In theory, most of the evangelization takes place outside the actual church building.
I think they do generally spell out the gospel during Easter and Christmas, though, don’t they? I’m pretty sure the priest does in my parish. That’s a decent amount of exposure, plus saying the Nicene Creed every week, which does pretty much spell out the key points. I suppose a few more reviews per year wouldn’t hurt, but I wouldn’t think the gospel would never be mentioned. It’d be pretty odd if that is indeed the case in your parish.
Doing an in-depth homily review, say, every month, would significantly cut into time spent discussing how to live the faith. So it is a balance.
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