What Christian unity means to you? Please read carefully.

[mozart-250]

Manny:
There are things that I can and can not control.

I can not control the fact that at this time Christ’s church seems to be splintered across several ecclesiastical organizations. We can debate until the cows come home on what God designed and what God’s will is here; but at the end of the day it is what it is. Neither you and I can control this.

What I can control is managing my heart so that I am faithful to the location where God has called me to; while at the same time rejecting a spirit of denominationalism towards my brothers and sisters in Christ who have a different calling.

One thing that I really don’t like about Catholicism is that your insistence on being the one true church really leads to a spirit of denominationalism and yes arrogance at times that I have observed in action here (not to say that us Protestants don’t exhibit the same behaviour…but just to say that you can justify your behaviour through your theology). Just being honest here.

 

[Mannyfit75]

So teaching that the RC pope is not the head of the visible church or ever infallible is not false doctrine?

The Pope is the visible head of the visible Church. Jesus is also the supreme head of the Church both invisible and invisible.

The Orthodox teach that they alone are the one, true church and they alone have infallible teaching authority over the entire church.

The Eastern Orthodox believes that bear the four marks of the One Truth Church. It is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I do believe they are the same age as the Catholic Church because the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches are a part of the Five Patriarchates, Rome, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Alexandria. However, the Eastern Churches now include, Moscow, Ukrainian, and other Churches that are consider Eastern Orthodox.

The Catholic Church does indeed recognizes the validity of their sacraments and their priesthood. I do think in time, both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church will be the first to be united in the coming years. The talks in Ravenna, Italy in Oct 2007 made this very clear. More dialogue is needed to resolve theological issues.

In the end though, I believe the Holy Spirit will ultimately be the main factor of uniting the two Apostolic Churches, which have its foundations upon the Apostles.

The Roman Catholic Church says the same about themselves.

One of them is false or both of them are false.

If you cannot see that, I am sorry.

I believe that Catholic is the Fullness of Truth. I also believe Eastern Orthodox is only 90% of the Truth because they are not in full communion with the Pope. Once a decision is made in an Ecumenical Council by all the Eastern Orthodox Church decides to be in full communion to Rome like it was prior to the Schism, then it will happen. I don’t believe Eastern Orthodox is false. I just think the beliefs differ and are expressed differently than the Latin Rite Church. However, I firmly believe our beliefs are no different than the Eastern Orthodoxy. It’s just expressed differently.

Thank you for taking the opportunity to be offensive, but Christ says no such thing in any of the Scriptures I have read.

Of course, you cannot supply any such references, but I know you gotta talk like you can.

Now if only more Catholics were as honest as yourself and got that message out that that is what they really mean when they talk about Christian “unity” with others.

The Catholic definition of unity is this. That Jesus Christ’s be one, and that we should not have different set of beliefs. I don’t think the Bible says that we have no authority to cause division amongst the brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny:
There are things that I can and can not control.

I can not control the fact that at this time Christ’s church seems to be splintered across several ecclesiastical organizations. We can debate until the cows come home on what God designed and what God’s will is here; but at the end of the day it is what it is. Neither you and I can control this.

I don’t have control over this. But I do firmly believe the Holy Spirit will move all Christians to be members of One Church which Jesus Christ had intended since the beginning. His Church was not meant to be divided or splinter. I believe the Schism and the Reformation was the result of the sins of all Christians.

What I can control is managing my heart so that I am faithful to the location where God has called me to; while at the same time rejecting a spirit of denominationalism towards my brothers and sisters in Christ who have a different calling.

I have deep calling from God within me to bring all Christians to himself and unit the Church which was once One Church.

One thing that I really don’t like about Catholicism is that your insistence on being the one true church really leads to a spirit of denominationalism and yes arrogance at times that I have observed in action here (not to say that us Protestants don’t exhibit the same behaviour…but just to say that you can justify your behaviour through your theology). Just being honest here.

That problem is yours. The Catholic Church does affirmed for about 2,000 yrs that we are indeed the One True Church of Christ. I don’t believe the Church will reframe from turning her head the other way.

You might ask why I am so insist on Christian unity. I shall tell you. Jesus prayed to the Father asking that we, his believers, be one just as the Father and Jesus are one. Jesus also said that if there is a man sin against his brother, and doesn’t listen to him. He brings two or three witnesses. If he doesn’t listen, he instruct us to take it to the Church.

The issue we have here in division within Christianity into three parts, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. I do not believe God, the Father wanted his Son, Jesus Christ’s Church to be divided.

I do know one thing. Satan wants Christians to be divided. God doesn’t. I do believe that someday we will be one. That is why I keep insisting that more dialogue needs to be discussed at all levels on theological and moral issues. An agreement needs to set in order for unification to take into effect.

