A
adawgj
Guest
Probably the wording of things.
For example Mother of God
For example Mother of God
- Status
Well, the Lutheran reformers understood it.
From our confessions:
- On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. **Therefore she is truly the mother of God, **and nevertheless remained a virgin. *
However, your point is well taken. A better example might be “Mediatrix of All Graces”.
Jon
A
adawgj
Guest
Thanks for clarifying from the Lutheran perspective.
The one I posted probably works better for other branches of Protestants.
C
concretecamper
Guest
Can you explain, from a Lutheran perspective, what is the role of the communion of saints?
Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
Instead of me explaining it, here is a link to an excellent explanation.
trinitychurchandschool.com/communion-of-saints/
Jon
C
concretecamper
Guest
Thank you for the link. It is clear what the communion of saints is and how we experience them…but it does not explain if they have a role in the Church.
One role would be prayer. We pray for each other here. They in the Church Triumphant pray for us, the Church Militant.
Jon
N
NovusAugustus
Guest
One way non-Catholics may look at the worship we Catholics give to Mary is that she is actually the ideal human being. While Jesus was of course infinitely perfect, he was both God and Man. Mary, on the other hand, was only a weak human like all of us. She represents what an ideal Christian should be like. In some ways, she is indeed the first Christian because, like we modern Christians, her Original Sin was washed away–but for her it was done in her Immaculate Conception rather than in Baptism like for all of us. While Christ is of course the transmitter of our teachings and the object of our worship, it is Mary who provides the model for that worship. She submitted herself totally to the will of God. She humbly followed Christ and accepted his teachings, until her death (or not death, the Church permits us to decide for ourselves), when she was Assumed into Heaven. There, we give her the honorary title Queen of Heaven, in the tradition of monarchies where the mother of the reigning King (in this case, Jesus) retains the title of Queen. Our Lady guides, saves, and aids us by her example and her intercession, not any power of her own. Ultimately, our faith is one of receiving the teachings and will of the Lord, just as Mary did. That is why we call her our Mother, for she is the matriarch of all Christians by her perfect Christian example. That is also why the Church is given the feminine gender. The Church is the legacy of Mary until the end of ages.
D
Della
Guest
NovusAugustus, I very much like your: “The Church is the legacy of Mary until the end of ages.” 
After all, without her fiat there would have been no Redeemer, no Church, no salvation through her Son. Of course, God could have had something else in mind if Mary had said no–some other yet deeper way of humility to bring us back to himself. But since Mary said yes, we must recognize that without her we would not be who we are nor have what we have.
After all, without her fiat there would have been no Redeemer, no Church, no salvation through her Son. Of course, God could have had something else in mind if Mary had said no–some other yet deeper way of humility to bring us back to himself. But since Mary said yes, we must recognize that without her we would not be who we are nor have what we have.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
C
cmodrmac
Guest
It seems in regards to RC that the underlyinf current is that Protestants need to pay more attention to the Blessed Virgin than we do-
We honor Her as the God Bearer - she is considered a major Saint in our Church-what more do you want us to do?
We honor Her as the God Bearer - she is considered a major Saint in our Church-what more do you want us to do?
N
NovusAugustus
Guest
For me personally, the issue isn’t with the more traditional Christian communities. It is with the Baptists and Evangelicals who aggressively accuse Catholics of excessively honoring Mary, even though all Marian doctrines are plain truths in the eyes of any well-informed Christian.It seems in regards to RC that the underlyinf current is that Protestants need to pay more attention to the Blessed Virgin than we do-
We honor Her as the God Bearer - she is considered a major Saint in our Church-what more do you want us to do?
H
hn160
Guest
Living in the Bay Area of California, my wife and I go to the Mission Churches as much as possible. One thing that I noticed is that there is much more emphasis on Mary than on Christ. It is this very emphasis of Mary that causes jitters with Lutherans. As far as praying to her or to the Saints, there is no evidence that they hear us but I believe that they do pray for us.
E
EIF5A
Guest
[Bolded by me]
The explanation I always read is that Mary points to Christ…Mary does that, but it seems possible to ignore her pointing to Christ if we close off our minds and hearts to her true goal, which is her Son, and focus on her instead. That’s our fault, not Mary’s.
I still have never read a good explanation of what the practical difference is between latria and hyperdulia. If there was a sound understanding and firm establishment of what the differences are, there would be less jitters I think.
C
concretecamper
Guest
Is there a difference in the Church Triumphant praying for the Church Militant as a whole vs something more specific?
A number of years back I was diagnosed and treated for prostate cancer. Since then I have kept a likeness of St Peregrine in my wallet. While I do not pray to him, I do pray to God to hear his prAyers on behalf of those of us with cancer.
So, yes, I believe the prayers of the saints in Heaven can be specific
Jon
D
Della
Guest
With sincerity and in charity I have to ask, how does the Mission emphasize Mary more than Christ? Not in the Mass, surely. The whole of the Mass is centered around Christ, not Mary.
Do they pray the rosary before/after Mass? Here again, the emphasis is on Christ because the rosary follows his life through Mary’s experience of him.
Because they have statues of her? Aren’t there any of Jesus too?
Forgive me, but maybe it’s only your perception coming from a Protestant background in which Mary is hardly ever mentioned that it seems she is getting more attention than Christ, when in reality you are simply not used to her being part of your worship experience. Just a thought.
Worship offered to God is sacrificial in nature. It is only to God that we re-present the one sacrifice of Christ and to no one else. Merely praising a saint is not worship anymore than praising a good football player for being good at his game. We do not offer sacrifices to football players because they are good at passing or tackling or whatever else for which they may excel, but we do offer them praise for doing it well. Do you see what I mean?
