What changed in 500 years?

[Reformed]

Even if they do not “actually” contradict one another… they create a set of paradoxes…in that the word “alone” means precisely that.
It is neither rational nor logical to have FIVE “alones” to make up anything, much less a set of theological beliefs.

This is a good deal of the problem I see with many non-Catholic religions or denominations. Too many “alones”… All of which are “man-made” traditions…something which non-Catholics take great delight in stating that Catholics do…and yet???

I also see many non-Catholics are being somewhat Quixotic in that they make great points ad infinitum about “sola scriptura”, yet often turn around and quote writings of the ECF’s… The majority of those writings they reference are not contained in the Bible, therefore…???

I’m not sure if you are getting my “drift”…but I am trying to say as politely as I can…that some non-Catholics are hypocrites. I am not necessarily pointing the finger at you…as its a general statement.

All regenerate Christians are hypocrites and recovering Pharisees. That is why it is so important to embrace the biblical gospel for entrance into the kingdom AND for the process of transformation (the journey; pilgrimage). We are all sinners in process being made into the image of Jesus to the glory of God through the power of God. The 5 solas are just like your Catholic creeds and confession in defining what Protestant Christians believe. In addition to the solas, Christians will have historic Confessions of Faith too. Do you disagree with all 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation and why? Don’t you at least agree on the very last sola?

Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

Soli Deo gloria is the teaching that all glory is to be due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through his will and action — not only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit. The reformers believed that human beings—even saints canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, the popes, and the ecclesiastical hierarchy—are not worthy of the glory that was accorded them. That is that one should not exalt such humans for their good works, but rather praise and give glory to God who is the author and perfecter of these people and their good works.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

 

[Reformed]

The Catholic church didn’t “cause” the Reformation, a simple ex-Catholic monk did, namely Martin Luther, the heretic.

Oh, even Catholics on this site know and posted that there were others before Martin Luther.

 

[Reformed]

Actually, the fracturing of Protestantism began less than ten years after it’s foundation, causing Luther to lament that there were nearly as many misunderstandings as there were heads.

If you read the reformers, you’ll find that modern Protestantism is further from what they taught than it is from Catholicism.

Please try to define modern Protestantism. I believe Protestantism is as diverse as modern day Catholicism. But God has His remnant inside these external divisions. Protestantisms and Roman Catholicism cannot save you. There is only one Savior, and it is not a religious institution or a systematic theology.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Please try to define modern Protestantism. I believe Protestantism is as diverse as modern day Catholicism. But God has His remnant inside these external divisions. Protestantisms and Roman Catholicism cannot save you. There is only one Savior, and it is not a religious institution or a systematic theology.

Catholicism teachings on faith remain essentially the same. What St. Ireneneus believed and St. Athanasius believed is the same as any Catholic believe. Even if such terms were not defined in those days.

I have witness Protestantism changing its doctrines hence its diverse divisions. Most practicing Catholic will tell you that they believe in the authority of the Church granted to her by Jesus Christ, and many Catholics who are FAITHFUL to the Church believe the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

Those Catholics who disagree with the Church teachings are heretics.

Catholicism is what decribes our faith because the Church is universal. It professes one faith in the One Lord Jesus Christ. Catholicism by definition cannot save. Only Jesus Christ saves. The Church mission is similiar to Christ, because the head of the Church is Jesus Christ. The mission of the Church is the salvation of souls for the building up of the church. God works through His Church by flowing his grace upon the Sacraments, which are use to save us.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Christianity by way is a religion. How would you distinguish it from the other two monotheistic faith.

 

[Reformed]

Catholicism teachings on faith remain essentially the same. What St. Ireneneus believed and St. Athanasius believed is the same as any Catholic believe. Even if such terms were not defined in those days.

I have witness Protestantism changing its doctrines hence its diverse divisions. Most practicing Catholic will tell you that they believe in the authority of the Church granted to her by Jesus Christ, and many Catholics who are FAITHFUL to the Church believe the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

Those Catholics who disagree with the Church teachings are heretics.

Catholicism is what decribes our faith because the Church is universal. It professes one faith in the One Lord Jesus Christ. Catholicism by definition cannot save. Only Jesus Christ saves. The Church mission is similiar to Christ, because the head of the Church is Jesus Christ. The mission of the Church is the salvation of souls for the building up of the church. God works through His Church by flowing his grace upon the Sacraments, which are use to save us.

Are only Catholics who disagree with official teachings heretics?
Would you say that Protestants and Orthodox are heretics too since they do not agree with the teaching of The Church of Rome? Will God save heretics?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are only Catholics who disagree with official teachings heretics?

Correct. The Council of Trent gives grounds for Catholics execommunication.

heresy is “theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition Catholic Church.”

A heretic is someone who believes in a heresy and has an opinion on certain teachings of the Church. A Catholic who believes abortion is ok is a heretic.