I’m not here to debate against the pros and cons of Catholics vs. Non-Catholic Christians. What I am trying to bring here is offer a chance for us to be One Church in Christ.

We are, members of the Mystical Body of Christ, but this Church is damage and wounded by divisions, and prides on all sides.

For once I am thankful that Pope Benedict XVI has done his best to bring reconciliation between the Christian Churches who are not in communion with us. This is a chance for us to work out our differences.

 

[paarsurrey]

I do believe that someday we will be one. That is why I keep insisting that more dialogue needs to be discussed at all levels on theological and moral issues. An agreement needs to set in order for unification to take into effect.

Hi

I agree with you. But then why are you not able to suggest some tangibel, reasonable and rational measures which others could understand and agree to do it faster.

Or is it, that your belief is not powerful enough?

I think you should try it full heartedly then others could come to your help.

Thanks

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi

I agree with you. But then why are you not able to suggest some tangibel, reasonable and rational measures which others could understand and agree to do it faster.

Unification takes patience and it may take years for it to happen.

Or is it, that your belief is not powerful enough?

I pray for Christian unity everyday.

 

[jmcrae]

Which church do you think will be the first one to admit that they are not the “one, true church” of Christ and that they have been teaching false doctrine to their people for the last 1000 years?

Well, it seems to me that, although they don’t say so in so many words, that the Eastern Orthodox believe that there are six holy catholic and apostolic Churches; not just one.

The one that both says and behaves as though there is only one holy catholic and apostolic Church is the one that we should all be members of, since it is clearly the one that Jesus was praying for in John 17.

The Catholic definition of Christian “unity” is that we all become Roman Catholics and obey the Roman Catholic pope.

This is true, yes.

Just out of curiousity, what would Christian unity look like, to you? Who would be the leader, if not the Pope? Or would there be any leadership structure at all? (And if there is a leader, then why not the Pope?) But if there were no leader, then how would unity be maintained?

Of course, we cannot find any such definitions of such unity in the Scriptures. As long as it is not placed in those words so everyone can thoroughly understand, there will continue to be further confusion with this issue.

John 21:15-19 seems clear enough, especially when read in the light of John 17 and Matthew 16. One shepherd, one flock. Not six - and certainly not several dozens or hundreds or thousands or whatever it is that we have in Protestantism these days.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Agreed.

No issue there.

Which church do you think will be the first one to admit that they are not the “one, true church” of Christ and that they have been teaching false doctrine to their people for the last 1000 years?

I can’t really say. For one I know only the Catholic Church claim to be the one Truth Church of Christ. The Eastern Orthodox also claim this as well. I don’t doubt both since both the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox have Apostolic origins. I can’t say the same much for Protestants since they did away with bishops, sacraments and apostolic succession.

The Catholic definition of Christian “unity” is that we all become Roman Catholics and obey the Roman Catholic pope.

No. The Catholic definition is to full Christ call for unity. If a Christian doesn’t want unity, he is working against the will of Christ himself. The Pope himself is only the servant of God, and the servant of the servants of God. He serves the people of God, who are Christians even those not in communion with him.

Of course, we cannot find any such definitions of such unity in the Scriptures. As long as it is not placed in those words so everyone can thoroughly understand, there will continue to be further confusion with this issue.

The confusion is the disagreements founded in the bases of Sola Scriptura. Disagreements which can be resolve by Ecumenical Councils.

Scripture made very clear that Church, which Jesus Christ established is one, united, one faith, one mind, one heart."

Acts 4:32: “The community of believers was of one heart and one mind …”

1 Corinth 1:10: “I urge you, brothers,** in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ**, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.”

Philippians 1:27: “…that you are standing firm in one Spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the Gospel, not intimidated in any way by your opponents.”

Philippians 2:2: "…complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking of one thing."

1 Peter 3:8: “Finally, all of you, be of one mind …”

This last verse (1 Peter 3:8) is most significant when it comes to orthodoxy, since as 1 Peter 1:1 shows us the Apostle is not writing to merely one city-church, but to a great many city-churches in a total of five separated provinces of the Roman Empire! Therefore, Peter is indeed speaking in a Catholic (i.e., universal) sense.

((continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus hates division in His Church. He made this case for the The Nicolatians.

Revelation 2:6 and 2:15-16 both condemn this heretical Asian sect, which was centered at Ephesus.

