What Church Is Most Biblical?

[Mannyfit75]

So you don’t just propagate things that are untrue but you also now are condemning people to hell as well. This just shows that through all of your Catholic propaganda, you have all but completely disregarded Scripture. I am not surprised.

We don’t disregard Scripture. We don’t pick and choose verse and chapters like Protestants do with their erroneous doctrines. The Catholic Church wrote the Bible. This is in your face historical facts.

 

[Mannyfit75]

but such divisions are mainly just a matter of administration, rather than doctrine.

catholics - protestants, you are all brothers with each other. your core beliefs are the same. excepting the JWs.

Catholic and Protestants don’t have the basic core beliefs. We believe Mary to remain a Virgin all her life. Protestants are not completely in agreement with that, if they had same core beliefs, they would have the same beliefs we do. They don’t. Yes they believe in the Trinity, yes they believe Jesus is the Promised Messiah and that he is God made flesh.

Protestant Theology is completely different than Catholic theology. Protestant Theology is more of a 1500 way of thinking created by the minds of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others. While Catholic teachings has the mindset of Jesus, His Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers, the Council Fathers, etc. Protestants, most of them but not all, are completely ignorant of historical Christianity.

If St. Justin Martyr, St. Ireneaus, St. Anathanasius, St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp were here today, they would totally be shock at the development of Protestant way of thinking… not to mention their type of worship services, and the failure to acknowledge the Real Presence of Jesus Christ…

 

[Mannyfit75]

i know that they have a monthly communion. is it supposed to be weekly?

Weekly like it said in Acts, and like those describe by the ECF especially St. Justin Martyr’s First or Second Apology Letter to Roman Emperor explaining the basic Christian worship. I posted here in the previous thread.

 

[BrewMax]

The Church then was Catholic, which consist of the Patriarchiates Churches, Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

Then the church wasn’t Catholic. This was the progression of the early church. The Orthodox church and the Catholic church known today did not yet exist in those times. To say that the Catholic church created the Bible is as wrong as saying that the Orthodox church created it.

 

[dosdog]

Then the church wasn’t Catholic. This was the progression of the early church. The Orthodox church and the Catholic church known today did not yet exist in those times. To say that the Catholic church created the Bible is as wrong as saying that the Orthodox church created it.

During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use, including the growing canon used by Christians. In order to combat the spreading Christian cult, rabbis met at the city of Jamnia or Javneh in A.D. 90 to determine which books were truly the Word of God.

They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures. This canon also excluded seven books (Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel) that Christians considered part of the Old Testament.

The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

Needless to say, the Church disregarded the results of Javneh. First, a Jewish council after the time of Christ is not binding on the followers of Christ. Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church—the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament. Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles and which were in the edition of the Bible that the apostles used in everyday life—the Septuagint
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.htm

 

[qui_est_ce]

Then the church wasn’t Catholic. This was the progression of the early church. The Orthodox church and the Catholic church known today did not yet exist in those times. To say that the Catholic church created the Bible is as wrong as saying that the Orthodox church created it.

:nope: Brew, you have been told over and over about this in the various threads you have visited. When you are proved wrong, you don’t respond, you just leave, go to another thread, and repeat your unhistorical claims. But for this thread’s sake, I will repeat, :yawn: and hope to get an ON TOPIC response from you.

If the church wasn’t Catholic, what was it? To which Church was St. Ignatius referring in 110 AD?

The combination “the Catholic Church” (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110. The words run: “Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church.” Newadvent.org

newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

To which Church was St. Augustine referring?

*The use of the term “Catholic” to distinguish the “true” Church from heretical groups is found also in Augustine who wrote:

"In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.
"And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
“Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should … With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me… No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion… For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
— St. Augustine (354–430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith[4]. *

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

Catholic and Orthodox were one Church until Schism in 1054.

Brew, you would have a lot more credibility if you would read your history before making unsupported statements.

