What Catholics Have To Believe

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WBB,

The Catholic doctrines that are illoigical and that I have dispensed with are the following:

Praying to the Virgin Mary and the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to statues of the Virgin Mary and the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to pictures of the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to the Crucifix
Purgatory(Which would be giving someone a second chance at salvation and anybody knows that when someone is given a second chance they are going to blow the first chance. There is only one chance at salvation and that is in this life. Also Purgatory negates Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross)
Belief that the Mass is a sacrifice
Belief that Baptism has something to do with salvation(Infant Baptism is just a dedication of infants to Christ and an initiation ceremony into the Church)
Belief that the Sacraments have something to do with salvation(The Sacraments are just Church ceremonies dealing with various stages in life. I still belileve that there are 7 Sacraments)
Transubstantiation(The Lutheran belief of Consubstantiation is more biblical than Transubstantiation is. Consubstantiation means that Christ is present IN, WITH AND UNDER the bread and wine but the bread and wine are still bread and wine and they have not been changed into the actual body and blood of Christ)
Individual Confession(Confession of sins is to be directly to Christ only. I do not go to individual Confession and I never will again. I only go to Communal Reconciliation Service near Easter and near Christmas where we go to church and confess our sins directly to Christ and then go up to the altar where the Priest lays hands on and gives a blessing)
Belief that the Pope is infallible(I still believe that Saint Peter was the First Pope)
Belief that Confirmation has something to do with salvation(I still belileve that Confirmation is the impartation of the Holy Spirit on the Confirmation candidate)
Belief that the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick has something to do with salvation(It is only for anointing the sick with oil for healing)

There is only one way to get saved and that is to receive Christ as Savior.
 
John Mazar:
WBB,

The Catholic doctrines that are illoigical and that I have dispensed with are the following:

Praying to the Virgin Mary and the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to statues of the Virgin Mary and the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to pictures of the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to the Crucifix
Purgatory(Which would be giving someone a second chance at salvation and anybody knows that when someone is given a second chance they are going to blow the first chance. There is only one chance at salvation and that is in this life. Also Purgatory negates Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross)
Belief that the Mass is a sacrifice
Belief that Baptism has something to do with salvation(Infant Baptism is just a dedication of infants to Christ and an initiation ceremony into the Church)
Belief that the Sacraments have something to do with salvation(The Sacraments are just Church ceremonies dealing with various stages in life. I still belileve that there are 7 Sacraments)
Transubstantiation(The Lutheran belief of Consubstantiation is more biblical than Transubstantiation is. Consubstantiation means that Christ is present IN, WITH AND UNDER the bread and wine but the bread and wine are still bread and wine and they have not been changed into the actual body and blood of Christ)
Individual Confession(Confession of sins is to be directly to Christ only. I do not go to individual Confession and I never will again. I only go to Communal Reconciliation Service near Easter and near Christmas where we go to church and confess our sins directly to Christ and then go up to the altar where the Priest lays hands on and gives a blessing)
Belief that the Pope is infallible(I still believe that Saint Peter was the First Pope)
Belief that Confirmation has something to do with salvation(I still belileve that Confirmation is the impartation of the Holy Spirit on the Confirmation candidate)
Belief that the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick has something to do with salvation(It is only for anointing the sick with oil for healing)

There is only one way to get saved and that is to receive Christ as Savior.
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And that is exactly what we do, and have been doing for 2000 years before your church of “Bob” existed. I think we have a Jack Chick graduate here.
 
John Mazar:
Purgatory(Which would be giving someone a second chance at salvation and anybody knows that when someone is given a second chance they are going to blow the first chance. There is only one chance at salvation and that is in this life. Also Purgatory negates Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross)
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Then you misunderstand purgatory as it is not a place of second chances. Purgatory (as the name implies) is a place of purification (or purging) of our tendancies to sin.
 
John Mazar:
Individual Confession(Confession of sins is to be directly to Christ only. I do not go to individual Confession and I never will again.
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My friend, you are making a grave mistake here, and I pray that you do NOT receive Holy Communion.

Not that this matters to you, but Christ told the apostles to forgive sins, “whos sins you forgive will be forgiven them, and whos sins you retain will be retained.”

Also, I am curious as to why you associate yourself as a Catholic, yet you openly deny the majority of Catholic Truth?

(Not intended soley as a “pot-shot” but didn’t you say something about using logic?)
 
John,

If you have rejected those teachings, why don’t you just edit your profile and call yourself an evangelical or a non-denominational, because those things you have listed are essentially what they have rejected as well. That just seems logical to me.

But I will not try to convert you, as it is apparent you are in no frame of mind to consider anyone else’s viewpoint other than your own, except maybe that of a Jack Chick or another anti-Catholic preacher/apologist.

I will second E.E.N.S.'s prayer that you would not recieve Holy Communion.