Would you say that Protestants and Orthodox are heretics too since they do not agree with the teaching of The Church of Rome?

Orthodox are Schismatics than heretics since they do not recognized the authority of the Pope. Protestants since their existence in the 1500s would be consider a cross between the two.

A Catholic who professes a teaching of the Church is more liable to the judgment seat of God than Non-Catholic because the truth has been presented to him.

Will God save heretics?

Depends on if the heretic truly sorry for his sins, only God can determine who saves.

 

[churchcamefirst]

Oh, even Catholics on this site know and posted that there were others before Martin Luther.

Er,… Catholics here know that Luther WAS THE FIRST to start the Reformation. Calvin and Zwigli came after, as did King Henry.
King Henry couldn’t stand Luther. He had written an important theological treatise against Luther. Henry was actually a devout Roman Catholic. If his daughter Mary was less vindictive, England would of remained Roman Catholic today. King Henry believed very much in the Body and blood of Christ in the Real Presence.

 

[Reformed]

Er,… Catholics here know that Luther WAS THE FIRST to start the Reformation. Calvin and Zwigli came after, as did King Henry.
King Henry couldn’t stand Luther. He had written an important theological treatise against Luther. Henry was actually a devout Roman Catholic. If his daughter Mary was less vindictive, England would of remained Roman Catholic today. King Henry believed very much in the Body and blood of Christ in the Real Presence.

There are many others before Martin Luther. I will give you a neutral source and a bias source:

“Martin Luther’s spiritual predecessors included men such as John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who had attempted to reform the church along similar lines, though their efforts had been largely unsuccessful.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

 

[Ignatius]

There is only one Savior, .

And He only founded, as He says in the Gospel, one Church. That Church is the Catholic Church.

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ.

catholicscomehome.org/epic/epic120.phtml

 

[Reformed]

And He only founded, as He says in the Gospel, one Church. That Church is the Catholic Church.

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/

Have you guys heard of a hyper-Calvinist? Maybe Ignatius is a hyper-Catholic?

If you woud like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please open your Bible. If you don’t own one, you can buy a Bible at your local Costco, Wal Mart, K Mart, or just order one on Amazon.com. You can also go to bible.com to learn more about Jesus. Please contact the folks at bible.com/

 

[Mannyfit75]

Have you guys heard of hyper-Calvinism? Maybe Ignatius is a hyper-Catholic?

If you woud like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please open your Bible. If you don’t own one, you can buy a Bible at your local Costco, Wal Mart, K Mart, or just order one on Amazon.com. You can also go to bible.com to learn more about Jesus. Please contact the folks at bible.com/

We have our own Bible and we have a complete Bible 46 OT and 27 NT as oppose to 66 Books in the Protestant Bible. Second, the Bible is not self-interpretating.

The Bible has to be read in the accordance to what the time, culture, and the what the sacred writers had to say, and it has to be read that is consistent with the Church’s teaching.

Ignatius of Antioch was the Bishop who was the disciple of St. John, the Apostle. He knew what he was talking about. His belief sounds very Catholic to me especially when it deals with the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

 

[Reformed]

We have our own Bible and we have a complete Bible 46 OT and 27 NT as oppose to 66 Books in the Protestant Bible. Second, the Bible is not self-interpretating.

The Bible has to be read in the accordance to what the time, culture, and the what the sacred writers had to say, and it has to be read that is consistent with the Church’s teaching.

Okay, what else can I say? I know I will get wrath from both Protestants and Catholics alike, but don’t LDS Christians say the same thing? If you don’t believe me, start sharing the Catholic gospel with LDS Christians on a forum site, or in person. I can already here the debate…we are the One True Church, no we are the One True Church… we have an unbroken line of apostolic succession,…no we have a unbroken line of prophet succession. Maybe the LDS Christians have you beat, since they go farther back than Peter.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

In 1829, Joseph Smith received the restored priesthood authority to organize Christ’s Church. John the Baptist appeared and conferred upon Joseph Smith and his associate Oliver Cowdery the Aaronic Priesthood?, which includes the authority to perform the ordinance? of baptism?. Later, Peter, James, and John (three of Christ’s original Apostles) appeared and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood? upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, restoring the same authority given to Christ’s Apostles anciently. In 1830, with this priesthood authority, the same Church of Jesus Christ that existed centuries ago was organized and restored to the earth by Joseph Smith.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Okay, what else can I say? I know I will get wrath from both Protestants and Catholics alike, but don’t LDS Christians say the same thing?

The problem with LDS is that they added books and added new doctrines.

Compared to Catholicism. The Books in the Bible included the Deutrocanonical Books which predates the time of Jesus Christ. The Deutrocanonical Books (7 Additional Books) are also found in the Eastern Orthodox Bible. They have 73 Books (more books than ours). Even the Ethopian Jews have Maccabbees in their Scripture.