Better to keep quiet and be thought ignorant than to open your mouth and confirm ignorance.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Catholic and Protestants don’t have the basic core beliefs. We believe Mary to remain a Virgin all her life.

when i said core what i mean is ‘essential to salvation’. belief in mary’s perpetual virginity is not a requirement to salvation, is it?

Protestant Theology is more of a 1500 way of thinking created by the minds of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others. While Catholic teachings has the mindset of Jesus, His Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers, the Council Fathers, etc. Protestants, most of them but not all, are completely ignorant of historical Christianity.

You are suggesting that protestants dont have the mindset teachings of jesus & the apostles? Arent you being a little narrow minded?

If St. Justin Martyr, St. Ireneaus, St. Anathanasius, St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp were here today, they would totally be shock at the development of Protestant way of thinking… not to mention their type of worship services, and the failure to acknowledge the Real Presence of Jesus Christ…

Ive heard protestants say that jesus & the 12 apostles are shocked by what catholicism had become. to each his own, my friend.

Weekly like it said in Acts, and like those describe by the ECF especially St. Justin Martyr’s First or Second Apology Letter to Roman Emperor explaining the basic Christian worship. I posted here in the previous thread.

Thats one point for catholicism.

 

[AgnosTheist]

To say that the Catholic church created the Bible is as wrong as saying that the Orthodox church created it.

But the Catholic Church did play a major role in shaping it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Then the church wasn’t Catholic. This was the progression of the early church. The Orthodox church and the Catholic church known today did not yet exist in those times. To say that the Catholic church created the Bible is as wrong as saying that the Orthodox church created it.

It the Catholic Church. The first recorded word of to describe Jesus’ Church as Catholic was in 107-110 AD when St. Ignatius of Antioch, the Disciple of St. John, the Apostle said:

Chapter 8: Let nothing be done without the bishop.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the New Testament canon.

The** African Synod of Hippo, in 393**, approved the New Testament, as it stands today,** together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419**. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed. Pope Damasus I’s Council of Rome in 382, if the Decretum Gelasianum is correctly associated with it, issued a biblical canon identical to that mentioned above, or if not the list is at least a sixth century compilation.

Likewise, Damasus’s commissioning of the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible, c. 383, was instrumental in the fixation of the canon in the West.[13] In 405, Pope Innocent I sent a list of the sacred books to a Gallic bishop, Exsuperius of Toulouse. When these bishops and councils spoke on the matter, however, they were not defining something new, but instead “were ratifying what had already become the mind of the Church.” Thus, from the fourth century, there existed unanimity in the West concerning the New Testament canon (as it is today), and by the fifth century the East, with a few exceptions, had come to accept the Book of Revelation and thus had come into harmony on the matter of the canon. Nonetheless, a full dogmatic articulation of the canon was not made until the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism.

My friend, The Christian Church split in 1054 AD which turn. This made two Christian community, Catholic Church in the West under the Pope, and Eastern Orthodox Church in Constantinople. The Church back then before the break consisted of 5 Patriarchiates, Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople. Together these 5 major Christian Churches as one form One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Each Church had its own bishops. The Bishop of Rome, is consider, the First Amongst Equals.

So my friend, you are wrong. It is historically inaccurate to claim that the Church had little or no part in the canonization of Scripture or the Bible. You better start reading Christian History with an open mind…

 

[Mannyfit75]

when i said core what i mean is ‘essential to salvation’. belief in mary’s perpetual virginity is not a requirement to salvation, is it?

It is part of Divine Revelation. The ECF believed in it. The Protestants find themselves as the minority because only in two Christian Churches that maintains this belief, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

It is required because to deny it would be to question Divine Revelation itself. This belief was handed down to us from the Apostles and their successors.

You are suggesting that protestants dont have the mindset teachings of jesus & the apostles? Arent you being a little narrow minded?

I’m only speaking the truth. Protestants pick and choose Chapter and verses and they don’t take into account the fullness of Divine Revelation. For 2,000 yrs Christians have used 7 Deutrocanonical Books as part of Scripture. Protestants put it in their appendix (in the end of the Bible), but finally removed it. These books were used by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. They don’t have the mindset of Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and their successors.