P.S. If the spirit ever moves you, feel free to check out the three links below, they address most if not all of your listed objections.
 
john mazar

Being brilliant is no guarantee of being in possession of the truth.

Please remind yourself of the great Albert Einstein, who had to have the basics of the Big Bang theory explained to him by a Jesuit priest-mathematician, George LeMaitre, and further demonstrated by Edward Hubble, because he did not think the theory was “logical.”
 
Semper Fi:
Jesus preached to spirits which were in “prison”…
1 Peter 3:19
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That is an interesting reading of that particular verse. The usual reading of it in Protestant churches is that it refers to Christ entering Hell and preaching there, in the “Harrowing of Hell”.
 
John Mazar:
I am a Catholic and I do not believe all Catholic doctrine and one of the doctrines that I have dispensed with is Purgatory because I am a college graduate who thinks logically and analytically. And thus I am able to ascertain which doctrines are logical and should be adhered to and which doctrines are illogical and should be dispensed with.

Any Catholic who is a college graduate and who thinks logically and analytically should do what I do and ascertain for themselves which doctrines are logical and should be adhered to and which doctrines are illogical and should be dispensed with. Only someone who is not well educated would follow the illogical doctrines.
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Adam and Eve felt the same way. I applaud your vivid illistration of their error so that we may all learn from it. However, repeating it is not recommended.

I would also submit that it is not logical to assume that a college degree automatically bestows on one the ability to infallibly use logic to reach the truth.
 
John Mazar:
WBB,

The Catholic doctrines that are illoigical and that I have dispensed with are the following:

Praying to the Virgin Mary and the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to statues of the Virgin Mary and the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to pictures of the Saints
Praying to and bowing down to the Crucifix
Purgatory(Which would be giving someone a second chance at salvation and anybody knows that when someone is given a second chance they are going to blow the first chance. There is only one chance at salvation and that is in this life. Also Purgatory negates Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross)
Belief that the Mass is a sacrifice
Belief that Baptism has something to do with salvation(Infant Baptism is just a dedication of infants to Christ and an initiation ceremony into the Church)
Belief that the Sacraments have something to do with salvation(The Sacraments are just Church ceremonies dealing with various stages in life. I still belileve that there are 7 Sacraments)
Transubstantiation(The Lutheran belief of Consubstantiation is more biblical than Transubstantiation is. Consubstantiation means that Christ is present IN, WITH AND UNDER the bread and wine but the bread and wine are still bread and wine and they have not been changed into the actual body and blood of Christ)
Individual Confession(Confession of sins is to be directly to Christ only. I do not go to individual Confession and I never will again. I only go to Communal Reconciliation Service near Easter and near Christmas where we go to church and confess our sins directly to Christ and then go up to the altar where the Priest lays hands on and gives a blessing)
Belief that the Pope is infallible(I still believe that Saint Peter was the First Pope)
Belief that Confirmation has something to do with salvation(I still belileve that Confirmation is the impartation of the Holy Spirit on the Confirmation candidate)
Belief that the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick has something to do with salvation(It is only for anointing the sick with oil for healing)

There is only one way to get saved and that is to receive Christ as Savior.
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All of these doctrines are firmly rooted in reason and backed by 2000 years of tradition and has been defended against all comers by the likes of the Early Church Fathers and the Doctors of the Church.

Is it not at least possible given this that your reasoning leading you away from these teachings is what is flawed? Or do you claim to have perfect reasoning?

However, feel free to show logically how any one of these doctrines you have tossed away is flawed.
 
E.E.N.S. And Catholic29,

I am remaining Catholic because I am more comfortable with the liturgical worship in the Catholic Church then the non liturgical worship in the Non Denominational and other Fundamentalist Churches. Another reason that I am remaining Catholic is because I like to go to Saturday Vigil Mass instead of Sunday Morning Mass so that I can do other things on Sunday like laying around the house all Sunday morning until going out to lunch and shop. Non Denominational and other Fundamentalist Churches do not have Saturday Vigil Services. I have a combination of Catholic, Lutheran and Fundamentalist beliefs.
 
Gilbert Keith:
Recently a protestant asked me if, in becoming a Catholic, he would have to believe in purgatory.

. . .

Is there an official prouncement on purgatory, other than that found in the Catechism, that requires all Catholics to believe in it?
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“other than that found in the Catechism?” Isn’t the Catechism good enough?

Just tell your friend that it’s OK. We’re glad he’s interested in the Church and the Pope will be glad to adjust the dogma on Purgatory for him. We want him to be comfortable. :rotfl:

Sorry. I’m bad today. As a convert, one of the things I find compelling about the Catholic Church is that it doesn’t mess around with dogma. “Take it or leave it. We’ll be here when you come around. Leave the light on for ya.”