The Deutrocanonical Book can be found in the Church Council such as the Council of Rome in 382 AD by Pope Damascus I, Council of Hippo 392 AD, and Council of Carthage 396 AD (I may got the date of Hippo and Carthage). These Councils list 46 or 47 OT testament text, and 27 NT.

The early KJV even have these books in their appendix and the Protestant Bible did not remove the 7 Deutrocanonical Canonical books until the late 1700 to early 1800 because it contradicted many of the doctrines (I’m not sure the exact date but was sometime around that time).

Second, the Protestant Biblical Scholars at the time cited for omitted the Deutrocanonical Books based from the Jewish Council (Non-Believers) in 90 AD Council of Jamnia which rejected the Scripture that was not written in Hebrew.

It’s odd this Council also deny Jesus as the Messiah and yet Protestants use this excuse to justify to remove the Septuagint / Deutrocanonical. They accept the Jewish Canon rather the Christian Canon of Scripture.

Compared to Mormonism, the Mormons just make up stuff and come up with new false doctrines like denying the Trinity.

 

[Mannyfit75]

In 1829, Joseph Smith received the restored priesthood authority to organize Christ’s Church. John the Baptist appeared and conferred upon Joseph Smith and his associate Oliver Cowdery the Aaronic Priesthood?, which includes the authority to perform the ordinance? of baptism?. Later, Peter, James, and John (three of Christ’s original Apostles) appeared and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood? upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, restoring the same authority given to Christ’s Apostles anciently. In 1830, with this priesthood authority, the same Church of Jesus Christ that existed centuries ago was organized and restored to the earth by Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith is just a false prophet. His revelation is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Church. You cannot possibly compare the Mormonism and Catholicism. It’s like comparing apple and oranges.

 

[Reformed]

The problem with LDS is that they added books and added new doctrines.

Compared to Catholicism. The Books in the Bible included the Deutrocanonical Books which predates the time of Jesus Christ. The Deutrocanonical Books (7 Additional Books) are also found in the Eastern Orthodox Bible. They have 73 Books (more books than ours). Even the Ethopian Jews have Maccabbees in their Scripture.

The Deutrocanonical Book can be found in the Church Council such as the Council of Rome in 382 AD by Pope Damascus I, Council of Hippo 392 AD, and Council of Carthage 396 AD (I may got the date of Hippo and Carthage). These Councils list 46 or 47 OT testament text, and 27 NT.

The early KJV even have these books in their appendix and the Protestant Bible did not remove the 7 Deutrocanonical Canonical books until the late 1700 to early 1800 because it contradicted many of the doctrines (I’m not sure the exact date but was sometime around that time).

Second, the Protestant Biblical Scholars at the time cited for omitted the Deutrocanonical Books based from the Jewish Council (Non-Believers) in 90 AD Council of Jamnia which rejected the Scripture that was not written in Hebrew.

It’s odd this Council also deny Jesus as the Messiah and yet Protestants use this excuse to justify to remove the Septuagint / Deutrocanonical. They accept the Jewish Canon rather the Christian Canon of Scripture.

Compared to Mormonism, the Mormons just make up stuff and come up with new false doctrines like denying the Trinity.

But doesn’t Sacred Traditon add more and more revelation like the Mormons too. They have their extra-biblical sources and you have your extra-biblical sources too.

 

[Reformed]

Joseph Smith is just a false prophet. His revelation is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Church. You cannot possibly compare the Mormonism and Catholicism. It’s like comparing apple and oranges.

Sure I can, they are both fruit. Hey, wasn’t fruit used in the garden which started all of this? Let’s do this for the rest of the night. I will read the entire book of Galatians, and why don’t you read Galatians tonight too. Then we can discuss it tomorrow.

 

[Mannyfit75]

But doesn’t Sacred Traditon add more and more revelation like the Mormons too. They have their extra-biblical sources and you have your extra-biblical sources too.

No. Sacred Scripture itself stems from Sacred Tradition. The NT is the testimony that the Gospel were spoken to us by the oral preaching of Jesus and the Apostles. These are not extra-Biblical.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are the Word of God. You cannot separate the two.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sure I can, they are both fruit. Hey, wasn’t fruit used in the garden which started all of this?

Mormonism is 19th Century man-made religion. Catholicism has its foundation on Jesus Christ when he build his Church upon Simon Peter. The Catholic Church is 2,000 yrs old.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sure I can, they are both fruit. Hey, wasn’t fruit used in the garden which started all of this? Let’s do this for the rest of the night. I will read the entire book of Galatians, and why don’t you read Galatians tonight too. Then we can discuss it tomorrow.

I have read Galatians and it does not support the man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I only believe in Sola Dei.