Rev. 2:6: “But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolatians, which I also hate.” (note: This is Jesus speaking)

Rev. 2:15-16: “Likewise, you also have some people who hold to the teachings of the Nicolatians. Therefore, repent. Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and wage war against them with the sword of my mouth (i.e., the Word of God).”
In the words of the Church historian Eusebius of Caesarea (drawing on St. Clement of Alexandria), here’s “the scoop” on the Nicolatians:

“At this time the so-called sect of the Nicolaitans made its appearance and lasted for a very short time. Mention is made of it in the Apocalypse of John. They boasted that the author of their sect was Nicolaus (i.e., Nicholas of Antioch), one of the deacons who, with Stephen, were appointed by the Apostles for the purpose of ministering to the poor (Acts 6:5). Clement of Alexandria, in the third book of his Stromata (c. 190 A.D. ), relates the following things concerning him: ‘They say that he had a beautiful wife, and after the Ascension of the Saviour, being accused by the Apostles of jealousy, he led her into their midst and gave permission to any one that wished to marry her. For they say that this was in accord with that saying of his, that one ought to ‘abuse the flesh.’ And those that have followed his heresy, imitating blindly and foolishly that which was done and said, commit fornication without shame. But I understand that Nicolaus had to do with no other woman than her to whom he was married, and that, so far as his children are concerned, his daughters continued in a state of virginity until old age, and his son remained undefiled. If this is so, when he brought his wife, whom he jealously loved, into the midst of the Apostles, he was evidently renouncing his passion; and when he used the expression, ‘to abuse the flesh,’ he was inculcating self-control in the face of those pleasures that are eagerly pursued. For I suppose that, in accordance with the command of the Saviour, he did not wish to serve two masters, pleasure and the Lord. But they say that [The Apostle] Matthias (Acts 1:26) also taught in the same manner that we ought to ‘fight against’ and ‘abuse the flesh,’ and not give way to it for the sake of pleasure, but strengthen the soul by faith and knowledge.’ So much concerning those who then attempted to pervert the truth, but in less time than it has taken to tell, it became entirely extinct.” (Eusebius of Caesarea, Historia Ecclesia, Book III, Chapter 29).

((Continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

Therefore, the Nicolatians were, at first, an extremist sect which promoted asceticism and denied all earthly pleasures (including marriage), so as to “fight against the flesh.” And, now that we know this, it becomes very clear who St. Paul is talking about in 1 Tim 4:1-5. Here, remember, Paul is writing to Timothy who is stationed at Ephesus (in Asia) – the same city-church referred to in Revelation 2:6. And St. Paul writes:

“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the Faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For, everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, because it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.”

So, Paul is clearly talking about the Nicolatians (or at least some early Gnostic sect) here. And he backs this up by telling Timothy (in the very next verse: 1 Tim 4:6):

“If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished on the words of faith and of the sound teaching you have followed.”

So, to be a Nicolatian was not to be an orthodox Christian. Because the Nicolatians denied marriage and earthly pleasures, they were “unsound,” and had “turned away from the faith,” being deceived by “demons.” Paul clearly says this above.

Therefore, even though the Nicolatians never denied the “fundamentals,” as invoked by modern Evangelicals, they were still judged to be heretics by the standards of the Apostles. Even though they still accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they were not of “one mind” with the rest of the Church.

And so, by Apostolic standards, as presented in SCRIPTURE, the Protestant world is heterodox and mutually heretical. They are not “of one heart and one mind,” as Scripture says the Church must be. They do not follow the principal set down by St. Paul in Ephesians 4:1-6:

“I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to PRESERVE UNITY of the Spirit through the bond of peace: ONE Body and ONE Spirit, as you were also called to the ONE hope of your call; ONE Lord, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism; ONE God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all.”

Final Remarks: Christian unity is very Biblical. Jesus** did not intend his Church to be a Church divided**. That is why I believe sooner or later, the Eastern Orthodox will reunite with the Catholic Church, and perhaps Protestant Churches which may have to revise their set of beliefs to conform to the calling of the Holy Spirit.

The only question is when this event will occur.

Christian unity has very little to do with submission to the Pope at all. It is the submission of Jesus Christ desire for all of us to be one. The Pope only wants what Jesus wants. You also need to understand the full meaning of what the Servant of the Servants of God is. This title is the highest title of the Pope.

I have to admit Protestant Leaders have to abandon Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides since these doctrines are not taught in the Bible. These two are taught by Martin Luther and the Fathers of the Protestant Reformers. It is not taught by the Apostles or Jesus Christ himself.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Jesus hates division in His Church.

Jesus deserves 99% of the blame for christian disunity. He & his apostles were too obscure on crucial matters of faith.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus deserves 99% of the blame for christian disunity. He & his apostles were too obscure on crucial matters of faith.

He is not to blame. He gave us His Church to settle any disagreement. However, the sins of men cause this disunity and division. Jesus and his Apostles are not at fault here. It is us not them to blame.

I think for the most part Ex-Catholics leave because they decided to go against the teachings set by the Catholic Church and go by their own conscious, and by their own free will, leave.