Ive heard protestants say that jesus & the 12 apostles are shocked by what catholicism had become. to each his own, my friend.

I heard Protestant converts to the Catholic Church say. The Early Church was Catholic in their belief.

Thats one point for catholicism.

Catholicism is the Only Church established by Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is Biblical Church. Protestants have missing 7 books in the OT. You call this Biblical when they omitted those books for 1500 yrs? That’s Un-Biblical.

I also like to point out that when Paul in 2 Tim 3:16:

16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice.

Protestants use this justify Sola Scriptura. It’s very odd that when Paul wrote it. The Scripture in the OT included those 7 Deutrocanonical Books. How can they be Biblical since modern Protestantism omitted them?

 

[AgnosTheist]

It is required because to deny it would be to question Divine Revelation itself.

Are you sure?

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him, and believeth that his mother never had sex, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

Protestants pick and choose Chapter and verses and they don’t take into account the fullness of Divine Revelation

they are throwing the same accusations at you. the way i see it, you are both using the same verses, but differ in interpretation. Jesus should really send us an angel to clear things up.

These books were used by Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

like how?

I heard Protestant converts to the Catholic Church say. The Early Church was Catholic in their belief.

i dont think its wise to use converts as a reference. like catholic converts into islam have said a lot of bad things about you.

Catholicism is the Only Church established by Jesus Christ.

If only Jesus & his immediate followers mentioned “catholicism”.

Therefore, it is Biblical Church. Protestants have missing 7 books in the OT. You call this Biblical when they omitted those books for 1500 yrs? That’s Un-Biblical.

how much of those 7 books are catholics following? purgatory, what else?

Protestants use this justify Sola Scriptura. It’s very odd that when Paul wrote it. The Scripture in the OT included those 7 Deutrocanonical Books. How can they be Biblical since modern Protestantism omitted them?

The jews dont recognize them as divinely inspired.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are you sure?

John 3:16

I am very sure.

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him, and believeth that his mother never had sex, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

Let me just put it this way. The belief in virginity of Mary is essential because this belief confers that Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, and that she had no other children after Jesus was born. One point is in Luke when Jesus was twelve years old and went to the temple with his parents in Jerusalem. There were no mention of any younger brother or sister.

The Bible does mention brothers and sisters of the Lord. However, these are his cousins or kinsmen. There is no Aramaic or Hebrew word for cousin so instead when the Gospel writers wrote it, brothers were use instead.

At the foot at the cross, when Jesus was dying, he gave John his Mother. If he did in fact have brother or sister, he would be wouldn’t comission John to be the son of His mother. The belief that Mary had other children is not found in any early Christian patristic sources.

they are throwing the same accusations at you. the way i see it, you are both using the same verses, but differ in interpretation. Jesus should really send us an angel to clear things up.

The Church guided by the Holy Spirit is enough because Jesus told his Apostles, that they taught in all truth.

like how?

The Book of Tobit. In the Book, it tells of a woman married to seven men, and they all died. The Sadducees made this reference when they debated with Jesus concerning the the resurrection also include a woman married to seven men.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

i dont think its wise to use converts as a reference. like catholic converts into islam have said a lot of bad things about you.

It’s their testimony.

If only Jesus & his immediate followers mentioned “catholicism”.

He did. He said to this Apostles that they spread the Gospel throughout the Ends of the earth. This is worldwide, universal.

how much of those 7 books are catholics following? purgatory, what else?

Christians used them in the first Century

The jews dont recognize them as divinely inspired.

Neither did they recognized Jesus as the promised Messiah. In the Council of Jamnia, they rejected Scripture not written in Hebrew, rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and his teaching to be heretical.

I find it ironic that Protestants accept the reasons of the Jews, who themselves rejected Christ.

