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Phillip_Rolfes
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But, as an Eastern Catholic, you know that the liturgical texts from nearly all the Eastern Catholic Churches for the Feast of the Dormition/Assumption proclaim that Mary did, in fact, die in imitation of her Son.
I was struck by that this very Sunday when we sang about it in the Maronite liturgical hymns for the Divine Liturgy of the Dormition.
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Anesti33
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It is interesting that I read in a document about the Scholastic opinion that Mary did die. It was in fact because they denied outright the Immaculate Conception, and reasoned that if she was subject to Original Sin, then she must have suffered death. So isn’t it peculiar that neither view won out, and was the Scholastic view sympathetic to the Eastern teachings or was it hostile to them? Incidentally, it is interesting that @Margaret_Ann uses the term “Original Sin” because the concept is different in the East, and not known by that name.Margaret_Ann:
But, as an Eastern Catholic, you know that the liturgical texts from nearly all the Eastern Catholic Churches for the Feast of the Dormition/Assumption proclaim that Mary did, in fact, die in imitation of her Son.
I was struck by that this very Sunday when we sang about it in the Maronite liturgical hymns for the Divine Liturgy of the Dormition.
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Montrose
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Let me be clear. Neither the death or otherwise of Mary nor Limbo for Infants has ever been a teaching of the Church.
It is not relevant what individuals over the centuries have said, including some Church Fathers. The ONLY thing that counts is what the Church actually teaches.
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Anesti33
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How would you define “teaching”?Anesti33:
Let me be clear. Neither the death or otherwise of Mary nor Limbo for Infants has ever been a teaching of the Church.
It is not relevant what individuals over the centuries have said, including some Church Fathers. The ONLY thing that counts is what the Church actually teaches.
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Montrose
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Not opinion and not theological hypothesis.
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Anesti33
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How would you positively define “teaching”?
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Montrose
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What is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is infallible teachings and non-infallible teachings plus disciplines.
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Anesti33
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Here is what I think. I think that you have conflated “teachings” and “definitions”. A definition is when the Church definitively proclaims some truth of the faith and defines exactly where the boundary of belief should be. Some would consider this to be a difference between “doctrine” and “dogma”. Some would consider a definition to be an exercise of infallibility. That would usually be correct.
A teaching, however, may be fallible, and it may also be opinion. Of course, if a teaching is opinion, it is necessarily fallible, because faithful Catholics may legitimately disagree with the opinion (e.g. Limbo and Mary’s death.) It’s not a definition until it’s defined, though. All definitions are teachings, but not all teachings are definitions. Are you with me so far?
A teaching, however, may be fallible, and it may also be opinion. Of course, if a teaching is opinion, it is necessarily fallible, because faithful Catholics may legitimately disagree with the opinion (e.g. Limbo and Mary’s death.) It’s not a definition until it’s defined, though. All definitions are teachings, but not all teachings are definitions. Are you with me so far?
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Anesti33
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That is a tautology. Of course teachings are teachings. Try harder.Anesti33:
What is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is infallible teachings and non-infallible teachings plus disciplines.
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Montrose
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You are wrong. Opinion, theological hypothesis, and pious traditions are NOT Church teachings.
Infallible and non-infallible teachings of the Church are in the CCC.
This is what Pope John Paul II said in his APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION FIDEI DEPOSITUM in the CCC:
" The Catechism of the Catholic Church , which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!"
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Anesti33
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Four Levels of the Church's Teaching | EWTN
EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.
www.ewtn.com
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Montrose
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Thank you. The three levels of Magisterial Teaching shown in that link:
- Dogma (binds Catholics)
- Doctrine (binds Catholics)
- Ordinary teachings of faith and morals and the Catechism of the Catholic Church spells out how Christians are to receive such doctrines (binds Catholics)
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Anesti33
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Yes, Mary’s death and Limbo belong to Level 3, and there is a fourth, teachings on discipline.
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Montrose
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First of all Discipline is not a teaching. It falls under Church Disciplinary Law and it is not doctrinal.
Disciplines we may disagree with but we must accept them, i.e. we are bound by them.
I would be really interested if you can show me in the CCC where there is a “teaching” about the death of Mary and a “teaching” about Limbo for Infants.
The reason I ask that is because Catholics are bound by all teachings contained in the CCC and I know we are not bound by the alleged death of Mary or Limbo for Infants.
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Isaac14
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Is this applicable to Latin-rite Catholics, or all Catholics including those belonging to Eastern-rite churches? I ask because those Eastern-rite Catholics just celebrated the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos, which most definitively asserts her death and almost immediate Resurrection of her by her Son. Just curious how that fits in to this question.
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Anesti33
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The technical answer would be that Byzantine Christians are free to believe that Mary did not die, but in reality, to pipe up with that in front of a priest, he would look at you as if you had just grown two extra heads.
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Isaac14
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It’s rather jarring, indeed, to go from millennia of tradition and testimony of early church fathers regarding Her blessed Dormition, to “well it’s optional 'cause we didn’t dogmatize as such”
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Montrose
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I am talking about the Latin Rite.
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Isaac14
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Is my understanding correct, then, that the lack of definition regarding the Dormition of the Theotokos only applies to Latin Catholics, and not those from Eastern-rite Churches?
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