Actually, for Protestants, Purgatory is one of the more accessible dogmas if you walk into it step-by-step through Scripture. It would have saved me 15 years on the conversion trail if somebody had done that for me.
 
From the 25th Session of the Council of Trent

DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY.Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service).
 
John Mazar:
Only someone who is not well educated would follow the illogical doctrines.
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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Tell that to the 33 Doctors of the Church, to John Henry Newman, GK Chesterton, Hillaire Belloc, Scott Hahn . . . Get a grip, John Mazar. And while you’re at it, sue the school where you got your famous “college education” for malpractice.
 
Come to think of it, if John Mazar is either Catholic or college educated, I am Marie of Romania.
 
Who’s Marie of Romania, and was she college-educated? 😃

I’ve read the thread, and conclude the following:

-Catholics claim infallibility, in terms of the doctrines
and dogmas of the Church, aka “that’s all she wrote.”
[not to make a pun]

Once that’s in place, all refutations of “challenges” become,
by logical necessity, circular.

Which case has absolutely nothing to do with whether
the doctrines and dogmas reflect theological reality.
They may or may not.

If you take Scripture, [which does enjoy the protection
of the Holy Spirit], and in which the Church was the
instrument, thru the Holy Spirit, of assemblage of same

Interpret that Scripture, in a given way [infallibilty trumps all comers]

State, infallibly, that this interpretation enjoys the protection of the Holy Spirit [like a credit card with no limit :)]
[After all, we assembled it, right? We *had the protection.]

You’re in the catbird seat.

The fact that all of this is a matter of faith, seems to
get lost in the intermural [occasionally, ecumenical]
hoe-downs.

reen12
 
John Mazar, hate to break it to you but you’re not Catholic. Give us a shout when/if you decide to convert.
 
A reasonable response to this question would be “which portions of the truth do you wish to avoid believing, and why?”

After all, one should not become Catholic unless one believes the Catholic Church has been given the fullness of truth.
 
All right. Usually i’d be pretty ticked at a post like this, which started out with one person trying to get a question answered, and ended up with a debate completly missing their point. However, it looks like the question was answered, so let the mindless debate continue

Purgatory… The basic concept of it implies that one cannot be completely washed clean by the blood of Christ alone, and must have something additional done to truly be forgiven. Christ paid the ultimate sacrifice, what more could be done?
As for “well, the church has had this doctrine for over 2000 years, and i’m glad they are sticking to the truth”… First of all, please don’t quote jesus in purgatory. To my knowledge, he never actually taught on the subject. Stick to what happened. secondly, don’t assume that just because christ created the church 2000 years ago, that it hasn’t gone astray? which amoung us can say that our life has been perfect since we have called jesus our lord? You’re right, the Church sticking to these doctrines could be a sign of moral strength, unbending to the tides of the secular world. On the other hand, this could be a kernel of corrupt doctrine that cannot be fixed due to an overly stubborn church.
 
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Egg4christ:
Purgatory… The basic concept of it implies that one cannot be completely washed clean by the blood of Christ alone, and must have something additional done to truly be forgiven. Christ paid the ultimate sacrifice, what more could be done?
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No, you’re right. We’re completely washed clean by his blood, once-and-for-all, from every type of sin and are free from all stain and effects of sin. That’s why at this moment you and all other Christians have absolutely no sinful tendencies whatsoever.
 
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Egg4christ:
All right. Usually i’d be pretty ticked at a post like this, which started out with one person trying to get a question answered, and ended up with a debate completly missing their point. However, it looks like the question was answered, so let the mindless debate continue

Purgatory… The basic concept of it implies that one cannot be completely washed clean by the blood of Christ alone, and must have something additional done to truly be forgiven. Christ paid the ultimate sacrifice, what more could be done?
As for “well, the church has had this doctrine for over 2000 years, and i’m glad they are sticking to the truth”… First of all, please don’t quote jesus in purgatory. To my knowledge, he never actually taught on the subject. Stick to what happened. secondly, don’t assume that just because christ created the church 2000 years ago, that it hasn’t gone astray? which amoung us can say that our life has been perfect since we have called jesus our lord? You’re right, the Church sticking to these doctrines could be a sign of moral strength, unbending to the tides of the secular world. On the other hand, this could be a kernel of corrupt doctrine that cannot be fixed due to an overly stubborn church.
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Oh dear. The idea that Purgatory detracts for the once for all sacrifice of Christ on the cross is a common misconception. Perhaps a review of paragraphs 1031, 142, 1475 and 1498 of The Catechism of the Catholic Church would be a place to start with correcting this erroneous view of Catholic teaching.

The suggested parallel between post-baptismal sin and the path of Catholic doctrine confuses two very different things. People in the Church may go astray and be stubborn. Magisterial teaching, however, stands in perfect integrity and appears stubborn only in the way gravity appears stubborn to a person who walks off a 10 story building in the belief that he will not plummet to the earth.
 
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