 

[allischalmers]

Nope, the Church did not the Baptist. Baptist didn’t exist then. It was the Council of Carthage 392 AD, Council of Hippo 396 AD. The Church then was Catholic, which consist of the Patriarchiates Churches, Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

Jesus, Paul, James, John, and Peter were all Baptist

 

[qui_est_ce]

Jesus, Paul, James, John, and Peter were all Baptist

Dear All,
Do you not read the thread before posting? What do you have to say to the following, which I posted earlier?

Then why does St. Ignatious call them Catholic?

To which Church was St. Ignatius referring in 110 AD?

The combination “the Catholic Church” (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110. The words run: “Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church.” Newadvent.org

newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

To which Church was St. Augustine referring?

The use of the term “Catholic” to distinguish the “true” Church from heretical groups is found also in Augustine who wrote:

"In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.
"And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
“Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should … With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me… No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion… For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
— St. Augustine (354–430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith[4].

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

Catholic and Orthodox were one Church until Schism in 1054.

you would have a lot more credibility if you would read your history before making unsupported statements.

Better to keep quiet and be thought ignorant than to open your mouth and confirm ignorance

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus, Paul, James, John, and Peter were all Baptist

Nope. They were Jews first. The only Baptist, I know is John the Baptist, Son of Zechariah and Elizabeth. Second, in Antioch, the believers of Jesus Christ were called Christians for the first time, not baptists.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Nope. They were Jews first. The only Baptist, I know is John the Baptist, Son of Zechariah and Elizabeth. Second, in Antioch, the believers of Jesus Christ were called Christians for the first time, not baptists.

This is so typical. “All” was on several threads making the same claims and then leaves. I guess he got us all stirred up!

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is so typical. “All” was on several threads making the same claims and then leaves. I guess he got us all stirred up!

It makes me wonder if allischalmers is even bothering to read the posts. He just seem to ignore it…

 

[AgnosTheist]

Let me just put it this way. The belief in virginity of Mary is essential because this belief confers that Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, and that she had no other children after Jesus was born.

i need a second, third & 4th catholic opinion about this. (or perhaps you can quote the cathechism to support you). but before I make the thread, let me clarify one more time: are you saying that a christian who believes that mary had sex after giving birth to jesus is forfeiting his chances for salvation?

The Book of Tobit. In the Book, it tells of a woman married to seven men, and they all died. The Sadducees made this reference when they debated with Jesus concerning the the resurrection also include a woman married to seven men.

First of all it was the saducees idea, not Jesus. Second in the Saducees’ scenario there were only seven husbands. In Tobit however the woman got healed by an angel, so obviously she married an 8th guy. Else the healing would have had no meaning.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

maccabess was referring to the cleansing and repair of the defiled temple. got nothing to do with what jesus said.

He did. He said to this Apostles that they spread the Gospel throughout the Ends of the earth. This is worldwide, universal.

LOL! You are stretching it, buddy. Its like saying that since the apostles are submitters to God therefore they are muslims. muslim means submitter. ok ok! maybe i will agree that the Apostles were Catholic Muslims! And the great commission was a practice that is Islamic Catholic! Right?

Christians used them in the first Century

early christians were divided on the use of these references.

Neither did they recognized Jesus as the promised Messiah.

You forget, the pillars and foundations of early christianity were initially composed of 100% jews.

please, quit that age-old childish excuse already. blaming the jews for not accepting jesus. oh my goodness.

 

[qui_est_ce]

please, quit that age-old childish excuse already. blaming the jews for not accepting jesus. oh my goodness.

I wouldn’t mess with this guy if I were you. He knows his stuff. Your replies just look stupid here. You are smarter than that.

Give him some respect, look at his location. Makes the rest of use sitting in our cushy little offices posting on company time look like wimps.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I wouldn’t mess with this guy if I were you. He knows his stuff.

yeah he does know some surprising stuff.

Your replies just look stupid here. You are smarter than that.

nobodys perfect.

Give him some respect, look at his location. Makes the rest of use sitting in our cushy little offices posting on company time look like wimps.

yikes! whats he doing there???