I think most Ex-Catholics, Protestant Reformers, & Schismatics, ignore this passage in Scripture. Jesus addressed this to his disciples:

Luke 10:16

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

and this:

Matthew 18:17:

"If refuses to listen to him, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

I don’t know how disobedience became acceptible by leaving the Church. It has no Biblical bases at all.

 

[AgnosTheist]

He is not to blame. He gave us His Church to settle any disagreement. However, the sins of men cause this disunity and division. Jesus and his Apostles are not at fault here. It is us not them to blame.

All major Schisms, Splits & Heresies would have been prevented had jesus said these 3 things:

• I am God.
• The Father, Son & Spirit are one in a Trinity.
• Peter, to you and your successors I give supreme authority on all matters of faiths and morals. And the Papacy shall have its seat in Rome.

Direct to the point. No beating around the bush. No obscure statements that are open to interpretation.

But nah, christians had to fill in on the short comings of Jesus. What jesus failed to do in the beginning, no prayer can fix in latter times.

I think for the most part Ex-Catholics leave because they decided to go against the teachings set by the Catholic Church and go by their own conscious, and by their own free will, leave.

I agree. Thats what I did.

 

[Mannyfit75]

All major Schisms, Splits & Heresies would have been prevented had jesus said these 3 things:

• I am God.
• The Father, Son & Spirit are one in a Trinity.
• Peter, to you and your successors I give supreme authority on all matters of faiths and morals. And the Papacy shall have its seat in Rome.

Direct to the point. No beating around the bush. No obscure statements that are open to interpretation.

But nah, christians had to fill in on the short comings of Jesus. What jesus failed to do in the beginning, no prayer can fix in latter times.

The Church defined these issues through the Councils already. It is the mere fact that you reject these as well as others who stir division are the disobedient one.

Jesus prayed all the time during his 3 year ministry. I rather find your view that Jesus is a failure rather offensive, AT. It isn’t his fault. He love us to a point that let us have free will. Free will is a gift, and many times this gift is abused by sinning. Only if Christians in the beginning remain obedience despite the sins of our fathers, we ought to stand firm what Jesus gave us. He gave us his Church, my friend. He promised will be with us always. I trust Jesus own words than any human being.

thats for the 72 diciples. According to the stories, the authority they recieved included some supernatural powers.

True.

You also left on your own accord. I remain Catholic because I know that when I die, I will be accountible to what I have done here on earth to include my obedience to the Church.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I think most Ex-Catholics, Protestant Reformers, & Schismatics, ignore this passage in Scripture. Jesus addressed this to his disciples.

thats for the 72 diciples. According to the stories, the authority they recieved included some supernatural powers. You know, had the popes been capable of such powers, 99% of christians would have been roman catholic. I know I would be.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Church defined these issues through the Councils already. It is the mere fact that you reject these as well as others who stir division are the disobedient one.

human opinions. its different hearing it from jesus himself.

 

[Mannyfit75]

thats for the 72 diciples. According to the stories, the authority they recieved included some supernatural powers. You know, had the popes been capable of such powers, 99% of christians would have been roman catholic. I know I would be.

There have been more than just popes who are given the gift of healing to include raising the dead, cursing the sick. People like St. Padre Pio and other saints not to mention the Apostles. These miracles happen to strengthen the the faithful.

Though these miracle are not as common as it was, we are challenge by overcoming temptations of this world.

Was you reason for leaving the Church the lack of your trust in Jesus Christ?

 

[Mannyfit75]

human opinions. its different hearing it from jesus himself.

You just ignore Luke 10:16 when the Church speaks in Ecumenical Councils, it is not the Church who speaks, it is Jesus Christ himself who speaks. The mere fact that you said human opinions only prove the fact that you ignore Jesus Christ’s own words.

I am done here with you, AT… I don’t think this thread does really concerns you. You aren’t Christian. You are Agnostic (correct me if I am wrong).

 

[ralphinal]

thats for the 72 diciples. According to the stories, the authority they recieved included some supernatural powers. You know, had the popes been capable of such powers, 99% of christians would have been roman catholic. I know I would be.

Jesus said to him, “Do you beleive because you see me? How happy are those who believe without seeing.” Oh wait, why am I answering Agnos? He knows this verse, and many more already.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus said to him, “Do you beleive because you see me? How happy are those who believe without seeing.” Oh wait, why am I answering Agnos? He knows this verse, and many more already.

By the words of Darth Vader, “I find your lack of faith, disturbing.” This applies to AT.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I also like to add in Matthew 18:20

“For were two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst of them.”

When the Bishops, and Popes are gather in Jesus’ Name. He is there. When Church Councils are invoke, they are done so with Jesus Christ’s name.

If you look at the entire passage in Matthew Chapter 18, it is Jesus addressing the disciples. The disciples are succeeded by the bishops of today.