B
believerdoc
Guest
I must point out that most Marian doctrines are not plain truths. Protestants, in general, honor Mary as the first and most perfect Christian witness who in complete obedience and surrender to God’s will accepted the great responsibility of becoming the mother of Jesus. Other Marian doctrine such as her Perpetual Virginity, Assumption, Intersession, and terms like co-redemptrix and mediator of all graces cause serious problems for us as they are not found in sacred scripture and therefore dependent upon Tradition and papal decree which we cannot accept. In addition they begin to place Mary and Jesus on a more equal level ascribing to her many attributes which should, in Protestant thought, belong only to Jesus. I think most Catholics feel that Protestants have something against Mary but in fact she is loved, honored, and held in highest respect by us; we love her too…just differently.
Y
YADA
Guest
You say they are not plain truths - but is that really an unbiased statement or does it flow from your point of view as a non-catholic 00 years into this great schism and from what you are taught?
Really - are you aware that all of the original Reformers held that Mary was a perpetual virgin? That this belief that she was not - is something that came out of the “Enlightenment” movement - which is hardly Christian in its very core … but that has been coupled with the point in time that the Church dogmatically declared the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary to deny what has been long held by all of Christianity … the fact that a dogmatic decree was made in a certain year does not mean that no Christian believed it prior to that point. Mary’s title as the Mother of God was the direct result of the Church fighting the Arian heresy - those that denied the divinity of Christ … when the Church theologically proved, declared and stated as an article of faith that Jesus had two natures - human and divine - then Mary has to be the Mother of God - she gave birth to Christ … your [ie Protestantism] turning away from authentic Christian belief has led to nothing but further division and bizarre beliefs - one example is Bishop Spong - who now says that Mary was not even a Virgin when she conceived Jesus - but that Jesus is most probably the result of a rape by a roman soldier
You are correct - this is only in Protestant thought - it is not Catholic in thought or practice … you made this up - like Bishop Spong … it sounds good when you say it - and the more you say it the more you believe it
- I don’t think you have something against Mary - I do not know you … but the vast majority of protestants * ignore Mary and relegate her to a vessel - an incubator - host that carried Jesus for 9 months and took care of him until he could enter into the world … and they believe that he held her in little esteem - referring to her as “woman” at the marriage feast in Cana and by saying that his family was those who believed and did what God commands - when told that his family was outside the tent and wanted to speak with him … trust me - those passages are used to show that Mary is not important - it may not be hate - but it is definitely not respect - and Protestants are not calling her “Blessed in every generation” -
This same type of faith and action is also what Jesus referred to when his family was outside the tent - Mary answered God’s call - Mary is Jesus’ mother and ours - He is her first born - we are his brothers by adoption - and He entrusted us to her while He was hanging on the cross … have you taken her into you home and cared for her - accepted her as your spiritual Mother? Shown her respect, look to her for guidance and advice?
Mary is the best example of discipleship we have to model our lives after …*
D
dronald
Guest
You say they are not plain truths - but is that really an unbiased statement or does it flow from your point of view as a non-catholic 00 years into this great schism and from what you are taught?
Really - are you aware that all of the original Reformers held that Mary was a perpetual virgin? That this belief that she was not - is something that came out of the “Enlightenment” movement - which is hardly Christian in its very core … but that has been coupled with the point in time that the Church dogmatically declared the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary to deny what has been long held by all of Christianity … the fact that a dogmatic decree was made in a certain year does not mean that no Christian believed it prior to that point. Mary’s title as the Mother of God was the direct result of the Church fighting the Arian heresy - those that denied the divinity of Christ … when the Church theologically proved, declared and stated as an article of faith that Jesus had two natures - human and divine - then Mary has to be the Mother of God - she gave birth to Christ … your [ie Protestantism] turning away from authentic Christian belief has led to nothing but further division and bizarre beliefs - one example is Bishop Spong - who now says that Mary was not even a Virgin when she conceived Jesus - but that Jesus is most probably the result of a rape by a roman soldier
You are correct - this is only in Protestant thought - it is not Catholic in thought or practice … you made this up - like Bishop Spong … it sounds good when you say it - and the more you say it the more you believe it
No Mary - No Jesus … Know Mary - Know Jesus … Mary always points to Christ … In Cana she told them to “do whatever He tells you” - good advice … At the annunciation she answered God’s request for her very life with “Let is be done unto me according to your Word” - the proper response we are to have for God’s call in our life.
- I don’t think you have something against Mary - I do not know you … but the vast majority of protestants * ignore Mary and relegate her to a vessel - an incubator - host that carried Jesus for 9 months and took care of him until he could enter into the world … and they believe that he held her in little esteem - referring to her as “woman” at the marriage feast in Cana and by saying that his family was those who believed and did what God commands - when told that his family was outside the tent and wanted to speak with him … trust me - those passages are used to show that Mary is not important - it may not be hate - but it is definitely not respect - and Protestants are not calling her “Blessed in every generation” -
This same type of faith and action is also what Jesus referred to when his family was outside the tent - Mary answered God’s call - Mary is Jesus’ mother and ours - He is her first born - we are his brothers by adoption - and He entrusted us to her while He was hanging on the cross … have you taken her into you home and cared for her - accepted her as your spiritual Mother? Shown her respect, look to her for guidance and advice?
Mary is the best example of discipleship we have to model our lives after …*
I can see that you’re very passionate about this. I wouldn’t say it’s an emotional thing for us though, we just want to make sure we’re always looking to Christ. If Catholics feel that looking to Mary is one way of looking to Christ that’s good. If Protestants feel more comfortable loving Mary and respecting her yet looking straight to Christ then that’s good too.
Romans 14 is quite beautiful and if more read it and understood it we would have greater unity.
- Status